Attention All Downloaders: My First Complaint...

[Dimon]

To whom it may concern:

 

I just received my first complaint. In other words, someone is upset with me for posting other people's mods. As said in my disclaimer, I am not altering them/claiming they are mine/making myself look popular. I am trying to share the best mods out there with this site. Anyways, here's a copy of here "private" post:

 

 

From Gien:

 

I dont care if you put some stupidly pathetic disclaimer anyone who wants those mods can easily find them on HERE ALREADY or on planet elder scrolls and you've uploaded some of the most popular mods which have already been uploaded most likely so go be a "messenger boy" somewhere else

 

Note: This is my response...

 

I am sorry if I upset you. I did not realise you would take offense. I could not find some of those mods on here that I uploaded, so I was just trying to help other modders enjoy these on here. If you don't like me uploading them, you don't have to download them. In other words, ignore them or go to another site. Note: For legitimate reasons, I am copying this post and placing it on the boards to indicate and ask if anyone else is upset by this.

 

................................................................................

........

 

The name of this user who posted this is named Gien.

 

First off, You could not find some of these mods on here. Yes, you could go to another site to find them, but what about the people that don't know about PES? About new users? You have to considere all the users, not just the veterans. In other words, new and old alike. After all, you were once a new user yourself.

 

"Upload some of the most popular"....

 

Yes, I planned on uploading some of the most popular on purpose because how would you like to download one with a bunch of glitches/ditry GMST's, especially if you are a new users? Plus, I am uploading the popular ones because they are easiest to find. Just as you said,

"anyone who wants those mods can easily find them on HERE ALREADY or on planet elder scrolls ".

 

"those mods can easily find them on HERE ALREADY." This is not true. I check before I post a mod to make sure that there won't be 2 of the same mod posted on TES Source. I only messed up once, and that was on a mod because "Unkown" did not tell his version number, so I uploaded one, which I beleive, is a newer version.

 

" dont care if you put some stupidly pathetic disclaimer". First off, this disclaimer guarentees the quality of the mods. It shows I am sincere in posting them. I love these mods and wish to share them with everybody. Without this, the modders that I am submitting from may become upset, and, like you, would complain about it, but I respect this. But with this disclaimer(legally binding), I am proving my intentions.

 

 

"so go be a "messenger boy" somewhere else." Hehe, actually I already a "messenger boy" here and at PES. In fact, I use a different alias at PES, so you could be downloading mods that I uploaded at PES. Of course, I also indicate in those that I am not the modder, but thanks for the suggestion.

 

I apologize to all if you feel at all offended by my uploads because they are not mine. I never said I was a modder, just a submitter. I respect Gien's opinion, and have tried to explain my reasoning here(and my side).

If anyone else feels this way(ie. the author, etc...) let me know here and I will pull the mods/stop submitting them.

 

Thank you for reading

 

Dimon

 

P.S. My personal opinion does not reflect the opinions at TES Source.

[Peregrine]

Here's a hint for you: STOP DOING IT. The mods are not yours, and very often the mod author will include a "do not distribute this mod" line in their readme file. You have no right to post another person's work without clear permission.

 

If I saw you posting some of my work, credit given or not, you would be given exactly one warning email to remove the files before I reported you to your ISP for copyright violation. There are many people who feel the same way about their work, so I suggest you respect their wishes if you want them to keep making mods.

[Dimon]

Here's a hint for you: STOP DOING IT. The mods are not yours, and very often the mod author will include a "do not distribute this mod" line in their readme file. You have no right to post another person's work without clear permission.

 

If I saw you posting some of my work, credit given or not, you would be given exactly one warning email to remove the files before I reported you to your ISP for copyright violation. There are many people who feel the same way about their work, so I suggest you respect their wishes if you want them to keep making mods.

 

 

I understand what your saying. I usually check the readme's and see if they say you can freely distribute them. I also email the author's. For example, I emailed Sabregirl and Kagrenac about this. Sabregirl just referred me to the last line of her readme, which clearly states it can be distributed as long as she has all her contact info included and is in orginal format. I keep them in original format. Kagrenac also lets me distribute his by emailing the mods, which at one time, were available at Euromods. But I do check the readme's carefully.

 

I am also taken many English and Law classes in College. There is a term called, "the free information distribution act" made in 1990's. This act allows people to freely distribute items, as long as they explain THEY are not the maker and give a clear reference that they are not the maker. I have done this with many papers in college and always cleary mark the references, giving credit to the quotes and parts I got from magazines, web publications, etc... As I have been giving references in the mods clearly stating that I am not the maker of the particular mod with a disclaimer, I am following this law. There is also the "software distribution law". This law indicates all software, available as a mod or known as "FREEWARE" is considered a type of free ware on the internet, unless charged a price. Hence, this is why you can get shareware/freeware programs available on the internet. If these individuals started charging money for their items, That is against the law. If the author charges for their products/mods, that is their right. If someone distributes a patch, as long as the company from which it came from allows it, that is legal. I have done this in the past with patches for FF VII. If re-releasing patches are illegal, several sites would be non-existant at this time, including the Patch Scrolls. As mods are very similiar to patches, it is covered under this act. For more information, please read the Copyright Laws of the USA's government at www.parlimentlaws.org

 

If charged a price, without the companies authorization, releasing the software on the internet is called "Piracy". This is most definitely illegal. For example, If an individual was to release a full version of TES 4: Oblivian, that would be a defintily against the law. Or, if someone torrents a whole movie. NOTE: The exception is "sampling", like rappers do in most of their songs nowadays.

 

EXCEPTIONS: Other exceptions include if an resident in another country, shoud that individual be controlled by US Copyright laws when their own countries has diffeferent sets of copyright laws? For example, say I am a citizen of Germany, shoud I be prosecuted under US juristiction? Just as in countries like Mexico, there are "not as strict" laws that do not apply to other countries. Does that mean the US is the internet's police force? For example, copyright laws are not strict in Germany in downloading music, that is why some friends of mine can always find full music downloads, because they are residents living in Germany. Now, say if the person lives in the USA, and they download the same song my friends did, that would be up to the US Government, would it not? Would you like the German government arresting you on USA soil, under their laws of copyright, for downloading a song on their servers? I think not.

 

Another hypothetical example is say that TES Source is not in the US, does that mean that they should follow the laws not even for a country they reside in? That is sorta why Interpol was made, but each country has their copyright laws. I suggest for further information, review them and see what is appopriate for the individual supposedly infringing on these laws, because it could be infringing on their personal rights in the country they live in.

[Peregrine]

I understand what your saying. I usually check the readme's and see if they say you can freely distribute them. I also email the author's. For example, I emailed Sabregirl and Kagrenac about this. Sabregirl just referred me to the last line of her readme, which clearly states it can be distributed as long as she has all her contact info included and is in orginal format. I keep them in original format. Kagrenac also lets me distribute his by emailing the mods, which at one time, were available at Euromods. But I do check the readme's carefully.

 

That's good. If you're posting with direct permission, I guess that's different.

I am also taken many English and Law classes in College. There is a term called, "the free information distribution act" made in 1990's. This act allows people to freely distribute items, as long as they explain THEY are not the maker and give a clear reference that they are not the maker. I have done this with many papers in college and always cleary mark the references, giving credit to the quotes and parts I got from magazines, web publications, etc...

 

The Fair Use concept refers to taking short quotes with full credit, not to posting the entire work. There's a difference between taking a quote from a book and publishing a word-for-word copy. Otherwise the RIAA's entire case would be completely destroyed, as the song downloaders aren't claiming the work as their own.

 

There is also the "software distribution law". This law indicates all software, available as a mod or known as "FREEWARE" is considered a type of free ware on the internet, unless charged a price. Hence, this is why you can get shareware/freeware programs available on the internet. If these individuals started charging money for their items, That is against the law. If the author charges for their products/mods, that is their right. If someone distributes a patch, as long as the company from which it came from allows it, that is legal.

 

You're really misunderstanding things here. Freeware is specifically distributed by the author under a license that allows unlimited redistribution and modification as long as it isn't for profit. Freeware is not a default state, that license has to be intentionally stated by the author, or it isn't freeware. Whether the author is charging money for it or not is completely irrelevant.

 

And not all mods are freeware. If the author publishes their work under different licensing terms, you have to obey them or they have grounds for legal action against you. They are restricted from charging money for their work by the license of the modified game, but they are free to include as restrictive a license as they wish for the parts that are their own work.

I have done this in the past with patches for FF VII. If re-releasing patches are illegal, several sites would be non-existant at this time, including the Patch Scrolls. As mods are very similiar to patches, it is covered under this act. For more information, please read the Copyright Laws of the USA's government at www.parlimentlaws.org

 

No, completely wrong. Mods are not at all similar to patches. Patches (in most cases) are specifically published under a license that allows unlimited distribution (and probably encourages it, to get the patch distributed asap). Mods are not necessarily the same. If the mod author publishes under similar license terms they are, but the mod author is free to include whatever alternate terms they want.

 

Just to make it clear: patches (and many mods) can usually be distributed because of the terms the author decides to release them under. This is not due to any inherent quality of patches/mods, if the license does not specifically allow redistribution, redistribution is illegal.

 

If charged a price, without the companies authorization, releasing the software on the internet is called "Piracy". This is most definitely illegal. For example, If an individual was to release a full version of TES 4: Oblivian, that would be a defintily against the law. Or, if someone torrents a whole movie. NOTE: The exception is "sampling", like rappers do in most of their songs nowadays.

 

Copyright law does not care whether the author charges money for their work or not. All creative works are copyrighted the moment they are created. For example, I own the copyrights to all of my art. No matter what price (if any) I decide to charge for it, it is illegal to do anything with it unless I have given specific permission. If you release one of my 3d model files without my specific permission, it doesn't matter if I gave it to you for free or if I charged you money for it, I can sue you exactly the same way.

 

The only difference might come in what damages I can sue for. If I'm not charging money for it, I would have a hard time arguing for significant damages against you. But I'd still have every right to demand the files be removed (and they would... your ISP will immediately delete them and likely suspend your account in their eagerness to comply with my demands).

 

EXCEPTIONS: Other exceptions include if an resident in another country, shoud that individual be controlled by US Copyright laws when their own countries has diffeferent sets of copyright laws? For example, say I am a citizen of Germany, shoud I be prosecuted under US juristiction? Just as in countries like Mexico, there are "not as strict" laws that do not apply to other countries. Does that mean the US is the internet's police force? For example, copyright laws are not strict in Germany in downloading music, that is why some friends of mine can always find full music downloads, because they are residents living in Germany. Now, say if the person lives in the USA, and they download the same song my friends did, that would be up to the US Government, would it not? Would you like the German government arresting you on USA soil, under their laws of copyright, for downloading a song on their servers? I think not.

 

International copyright laws are complicated, but every civilized country has copyright laws of its own, and they're pretty much the same. Especially in the case of protecting a person's IP rights to their creative works, even if they aren't the same about protecting corporate profits.

Another hypothetical example is say that TES Source is not in the US, does that mean that they should follow the laws not even for a country they reside in? That is sorta why Interpol was made, but each country has their copyright laws. I suggest for further information, review them and see what is appopriate for the individual supposedly infringing on these laws, because it could be infringing on their personal rights in the country they live in.

 

It doesn't matter. If the mod author included a license statement in their file, you agreed to it. If you violate it and post/modify their work against their wishes, you can be sued for breach of contract. You willingly accepted the terms under which you are allowed to use the downloaded files. If you don't like them, don't use it.

[Dimon]

I understand what your saying. I usually check the readme's and see if they say you can freely distribute them. I also email the author's. For example, I emailed Sabregirl and Kagrenac about this. Sabregirl just referred me to the last line of her readme, which clearly states it can be distributed as long as she has all her contact info included and is in orginal format. I keep them in original format. Kagrenac also lets me distribute his by emailing the mods, which at one time, were available at Euromods. But I do check the readme's carefully.

 

That's good. If you're posting with direct permission, I guess that's different.

I am also taken many English and Law classes in College. There is a term called, "the free information distribution act" made in 1990's. This act allows people to freely distribute items, as long as they explain THEY are not the maker and give a clear reference that they are not the maker. I have done this with many papers in college and always cleary mark the references, giving credit to the quotes and parts I got from magazines, web publications, etc...

 

The Fair Use concept refers to taking short quotes with full credit, not to posting the entire work. There's a difference between taking a quote from a book and publishing a word-for-word copy. Otherwise the RIAA's entire case would be completely destroyed, as the song downloaders aren't claiming the work as their own.

 

There is also the "software distribution law". This law indicates all software, available as a mod or known as "FREEWARE" is considered a type of free ware on the internet, unless charged a price. Hence, this is why you can get shareware/freeware programs available on the internet. If these individuals started charging money for their items, That is against the law. If the author charges for their products/mods, that is their right. If someone distributes a patch, as long as the company from which it came from allows it, that is legal.

 

You're really misunderstanding things here. Freeware is specifically distributed by the author under a license that allows unlimited redistribution and modification as long as it isn't for profit. Freeware is not a default state, that license has to be intentionally stated by the author, or it isn't freeware. Whether the author is charging money for it or not is completely irrelevant.

 

And not all mods are freeware. If the author publishes their work under different licensing terms, you have to obey them or they have grounds for legal action against you. They are restricted from charging money for their work by the license of the modified game, but they are free to include as restrictive a license as they wish for the parts that are their own work.

I have done this in the past with patches for FF VII. If re-releasing patches are illegal, several sites would be non-existant at this time, including the Patch Scrolls. As mods are very similiar to patches, it is covered under this act. For more information, please read the Copyright Laws of the USA's government at www.parlimentlaws.org

 

No, completely wrong. Mods are not at all similar to patches. Patches (in most cases) are specifically published under a license that allows unlimited distribution (and probably encourages it, to get the patch distributed asap). Mods are not necessarily the same. If the mod author publishes under similar license terms they are, but the mod author is free to include whatever alternate terms they want.

 

Just to make it clear: patches (and many mods) can usually be distributed because of the terms the author decides to release them under. This is not due to any inherent quality of patches/mods, if the license does not specifically allow redistribution, redistribution is illegal.

 

If charged a price, without the companies authorization, releasing the software on the internet is called "Piracy". This is most definitely illegal. For example, If an individual was to release a full version of TES 4: Oblivian, that would be a defintily against the law. Or, if someone torrents a whole movie. NOTE: The exception is "sampling", like rappers do in most of their songs nowadays.

 

Copyright law does not care whether the author charges money for their work or not. All creative works are copyrighted the moment they are created. For example, I own the copyrights to all of my art. No matter what price (if any) I decide to charge for it, it is illegal to do anything with it unless I have given specific permission. If you release one of my 3d model files without my specific permission, it doesn't matter if I gave it to you for free or if I charged you money for it, I can sue you exactly the same way.

 

The only difference might come in what damages I can sue for. If I'm not charging money for it, I would have a hard time arguing for significant damages against you. But I'd still have every right to demand the files be removed (and they would... your ISP will immediately delete them and likely suspend your account in their eagerness to comply with my demands).

 

EXCEPTIONS: Other exceptions include if an resident in another country, shoud that individual be controlled by US Copyright laws when their own countries has diffeferent sets of copyright laws? For example, say I am a citizen of Germany, shoud I be prosecuted under US juristiction? Just as in countries like Mexico, there are "not as strict" laws that do not apply to other countries. Does that mean the US is the internet's police force? For example, copyright laws are not strict in Germany in downloading music, that is why some friends of mine can always find full music downloads, because they are residents living in Germany. Now, say if the person lives in the USA, and they download the same song my friends did, that would be up to the US Government, would it not? Would you like the German government arresting you on USA soil, under their laws of copyright, for downloading a song on their servers? I think not.

 

International copyright laws are complicated, but every civilized country has copyright laws of its own, and they're pretty much the same. Especially in the case of protecting a person's IP rights to their creative works, even if they aren't the same about protecting corporate profits.

Another hypothetical example is say that TES Source is not in the US, does that mean that they should follow the laws not even for a country they reside in? That is sorta why Interpol was made, but each country has their copyright laws. I suggest for further information, review them and see what is appopriate for the individual supposedly infringing on these laws, because it could be infringing on their personal rights in the country they live in.

 

It doesn't matter. If the mod author included a license statement in their file, you agreed to it. If you violate it and post/modify their work against their wishes, you can be sued for breach of contract. You willingly accepted the terms under which you are allowed to use the downloaded files. If you don't like them, don't use it.

 

Hmm..maybe I learned something new today..thanks, friend. I enjoy learning new aspects that I didn't think about.

[Peregrine]

Hmm..maybe I learned something new today..thanks, friend. I enjoy learning new aspects that I didn't think about.

 

And I'll leave you with one last warning... in the 3d art community, there are a lot of very talented modelers who won't release their work because of people who don't respect their IP rights. Using the models without credit, posting them for download elsewhere, modifying them and calling it their own, etc... and it's really disappointing to know that if people didn't do things like that I could have a lot more stuff to work with. Even if it's not technically illegal, people really don't like it.

 

I imagine a lot of modders feel the same way, so I really suggest you get clear permission from all of them before doing any of this. You don't want to drive them away, do you?

[Dimon]

Hmm..maybe I learned something new today..thanks, friend. I enjoy learning new aspects that I didn't think about.

 

And I'll leave you with one last warning... in the 3d art community, there are a lot of very talented modelers who won't release their work because of people who don't respect their IP rights. Using the models without credit, posting them for download elsewhere, modifying them and calling it their own, etc... and it's really disappointing to know that if people didn't do things like that I could have a lot more stuff to work with. Even if it's not technically illegal, people really don't like it.

 

I imagine a lot of modders feel the same way, so I really suggest you get clear permission from all of them before doing any of this. You don't want to drive them away, do you?

 

 

No, I would never want that. In fact I wouldn't even now how to use their models in a mod. I thank you for the information and the education discussion. I will think on your words, friend. Also, because of your discussion, I will ceceede in submitting any more mods after I submit more of Sabregirls mods just for the Pharlans. After that, maybe when the world is more peaceful, I will come back and submit them. Until then, I will learn from the ultimate teacher: Life.