LE Planning an Overhaul mod, would like advice!

[monganfinn]

Ah, good to see that you have such a huge reception on the other threads. I feared already you would stop working on it if I stay a solitary figure here.

 

Sadly you are right with the alternate death part, did not look at it from that perspective. Though other dragons can´t kill you permanently the same way you cannot eat Alduins soul, it is to powerful. The other edge cases involving daedra could be argued that the dovah sil could not be bound by the daedra and that your divine soul overrides their "right" on your soul- Miraak afterall, fled into Apocrypha willingly, if I remember correctly that is?

Has anyone ever tried to soul trap you in the game? The sad fact that the PC can fight on par with a armageddon level dragon like Alduin without extensive preparations and tools is a problem, but the Skuldafn portal quest could be altered to allow followers coming with you to Sovngarde giving a viable reason as to why you take the portal. Has anyone not used potions in the fight agains Aldi? If so he needs to get stronger, a lot!

The soul cairn ist just another Oblivion plane housing the souls of those trapped in soul gems, why wouldn´t you still go to Sovngarde if dieing there? Unless I missed some in game mechanic.

But forget the revival part, it doesn´t really have a direct inpact on the other game aspects and thus would probably fare better in a separate mod.

 

About the degradation:

first of all realism, it makes no sense that you can strengthen your iron sword tens of times while becoming more proficient in smithing and let it have more damage than a steel sword you forged but when fighting against dragons, dwemer anima etc your weapon would never break! Theres a mod on the nexus that attempts to do breakable shields, that also falls into the same category. A giant, dragon, dwemer centurion hit you repeatedly but afterwards your armor and shield are just as good as before.

Furthermore it forces you to think about what gear you use, without degradation you can simply use one high spec assortment and have no reason to change beside aesthetics.

In combat it would serve as a new criteria for winning, the same way you need to recharge enchanted gear with soul gems - could you also make armor and rings etc that need recharging? - to use them effectively.

Especially in big dungeons, if you enter them with relatively few gear it would force you to think more strategically about who and how you fight because if you are careless you might fight a tough opponent with a greatly weakened gear resulting in your loss even though you would be statistically capable of defeating him.

- It would also give you more reason to further your smithing skills.

- at low levels it constraints your ressources in a realistic way, if however all enchanted gear doesn´t deteriorate then why would you use non enchanted gear, especially on low levels it would make the player use primary enchanted gear to preserve his precious ressources and thus take away the whole point of implementing degradation.

- even if you restrict the number of soul gems they would simply use the non charged enchanted items.

- it would also add more depth into battle preparation: on the other threads I read that someone was against giving creatures specific item weaknesses aka silver swords for vamps for example, but not only is this as realistic as possible, as long as the PC is just some poor human he just doesn´t have what it takes to pummel a supernatural creature with inadequate gear, it also adds more depth to the quests you undertake if you have to be careful about how you prepare yourself. And perhaps even have to undertake extended preparations.

 

If a player doesn´t want that than he can play a magic based character who would not be reliant on tools, and have the necessary versatility of magic to counter different natured threats - different from warrior type players; those simply are reliant on tools to bridge the gap between themselves and unnatural beings - personal skill is still be very important because the item has requirements to be adequately wielded: two npc may have the same armor but one has the necessary perks to bring out the potential of the armor and thus is better protected. Or you give a noob in swordsmanship the best sword in the game but he doesn´t have the necessary skills to wield it fast enough for not every random bandit to dodge his awkard 2handed swing.

 

I read on the other threads that you plan to take away the soul gems from vendors so the PC has to go hunt for them, I fully approve, though at least some mages should have a few low level ones as they simply have a need for them and thus it would be strange to find none with them. Also as there are probably several that don´t like to implement that bullet like soul trap spell, personally I use a modded soul trap cloak, I suggest that soul gems of low level can be looted from enemy mages.

 

About the unleveled elements mentioned on the other sites: I always felt that legendary isn´t legendary. I grind my smithing for 90 lv where I always dreamed of a legendary weapon and then I can simply craft it at any ordinary forge without the need for enchanted gear or potions to boost my smithing. And then I ask myself: If it is so easy, why couldn´t I buy them from Eorlund!?

I propose that the strongest items can only be crafted with the use of such boosts aka potions, enchantings and perhaps also only at special forges. Or if you keep the upgrading of items like in vanilla than legendary should only be achievable with boosts.

 

An easy to use dodge mechanic would be nice.

 

About the low accuracy of bows mentioned on the other sites, I like it. The chance to miss could be higher if your opponent is sneaking or the vision is bad: storms, night with no night vision etc

 

More epic boss fights are always welcome!

Perhaps you could add some lorefriendly mini bosses into the wilds: there are countless named wolves in legends, the mod of the follower Hoth mentions how he once fought a mighty bear that could topple buildings, and the norse background of Skyrim cries for some powerful animals.

On that note, animals quickly get to weak. Yes it should be possible to kill a measly wolf with a single hit from a dragonbone sword, but only if the wolf doesn´t evade and if some 50kg wolf jumps at me in full sprint I am sure I would fall down or at least be staggered.

The same with Dragons, their melee damage is pitifull and doesn´t look or feel as if it comes from a collosus of tons of kg - melee attacks of dragons should stagger and that tail should be at least able to throw me like a giants club or a FUS RO DAH, and take a big chunk of my life.

[monganfinn]

 

You aren't the only one. The mod is being discussed in several other places.

 

The trouble with alternate-death mods is that they introduce a lot of annoying edge cases. Like, what happens if you die fighting Alduin in Sovngarde? While soul trapped? While in the soul cairn? Why doesn't Alduin devour your soul - he can bring dragons back to life, presumably he can keep you dead. Why don't other Dovah kill you permanently? What if you become a vampire? What if you become a werewolf and your soul is promised to Hircine? What about after you've been induced into the service of Hermaeus Mora? Maybe I don't need my items (I'm a wizard) and I'll just go to Sovngarde to fight Alduin without them! There's also the immersion-breaking nature of, like, repeating the corpse run a lot.

 

Why do you want degradation?

I think for enchanted weapons:

 

Unenchanted or enchanted weapons without charge degrade normally.

 

Enchanted tempered weapons lose enchantment charges (very slightly) faster, unless you get a perk like "Enchanting Smith" (< Needs a better name), in which case it degrades normally.

 

Hello Matthiaswagg, its nice to discuss this with a few more people, I did not yet post on the other sites since those already had such a history that I am still reading over them.

 

Your concept pretty much balances the enchanted and unenchanted items out.

But I would even go so far as to propose to remove the upgrading through tempering completely or at least reduce its effect greatly, instead the skill perks in the combat trees could take up damage and protection value needed to play on high dificulties or high levels. - If removing such an established part of the game is even possible?

 

Why? Simply because its strange IMO that you can level up an item just because you have the skill and an ingot. In RL if you would want a better item you would have to forge a new one.

 

How about adding item recipies to the enchanting procedure, beside soulgems and the enchanted items? To make the enchanting experience more epic.

You could for ex have to due a little mini quest to collect the necessary ingredients or fullfil certain criteria like with the lunar forge.

[Mattiewagg]

Ah, good to see that you have such a huge reception on the other threads. I feared already you would stop working on it if I stay a solitary figure here.

 

Sadly you are right with the alternate death part, did not look at it from that perspective. Though other dragons can´t kill you permanently the same way you cannot eat Alduins soul, it is to powerful. The other edge cases involving daedra could be argued that the dovah sil could not be bound by the daedra and that your divine soul overrides their "right" on your soul- Miraak afterall, fled into Apocrypha willingly, if I remember correctly that is?

Has anyone ever tried to soul trap you in the game? The sad fact that the PC can fight on par with a armageddon level dragon like Alduin without extensive preparations and tools is a problem, but the Skuldafn portal quest could be altered to allow followers coming with you to Sovngarde giving a viable reason as to why you take the portal. Has anyone not used potions in the fight agains Aldi? If so he needs to get stronger, a lot!

The soul cairn ist just another Oblivion plane housing the souls of those trapped in soul gems, why wouldn´t you still go to Sovngarde if dieing there? Unless I missed some in game mechanic.

But forget the revival part, it doesn´t really have a direct inpact on the other game aspects and thus would probably fare better in a separate mod.

 

About the degradation:

first of all realism, it makes no sense that you can strengthen your iron sword tens of times while becoming more proficient in smithing and let it have more damage than a steel sword you forged but when fighting against dragons, dwemer anima etc your weapon would never break! Theres a mod on the nexus that attempts to do breakable shields, that also falls into the same category. A giant, dragon, dwemer centurion hit you repeatedly but afterwards your armor and shield are just as good as before.

Furthermore it forces you to think about what gear you use, without degradation you can simply use one high spec assortment and have no reason to change beside aesthetics.

In combat it would serve as a new criteria for winning, the same way you need to recharge enchanted gear with soul gems - could you also make armor and rings etc that need recharging? - to use them effectively.

Especially in big dungeons, if you enter them with relatively few gear it would force you to think more strategically about who and how you fight because if you are careless you might fight a tough opponent with a greatly weakened gear resulting in your loss even though you would be statistically capable of defeating him.

- It would also give you more reason to further your smithing skills.

- at low levels it constraints your ressources in a realistic way, if however all enchanted gear doesn´t deteriorate then why would you use non enchanted gear, especially on low levels it would make the player use primary enchanted gear to preserve his precious ressources and thus take away the whole point of implementing degradation.

- even if you restrict the number of soul gems they would simply use the non charged enchanted items.

- it would also add more depth into battle preparation: on the other threads I read that someone was against giving creatures specific item weaknesses aka silver swords for vamps for example, but not only is this as realistic as possible, as long as the PC is just some poor human he just doesn´t have what it takes to pummel a supernatural creature with inadequate gear, it also adds more depth to the quests you undertake if you have to be careful about how you prepare yourself. And perhaps even have to undertake extended preparations.

 

If a player doesn´t want that than he can play a magic based character who would not be reliant on tools, and have the necessary versatility of magic to counter different natured threats - different from warrior type players; those simply are reliant on tools to bridge the gap between themselves and unnatural beings - personal skill is still be very important because the item has requirements to be adequately wielded: two npc may have the same armor but one has the necessary perks to bring out the potential of the armor and thus is better protected. Or you give a noob in swordsmanship the best sword in the game but he doesn´t have the necessary skills to wield it fast enough for not every random bandit to dodge his awkard 2handed swing.

 

I read on the other threads that you plan to take away the soul gems from vendors so the PC has to go hunt for them, I fully approve, though at least some mages should have a few low level ones as they simply have a need for them and thus it would be strange to find none with them. Also as there are probably several that don´t like to implement that bullet like soul trap spell, personally I use a modded soul trap cloak, I suggest that soul gems of low level can be looted from enemy mages.

 

About the unleveled elements mentioned on the other sites: I always felt that legendary isn´t legendary. I grind my smithing for 90 lv where I always dreamed of a legendary weapon and then I can simply craft it at any ordinary forge without the need for enchanted gear or potions to boost my smithing. And then I ask myself: If it is so easy, why couldn´t I buy them from Eorlund!?

I propose that the strongest items can only be crafted with the use of such boosts aka potions, enchantings and perhaps also only at special forges. Or if you keep the upgrading of items like in vanilla than legendary should only be achievable with boosts.

 

An easy to use dodge mechanic would be nice.

 

About the low accuracy of bows mentioned on the other sites, I like it. The chance to miss could be higher if your opponent is sneaking or the vision is bad: storms, night with no night vision etc

 

More epic boss fights are always welcome!

Perhaps you could add some lorefriendly mini bosses into the wilds: there are countless named wolves in legends, the mod of the follower Hoth mentions how he once fought a mighty bear that could topple buildings, and the norse background of Skyrim cries for some powerful animals.

On that note, animals quickly get to weak. Yes it should be possible to kill a measly wolf with a single hit from a dragonbone sword, but only if the wolf doesn´t evade and if some 50kg wolf jumps at me in full sprint I am sure I would fall down or at least be staggered.

The same with Dragons, their melee damage is pitifull and doesn´t look or feel as if it comes from a collosus of tons of kg - melee attacks of dragons should stagger and that tail should be at least able to throw me like a giants club or a FUS RO DAH, and take a big chunk of my life.

I think it would be cool to have the enemies sneaking, but it would be a lot of AI stuff.

 

Speaking of AI stuff... Better AI to improve combat mechanics and make combat feel more real. Also I posted a bunch of other stuff on the other thread.

[Mattiewagg]

 

Your concept pretty much balances the enchanted and unenchanted items out.

But I would even go so far as to propose to remove the upgrading through tempering completely or at least reduce its effect greatly, instead the skill perks in the combat trees could take up damage and protection value needed to play on high dificulties or high levels. - If removing such an established part of the game is even possible?

 

 

I think tempering makes sense, of a sort. But I think it should be less about tempering and more about repairing, much like in Oblivion, with a possibility to repair over the base value so the weapon becomes better once you've become a pretty expert smith. As I said, like in Oblivion.

 

Tempering should definitely take more than just an ingot.

 

I also propose integrating Living Takes Time or something similar.

[Arrogancy]

I've tried living takes time, but it had some technical and implementation issues - if those could be fixed, I'd be positively inclined towards it.

 

So, the problem I have with degradation is that it's really only a relevant gameplay mechanic for a small part of the game, and after that it's just a huge chore. You can make it more relevant by making it harder to repair higher-end gear, but that only increases the chore part - yes, it does make the decision of what gear to bring with you more complex, but it doesn't make the decision more interesting. Instead of a choice between meh and awesome, it presents the player with a decision between meh and meh. That's not good game design. I don't want to go on quests to find some more ebony ore and [weird component] to get my top armor working again - I want to go on quests to reforge Wuuthrad, undermine the Thalmor, or recover an Elder Scroll.

[monganfinn]

Most materials would be found without much hassle and while doing more epic endouvers anyway. So you wouldn´t really have to spend much time on the chore part.

Yes, that takes away some of the reason for degradation but degradation also means that you cannot really judge an opponents gear by looks. You cannot enter a battle assuming how good the enemies gear is thus it adds a surprise effect. It also gives you a reason to use the forges at every opportunity and not only for grinding so you can finally forge a daedric armor. - it´s immersive to play and an immersive way to further your smithing skill.

- it is pretty much simply the more realistic alternative to the upgrading in skyrim vanilla.

 

Furthermore it also provides with a surprise element in combat and forces you to manage your gear more, and it limits your ressources quita a lot in fact because no merchant would give you as much money for a damaged item as for a pristine item - since the PC has the greatest income from looting and selling items that would create a greatly reduced economic power of the player.

 

Yes it doesn´t make playing the game more epic, it is a chore, it is realistic. Generally the PC is simply more constricted and it makes the game harder not by upping the enemies but by diminishing the pc, and it makes the game more unpredictable!

If your armor or weapon suddenly becomes useless in a battle, wouldn´t that add a dynamic approach to battle and make the stronger items more outstanding, thus making their quests more important?

Most of the daedric quests are also just a chore and the reward is often a weapon weaker than the single one I used to complete the quest.

 

I want to crawl through the mud of Skyrim anticipating danger at every corner and fearing them because I am on my last legs.

I wish to be relieved when I finally reach a non hostile environment and be forced to equip myself as good as possible for the next adventure and yet still have to say: "I better sneak past them so I can preserve my healing potions, gear etc" - So that when I bash in skulls with Volendrung without pause, I can say: "Hell yess! It was all worth it!"

 

 

I think tempering makes sense, of a sort. But I think it should be less about tempering and more about repairing, much like in Oblivion, with a possibility to repair over the base value so the weapon becomes better once you've become a pretty expert smith.

That would be ideal.

 

On that note, I would like to propose the degradation option of the total loss of an item aka it would become damaged beyond repair, forcing the pc to not just amass item over item and keep them stored somewhere but: "Damm, my enchanted sword I spend hours preparing and have cleared whole dungeons with, just broke against the scales of a dragon! And he had little to no life left!!"

 

An MCM option for degradation then? So every player can decide for himself if he wants to play fast or slow.

 

I have also made good experiences with the mod ultimate dragons.

It adds several new features, dynamic behaviour and attack animations for dragons, which, for me weren´t buggy.

 

For the random spawning dragons I would propose that they aren´t adjusted to the current player level. Making them sometimes weak, sometimes strong etc

It would simply make the whole game more unpredictable and diverse if you sometimes have to run away from a dragon since he is to strong and sometimes can take it down easily.

 

I don´t know if it wasn´t already suggested or already implemented in your concept sheet, but how vanilla handled potion and spell distribution always bugged me.

Bandits carry them but don´t use them and compared to the player they carry next to none.

Why do dead draugr in graves have healing potions? - yet don´t use them.

Why do mages have only a few spells but the player can use invisibility, muffling etc to surprise them and has a wider array of spells at his disposal than hagravens, dragonpriests experienced mages etc

 

Could the carry weight system be changed in a more realistic way? By separating it from the stamina amount.

Or let the stamina drain massively if you carry a lot.

It would force the pc to use horses and followers more and curse Sheogarath when they kick the bucket during a quest.

A powerful mage could than have a spell that allows him to banish items into a oblivion pocket circumventing the carry weight restriction but in return he would lose some other important option.

Perhaps a constantly reduced magicka as long as the pocket dimension is used.

 

- This would probably generaly translate to more design the perk trees in such a way that each choice is hard and has a drawback thus having a great impact on your playing style.

[Arrogancy]

I'll look into degredation some more after v1, but it's not likely. At the end of the day I want to make a mod I want to play, and I've just hated every degradation system I've ever found in another game.

[monganfinn]

 

So, the problem with cooking and survival trees is that it’s basically impossible to find worthwhile perks to put in them. Like, making trees with perks is easy - but that’s not the goal of good design. The goal is to make every tree feel overpowered. Naturally that really means that they are balanced, of course - but they should all feel awesome. I am not aware of any way to make roasting pheasant feel as awesome as roasting vampires.

Perhaps simply adding survival perks to the different trees would solve this issue. For example: cooking in alchemy and skills in this perk would boost the PC overall stats.

 

Concerning potions in general; I propose that their individual effect would be boosted but their number lessened, I always find myself downing 5 or so at the same time.

How do you plan to handle potions anyway? Like SkyRe with a over time effect or with an immediat effect like in vanilla?

 

I feel like nonrenewable or hardrenewable resources really need a game with more constraints in it than Skyrim has to really shine.

I am not going to bug you on the degradation thing, but could you describe a bit what kind of constraints you think of?

[Arrogancy]

Uh, if you quote from a post, could you do it on the thread that you're quoting from?

 

Pots will happen over time, and won't stack. Cooking in alchemy is a great idea. I will look into that. Do you have any suggestions of what such a perk might do?

 

The best constraints to make nonrenewables shine are time, attrition and strong optional goals with awesome rewards attached. It's key in the last case to communicate to the player in advance that there's an awesome reward, so that they will come in guns blazing with their nonrenewable. Skyrim doesn't have any of these - you're never under time constraints, there's basically no attrition since your stats all regenerate, and the system isn't really designed to give you "awesome rewards" - there are a couple of artifacts, yeah, but nothing that will let you kill stuff you couldn't kill before; character improvements that let you take on stronger challenges come almost exclusively through leveling. A good example is actually the forests in the Civilization series. You can chop them to generate extra production, which you would totally do if you're building some key wonder that will boost you throughout the game (or through, say, a critical part of it).

[monganfinn]

 

Cooking in alchemy is a great idea.

Do you have any suggestions of what such a perk might do?

That would probably depend on if you want to implement realistic needs aka hunger etc

But in general something along the lines:

- the higher the skill the higher the stat boost to the PC, he gets from eating

- drawbacks, like the vanilla lessened stamina recovery of alkoholics, could be lessened with the skill progression

- make more things edible

- more diverse recipes, which involve combinations of ingredients not used before

- at low levels the possibility to poison himself accidentily

- perhaps some long time diets could boost or diminish stats f.ex. health recovery, or frost resistance for alcohol

- at a low skill level the cooking could turn out to be a failure like with potions when you don´t yet know the effect of the ingredients.

It probably wouldn´t be anything big, just a way to give cooking more of a legit reason compared to vanilla and boost the need for survival measures through eating, perhaps also as a low level form of potions. Make hunting more rewarding if cooking will be possible in the wild.

 

If you implement a survival system like ineed, realistic needs and diseases the range of effects would become bigger:

- remove the vanilla disease healing potion or make it very rare and add a way to ridd yourself of diseases through a special diet

- with a higher skill the nutrition of food could be upped

- resistence or at least ignoring to bad weather as it is already introduced in Frostfall

: Uh, if you quote from a post, could you do it on the thread that you're quoting from?

 

Sorry about that, it was simply relevant to the discussion on this thread.