The Greatest Miltary Commander

[Ihoe]

On the Logical Side, there is no definition of great, therefore it is considered to be "Close to Flawless", and since all Major Leaders Mentioned (Except Saladin, Sun-Tzu, and maybe Julius Caesar) had Major Flaws, I'll be choosing the trio above. but one must add some others as well.

 

[VERY BOLD TEXT] Winston Churchill [/VERY BOLD TEXT]

(the two faced basterd, made hitler look like boogey man, not that it's any of your business...)

 

Cyrus the Great

(who conquered the Median Empire, Neo-Babylonian Empire, Lydian Empire and Asia Minor founding the Achamenid Persian Empire.)

 

Ariobarzan

(Persian satrap. He commanded 700 Persian immortals who fought against Alexander the Great at the Battle of the Persian Gate. In this battle Ariobarzan successfully held the army of Alexander at bay for 30 days. Some historians have described him as the Leonidas of Persia.)

 

Shapur I

(conquered the Mesopotamian fortresses Nisibis and Carrhae and advanced into Syria. But was defeated by Timesitheus at the Battle of Resaena in 243. He defeated Roman emperor Philip the Arab at the Battle of Misiche. In 253 he defeated Roman Emperor Valerian at the Battle of Barbalissos. This resulted in the conquest of Armenia and invasion of Syria, and he plundered Antioch. Valerian marched against him, but was defeated and captured at the Battle of Edessa by Shahpur I. The outcome of the battle was an overwhelming victory, with the entire 70,000-strong Roman force being slain or captured. was King since he was born.)

 

Flavius Belisarius

(one of the greatest generals of the Eastern Roman or Byzantine Empire.)

 

Guan Yu

(Legendary for his loyalty and martial prowess, and deified as the God of War in the Sui Dynasty.)

 

Alaric I

(defeated several Roman armies and sacked the city of Rome.)

 

Ramesses II

(Greatest pharaoh of egypt.)

 

Attila the Hun

(Blood sucking basterd, referred as "Scourge of God" by the Romans.)

 

my 2 Dollars, sorry, let them keep the change.

[species5478]

HANNIBAL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxVKD_YTs2A&feature=related

[DariusMoranda]

I have done a brief census of the candidates for The Greatest Military Commander.

 

CURRENT STRATEGIC CANDIDATES

 

Sun Tsu

Leonidas of Sparta

Epaminondas of Thebes

Alexander the Great

Hannibal Barca

Publius Scipio Africanus

Gnaeus Pompey Magnus

Surena of Parthia

Gaius Juluis Caesar

Saladin

Genghis Khan

Napoleon Bonaparte

Adolf Hitler

 

CURRENT TACTICAL CANDIDATES

 

Achilles - (Champion)

Lord Cochrane -(Admiral)

Robert E Lee - (General)

Erwin Romel - (Field Marshall)

Von Paulus - (Field Marshal)

Vasiliy Cuikov - (Field Marshal)

Nguyen Giap - (General)

 

EDIT: If anyone feels that someone has been left out, post or pm and I'll add them to the list. In a about a week I'll set up a poll and we will see if anyone was convinced by an other's dissertation.

 

Great list,almost leaves no room to add anyone else,and includes many of my personal favorites,great job. :thumbsup:

 

I will add here a few more names,who fits my taste,maybe they will find their place in the dream-team,though,as I've said,the candidates list is already great.

 

General Mikhail Ilarionovich Kutuzov of Russian Empire-the guy who made Napoleon to cry(several times)

 

Tzar(Emperor) Dushan of Serbia-with him,Serbia reached it peak in every way,and he was known as the most powerful leader in his time,in the whole Europe.

 

Suleiman The Magnificent,Ottoman Sultan-we forgot this guy,where to start and where to finish with his accomplishments..

 

Vojvoda Zivojin Misic 5 wars in less then 20 years,more then 40 battles,neither one loss,no mistake with him http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BDivojin_Mi%C5%A1i%C4%87

 

Carlos or Charles I of Spain-again,a brilliant man,his biography should be a school text book as a stand alone.

 

Field Marshal William Slim of the British army-a legend

 

General Winfield Scott of US Army-perfecto-brillian military record,dedication,discipline,extrenmely long service,mexican campaign,several book publishings on tactics and translations.Grandad rocked.

 

I look forward to see the pole,friend,good subject and interesting views by various people seen. :thumbsup:

 

Moranda

[SilverDNA]

I have done a brief census of the candidates for The Greatest Military Commander.

 

CURRENT STRATEGIC CANDIDATES

 

Sun Tsu

Leonidas of Sparta

Epaminondas of Thebes

Alexander the Great

Hannibal Barca

Publius Scipio Africanus

Gnaeus Pompey Magnus

Surena of Parthia

Gaius Juluis Caesar

Saladin

Genghis Khan

Napoleon Bonaparte

Adolf Hitler

 

CURRENT TACTICAL CANDIDATES

 

Achilles - (Champion)

Lord Cochrane -(Admiral)

Robert E Lee - (General)

Erwin Romel - (Field Marshall)

Von Paulus - (Field Marshal)

Vasiliy Cuikov - (Field Marshal)

Nguyen Giap - (General)

 

EDIT: If anyone feels that someone has been left out, post or pm and I'll add them to the list. In a about a week I'll set up a poll and we will see if anyone was convinced by an other's dissertation.

 

Great list,almost leaves no room to add anyone else,and includes many of my personal favorites,great job. :thumbsup:

 

I will add here a few more names,who fits my taste,maybe they will find their place in the dream-team,though,as I've said,the candidates list is already great.

 

General Mikhail Ilarionovich Kutuzov of Russian Empire-the guy who made Napoleon to cry(several times)

 

Tzar(Emperor) Dushan of Serbia-with him,Serbia reached it peak in every way,and he was known as the most powerful leader in his time,in the whole Europe.

 

Suleiman The Magnificent,Ottoman Sultan-we forgot this guy,where to start and where to finish with his accomplishments..

 

Vojvoda Zivojin Misic 5 wars in less then 20 years,more then 40 battles,neither one loss,no mistake with him http://en.wikipedia....Mi%C5%A1i%C4%87

 

Carlos or Charles I of Spain-again,a brilliant man,his biography should be a school text book as a stand alone.

 

Field Marshal William Slim of the British army-a legend

 

General Winfield Scott of US Army-perfecto-brillian military record,dedication,discipline,extrenmely long service,mexican campaign,several book publishings on tactics and translations.Grandad rocked.

 

I look forward to see the pole,friend,good subject and interesting views by various people seen. :thumbsup:

 

Moranda

I think in the CURRENT STRATEGIC CANDIDATES category there is some one overlooked / missing I want to add because of his first views of military sociology and what can bring down a great commander in person. His views were very popular in in the 30's the the last century.  

 

His name: Yamamoto Tsunetomo (Hagakure, The Book of the Samurai)

 

SilverDNA

 

 

[DariusMoranda]

Suleiman The Magnificent-

 

This man was born under a lucky star,I think.He was an honored man as first to say,with various interests aside from warfare,and the most interesting thing of all,is that he didn't even started his career as a tough as nail.He was known as a very communicative man,always up for a conversation about serious subjects,studying the same and most of all-collecting and learning about various art branches,especially painting and writing.He wrote and published many poem collections in his youth,while his father,Selim I,was still alive.Very intelligent and capable,he began with his education in theology,science,literature and military tactics at the age of 7.He admired Alexander The Great pretty much,because of Alexander's vision of how the real empire should look.When his father Selim died,who was a vicious man,very quick and very rough when it comes to decisions,Suleiman immediately started to show his true face-a conqueror in the real meaning of the word.He first took on destroyed potential opponents,especially the rogues from Ottoman politics in the puppet states,such was a case in Damascus.He ransacked Bulgaria,following Romania and Serbia,in Serbia he took the capitol Belgrade(the city where I live),and within that move,he secured his way open to Hungary and the whole Europe was in danger.Then he stopped there,turned his way on Greece surprisingly and smashed Knight Hospitalers in greek Island of Rhodes(Rodos).I think that move was a pay for respect to his late father who died at the preparations for a campaign against Rhodes,probably of anthrax or,as some says,a posion vial,maybe,due to fear he spread through his servants and vezirs.

He liked navy very much and that was his first reform he did in Ottoman Empire,a complete rebirth of the military navy.Sent about 350-40 ships and around 100 000-120 000 skirmishing grops and light infantry,ayas,ground akinchis,azaps and janissars,and besieged the Rhodes for almost half a year,making Knights to wave the white flag and to surrender.He did an honored move by not killing them but to release them to go,never to come back.(If there was Selim instead of his son here,I think we would read about heads on spikes,kilometers long).Then it came the Habgsburg Empire,who were first crushed in Buda,then regained their control there,while Ottomans regrouped,resuplied and went on a half counter ,which led to the Great Siege Of Vienna,and one of the most important and largest battles in history,and the only one where Sultan Suleiman had his defeat.Here in slavic world,this small war is called 'Morejski Rat'.Fortunatly for the whole Europe,Ottomans lost it,otherwise,they would conquere the whole god damn thing,lol.Nothing could stop them back then,only alliance in between various states,such was The League who stopped them at the walls of Vienna.Even Serbia and the rest recovered and used that battle to gather bits and pieces and attack from the flanks and the back.Though,almost endless number of reserves Ottomans had in their conquered lands and back in Turkey was the ace in the sleeve.Not to mention the total domination on the seas,aspecially in Mediteran,under admiral Barbarossa Hayredin,also a brillian naval commanderand a personal favorite of the Sultan.Even though,Ferdinand tried to sting Buda again,they were humiliated for the second time and forced to treaty,but yet again,Ottomans never came close to Europe ever again in history afterwards of this battle,which was a goal of the league,which was formed in a hurry literally,because of an explosive advance of the Turks towards Central Europe and it's borders.Then it came time for Persians to fall under Ottoamn power,in Turk-Savafid wars,Suleiman was successful again,marching in Baghdad and made Iran Shakh to run and his general to give the keys of the city to the turks,Persians tried to flank them out for a bit,and they succeded in it for some time,by luring Suleiman's army in Caucasus,through Armenia,but nonethless,Turks secured Mesopotamia,Baghad and all the important strategic spots of Persians,giving them a check-mate for good.Then India came in the order,giving almost none of the response in the battle matter,but heavy battles were at the rise in the Indian Ocean,between Portuguese and Turk navak forces.Suleiman captured Aden,the trade route from India leading to the shores of the Western Europe was overtaken and secured.Another win.He later gave a military support to Indonesians against Portugals,as well,completely driving them out of Indian Ocean and India.

Mediteran and North Africa-Where to start and where to finish?Disaster on every step for the Spain and the Holy Roman Empire and Francis's Franco Empire.Though Charles V was a fair opponent,nonethless,all together were outmatched,first on the sea,then in the Habsburgs puppet colonial staes in Northern Africa,Algeria,Moroccoevery state fell under the Suleiman's power,becoming barbary states and were annexed and became a strong fortification for the Turks and a well strategic point in later clashes between Charles or Carlos V of Spain and Roman Empire.Barbarossa again smacked and burned on the sea,controlling the read sea,Persian Gulf,etc,Battle of Prevezis was a major defeat for the westerns.Suleiman even go nasty on Nice,started to dig here and ther,wherever he wanted,even nali and Sicilia in todays Italy,and Francis couldn't manage to fight back,so he signed a pact with ottomans,giving a first allienment between Ottomans and europians.The the Great Siege of Malta where Knight Hospitalers escaped the knife,years ago from Rhodes.Defeated again. In Suleimans reign,some historians says that he helf 1/4 of the entire earth.

 

This guy deserves to be in top 5,even an arch enemy of my people,I have no choice then to salute to all of this.

 

Not to mention his artistic soul and his wondeful poetry.And he was a strange kind for a rough Turkey back then,pretty much open minded then his predecors.He even married a harem girl,which was a :ohmy: back then,breaking the tradition,older then Metusalem,and he treated his Sultaness as a goddess above all.The girl was of serbo/ruthenian(ukrainian) origin,slavic pure blood,which was another precedent and schocking thing he did.Cultural achievements?Endless list,schools,universities and reforms in educations were growing like mushrooms after the rain.Literacy percent was raised by astonishing 40 % in less then 10 years for those times.Justice was served in more modern ways,laws were written by his own hand,Turkey became to look more modern then Rome itself,almost.He gave rights to the christians who worked for feudal sipahis(nobility and the most elite cavalry at the same time),taxes were payed to them too,and with it he raised their social status to citizens ,they were not basically slaves anymore.Hundreds of good things there.His poems,just to add,were 90% romantic and pointed to his Hurrem Sultan wife.

 

He made one more precedent as a young men,by befriending with a former slave who became his most trsutful advicor later,Ibrahim Pasha,who was greek orthodox,but converted and was dervish.

 

Suleiman The Magnificent as he was known in the Europe,and Lawbringer in his native country was one of the greatest conquerors of history and one of the greatest reformers,as well,with facts proven through his historical accomplishments and the time of his reign,which is the longest every in history of Turkey-46 years of active reign,from the date of death of Selim The Fearsome,til the date of his very death.

 

 

I will write about others tomorrow,my fingers hurt,this one required the most words,as he is probably the biggest cat out of the group I mentioned.

 

 

Moranda

 

PS sorry if I forgot to add some details,may somene fill the possible holes in this by adding something that I missed.

[Surenas]

Much ado about nothing!

Next time, my friend, you'll better make it short, for we don't need the complete vita of every turban, guess so.

A few sentences do nicely as well. Thank you! :thumbsup:

[DariusMoranda]

Much ado about nothing!

Next time, my friend, you'll better make it short, for we don't need the complete vita of every turban, guess so.

A few sentences do nicely as well. Thank you! :thumbsup:

 

1.I assume that you think that I am of the turkish origin.I am not,I'm slav serbian,proud to be.I have nothing against turkish people,though,don't get me wrong,even though we were enemies in the past,but this is 21st century and the ancient wars are long gone,now we are on a acceptable distance. :wink:

 

2.This person is the ONLY ottoman leader,oh who I grew respect for,through reading history books.And I wrote about him,without any love or obsession shown,it is only based on facts and accomplishments of the mentioned person which I recognized as a great one,for his people and for his land,not mine.Ottomans were the arch-enemy of my people,and I praise heroes of my land and the eastern countries the most. :thumbsup:

 

3.Even though I had more clashes in my past against people of the origin of the person mentioned,then you can imagine,I never called my enemies 'turbans',as I was taught to respect my enemy and within to keep my dignity.It is a code which I carry through my whole life,which is passed from my father to me. :thumbsup:

 

4.You refer to 'we'.The OP of this debate asked me to write up a bit about the military leaders I have mentioned and I did the exact thing.I like this theme,as I am interested in history very much,and it is a former work of mine,and the OP is a former collegue,I like his views on this matter,and I am very glad that he accepted some a soviet general on his candidates list,because,usually,on the other sites,where I commented on similar subjects,slavic people were usually despised and refused to be a part of the debate:thumbsup:

 

5.Telling me that my post is useless(much ado about nothing!)is quite insulting thing to do,especially without any proper reason given,or facts stated.I didn't get shaked,though,I am just saying how it can be taken by others.

 

6.Take no offense,as I didn't as well.Simple-if you don't like what I write,or if you don't enjoy a longer text,feel free to skip my posts.

 

Thanks :thumbsup:

 

Moranda

[brokenergy]

One person comes to mind, Leon Trotsky, Minister of War from 1918-1925. He saved Russia from breaking up and established the USSR, truly Lenin's right hand man. He was also the man responsible of giving Stalin all his brutal idea's that he is famous for.

[DariusMoranda]

One person comes to mind, Leon Trotsky, Minister of War from 1918-1925. He saved Russia from breaking up and established the USSR, truly Lenin's right hand man. He was also the man responsible of giving Stalin all his brutal idea's that he is famous for.

 

Ah, ol' Leiba Trocki, not a name to run into every day, usually.

 

Indeed, he held them all together, dedicated to the cause while Lenin was alive. He played a huge part in SSSR in many political and military aspects. And what a life, lol, from a respected member of the Communist party, to an exiled public enemy number 1, in between, two wars, Russian Civil War, and Polish-Russian war. Both succesfull, in insane circumstances, though he brought a 'curse' on him with putting his name as a subject of hatred, ex White Army opponent survivors were on a constant look for him for assasination.Ruthless he was,maybe even more then Iosif in those days. He played a joker between Bolsheviks and Mensheviks in the first years, firing up both of the fractions in the most radical way possible, as well as spreading influence in other communist parties in foreign lands. Head of the Red Army, main guy for political propaganda, he was advisor of both Lenjin and Staljin did a tremendous work on SSSR to become a super power. With one single mistake in his career (aside from crimes in Poland). I guess he was out of his mind, pretty much, when he tried to make a paralel between Staljin and him, with creating his own way of communism, and trying to establish an opponent party, with the same goal. That was a big no-no, because we all know how much 'Iron Grandad' 'liked' those who speaks against him... =gulag or firing squad or an eternal retirement in Butirka. He got exiled and assassinated at the start of the World War 2 ,by an NKVD officer, direct order from good ol' Iosif, lol.

 

Leon Trocki, one of the pioneers of the great SSSR.

 

Great name you given, friend, and you just reminded me to read again some history in the next few days . Memoirs of Nikita Khrushchev will be on the menu for the weekend.

 

:thumbsup:

 

Moranda

[Aurielius]

At the express request of a friend whose intellect and Irish wit I respect I am going to advocate for her candidates 'in suus absentis'. One of the individuals in question is Arthur Wellesley the 1st Duke of Wellington for the Tactical Category.

 

Wellesley rose to prominence as a general during the Peninsular War campaigns of the Napoleonic Wars. He was the only commander of the period to have exceeded the lessons that Napoleon innovated.

 

Wellington saw active service for the first time between June 1794 and April 1795 when his regiment was posted to the Netherlands in the early stages of the French Wars. His next experience of warfare was in India during the fourth Mysore War where he was involved in the fighting against Tippoo Sultan. The campaign culminated in the siege and fall of Seringapatam in May 1799. In 1803, and by then a Major-General, Wellington fought in the second Mahratta War against Scindiah of Gwalior; his successful campaigns included victories at Assaye and Argaum.

 

By October 1807 the Peninsular Campaign was under way after the French declared war on Portugal. The French occupied Spain in May 1808, which led to a Spanish and Portuguese revolt. A British expeditionary force under the temporary command of Wellington was sent to Iberia on 1 August by Lord Grenville's ministry; in its first campaign the British defeated the French at the Battle of Rolica and at Vimeiro. In January 1809, Wellington resumed command of the army in Iberia. From then until 1815, Wellington was occupied with leading the British army in the defeat of the French. Wellington's use of small highly trained rifle companies that were dispersed over Spain was the precursor of the modern Special Operations Groups such as the SAS. He was the only English or Allied general who drew lessons from the American Revolutionary War and applied them on a European battlefield.

 

In the Battle of Waterloo(1815) forces of the French Empire under Napoleon Bonaparte and Field Marshall Michel Ney were defeated by those of the Seventh Coalition, including a Prussian army under the command of Gebhard von Blücher and an Anglo-Allied army under the command of the Duke of Wellington. It was the decisive battle of the Waterloo Campaign and Bonaparte's last. The defeat at Waterloo put an end to Napoleon's rule as the French emperor, and marked the end of Napoleon's Hundred Days of return from exile.

 

Two large forces under Wellington and von Blücher assembled close to the northeastern border of France. Napoleon chose to attack in the hope of destroying them before they could join in a coordinated invasion of France with other members of the Coalition. The decisive engagement of this three day Waterloo Campaign (June 16-19, 1815) occurred at the Battle of Waterloo. According to Wellington, the battle was "the nearest-run thing you ever saw in your life." Wellington's positioning of weak Belgian troops in the center of his line drew the French cavalry in to be slaughtered by massed English squares deployed on the reverse slope was a master stroke that Napoleon and Ney never saw coming. Wellington had scouted the terrain in 1814 and "kept it in his pocket" for future use.

Napoleon delayed giving battle until noon on 18 June to allow the ground to dry. Wellington's army, positioned across the Brussels road on the Mont St Jean escarpment, withstood repeated attacks by the French, until, in the evening, the Prussians arrived in force and broke through Napoleon's right flank. At that moment, the British counter-attacked and drove the French army in disorder from the field. Pursuing Coalition forces entered France and restored Louis XVIII to the French throne.

 

Wellington was the only general in the Napoleonic Wars that defeated a French Army with Napoleon in direct command and hence a worthy candidate for tactical genius.