Why I believe the NCR is the best option

[scottym23]

I've played through FNV more times than I care to remember (or admit) and have experienced each ending multiple times. In my opinion, there's only one safe option to take regarding who should run Hoover Dam, and go onto great and glorious adventures with the aid of the courier. That of course by the title of this thread is the NCR, and here's my explanation for my choice.

 

Let's go over the players here:

 

• Legion
• NCR
• House
• Courier (Yes Man)

 

The Legion is a proud warrior tribe consisting of other conquered peoples. They tend to stick to hand to hand combat (although they've been known to use advanced weaponry) and live a more primitive lifestyle. Their methods and ideologies are archiac and downright barbaric from the way they treat women and slaves, to the way they treat non Legionares (torture, execution, ect.) For these reasons and many more, the Legion is an obvious no go for the future of New Vegas, and farther into the future of the nation.

 

Mr. House is a man who has contained his physical body in an air tight sealed chamber that allows him to live almost indefinitely, while his conscious remains ever active through a computer network. His plan is to rebuild Vegas to it's former glory, create a railway system to attract visitors, and make New Vegas a beacon of hope to all who may hear of it. A narcisist no doubt, but well meaning and seems to be void of petty grudges and will do what's best. Most likely my second choice, but i'll get into what the downside is of him after explaining the courier option since the two are similar.

 

Courier (Yes Man) needs barely any explanation. You take over Houses securitrons and New Vegas, essentially being a dictator that can do as much good/bad as desired. Also potentially able to seal yourself in the chamber house was formerly in, which may lead to immortality. Again, a very tempting choice. However this is why both the Courier and House options are a no-go for me.

 

Call me crazy, but i'm paranoid (to an appropriate degree in my mind) about the possibility of a hacking into the systems at The Lucky 38 which would give someone/some group access to all the securitrons. Because one glaring flaw with the House/Courier option is that your entire army and defense force could be taking away from you and turned within seconds by a single smart person who may or may not be close to New Vegas. We all know those people exist, as we're accosted by one leaving the Lucky 38 from the followers of the apocalypse. Although she thought you had to be inside the building to hack it, who's to say someone more intelligent or skilled couldn't do it successfully from a farther away location? It's a tremendous downside that can't be overlooked, and I wouldn't want to be in that position.

 

Another flaw is that your army of securitrons are seemingly limited with no way to rebuild. Sure you could repair some damages, but the construction of more securitrons seems to be a technology that's lost. I draw this theory from the quest to get the rest of House's army from fortification hill, which implies the only way for house to have access to more of them is to retrieve previously existing ones. He's had a good amount of time to start construction on new ones, yet he has not done so which leads me to believe the technology or infrastructure to build securitrons is no longer around.

 

This leads us to the final faction that I believe is the best choice for our courier and the rest of the Mojave/nation: The NCR! This is the closest faction resembling a technological capable and resourceful government that will protect it's citizens and has a clear hierarchy of power to take orders from, which is a very important aspect. Now, this isn't by any means a picture perfect choice. There is certainly corruption throughout the ranks, and they aren't too shy about taxing their controlled areas heavily. But they do seem to care about the populace, and have noble causes such as restoring order. Hell, they've even printed their own currency. They are also spread thin which is a problem, but can be resolved once you, the courier, are in a position of large influence to change that. Unlike the Courier/House options, your army of NCR troopers will prosper and grow, and no way to take complete control of the organization (even killing off the head which would probably be you would only move each person up a peg and keep the NCR operational). And who's to say you won't jump into that sealed chamber anyway at the end when there's no securitrons to control just so you can be a permanent leader of the NCR, giving orders from a computer?

 

For these reasons I believe the NCR is by far the best option for who should control Hoover Dam, and the nation in general. Please let me know what you think and whether you agree/disagree and why! Thanks for reading :D.

Edited September 17, 2014 by scottym23

[blaze1514]

I really wish that I knew some links to pages where people have already said this. It would be so much easier.

 

-This next post is going with the assumption that you allied with most factions that are worth it... and went Independent

 

The NCR is bad because it is (sadly) dying. Why would you think that joining a republic that is rotting from the inside out is good? Now you have a securitron army that can repair itself (witch is stated in the games). That army alone would withstand anything the NCR would be willing to waste farther on the Mohave (because most of the people in deep NCR territory are tired of the war and its loosing support). You have the only real air (boomers) power left in the Mohave. You have access to the some of the best warriors and brightest scientists left in the Mohave (BoS). Plus if I remember correctly you are on the good side of one of the largest functioning aid organizations still operating (FotA). Then there are the Kings witch could be used as a pretty good police force (seeing as they have that nice moral compass) Now lets say that you did this just to be a dictator... who cares. The lives of the people would still be better off than with overbearing red tape, cold uncaring leadership, or heartless cruelty. Its not like the once the currier is in power he is going to start killing his people (canon wise anyway). Now that is just counting for the main storyline. if you want to take into account the fact that you may have access to the best science lab left in the world... even better.

 

Basically its so good because of the simplicity of the way it works (its like why if the TSC was real/real in game it would be good). There is no real corruption. Anyone that would be in doing anything in a Independent NV would be doing it because they are the best people for it. Not because it benefits one group better than the other.

Edited September 17, 2014 by blaze1514

[scottym23]

Now you have a securitron army that can repair itself (witch is stated in the games).

 

As I said in my OP, repair and create are two drastically different concepts. If you can repair yourself or other securitrons then that helps you when one gets broken due to wear and tear or being beaten on. However if there were large confrontations in which securitrons couldn't be salvaged or brought back for repairs, then it still remains true that they are a limited resource.

 

 

 

 

 

The NCR is bad because it is (sadly) dying.

 

That's where the courier comes in. As seen in previous fallout games, the protagonist is somewhat of a "trump card" figure in deciding who wins and thrives. If the lone wanderer from Fallout 3 can single handedly tip the favor of the BoS vs. Enclave war, and the courier can simultaneously eliminate an entire faction and make another rule the Mojave, I'm more than certain he could spruce up the morale and structure of the NCR. Hell, there was even a mission about sprucing up a certain NCR camps' initiates morale, so he's already got the know-how.

 

 

You have the only real air (boomers) power left in the Mohave. You have access to the some of the best warriors and brightest scientists left in the Mohave (BoS). Plus if I remember correctly you are on the good side of one of the largest functioning aid organizations still operating (FotA). Then there are the Kings witch could be used as a pretty good police force (seeing as they have that nice moral compass)

 

Now think about all of those resources not only in your control and being used for whatever your plans are, but putting those to use with a faction that has much larger capabilities and infrastructure to use it! It'd be much more efficient and work more thoroughly. But beyond that, it could also be used to help bring the NCR together and inspire hope, which you touched on the NCR lacking.

[blaze1514]

 

 

 

You have the only real air (boomers) power left in the Mohave. You have access to the some of the best warriors and brightest scientists left in the Mohave (BoS). Plus if I remember correctly you are on the good side of one of the largest functioning aid organizations still operating (FotA). Then there are the Kings witch could be used as a pretty good police force (seeing as they have that nice moral compass)

 

Now think about all of those resources not only in your control and being used for whatever your plans are, but putting those to use with a faction that has much larger capabilities and infrastructure to use it! It'd be much more efficient and work more thoroughly. But beyond that, it could also be used to help bring the NCR together and inspire hope, which you touched on the NCR lacking.

 

 

No it wouldn't be more efficient. The whole problem with the NCR (at the time of NV) is that they are tactically and logistically retarded. They have a spineless politician president (basically they have an Obama when they need a Putin), an idiot commanding their war (His nickname is wait and see, since he doesn't know how to take initiative), their real tactician is going insane not being able to make a real difference (Head Ranger Whatshisface), their supply lines are largely unguarded and dangerous (as stated my the many trade groups you encounter). Not to mention the fact that the draft has left their army overmanned and under equipped. (contrary to the way they appear in vanilla, most of them have no plating (or at least not a full set, see dragbody's NCR for a more accurate and canonically exact experience). Then add to that the growing hate for the war in the NCR populous. The NCR is basically on the verge of civil anarchy. If They win then it gets worse. Now they actually have to incorporate New Vegas and its surrounding areas. That is a logistical nightmare in its own right. Not to mention it means more rounds in the Mohave for the troops. If things continue in the current way (courier or no) the NCR would fall in less than 2 decades.

Logically, Logistically, and tactically... the best thing for the NCR is for them to lose the dam and the courier to through that jackass general off of its side. That way the only one left to blame is their week president that would be ran out on a rail. The end result being the main two problems with the NCR would be gone. Plus all the draftees would be sent back. The NCR army would do 180 with its focus and stop trying to take s*** and focus on defense (hopefully).

Basically we are beating a dyeing Sayan to almost death in hopes that it will gain enough power level to survive its illness.

 

Anyway. The other point is that it would always be more efficient to have multiple small groups working on different things collaborating with one person (or one small group) as an intermediate. As apposed to having one large group trying to do and control everything with multiple large entities in power.

Edited September 18, 2014 by blaze1514

[scottym23]

 

The NCR is basically on the verge of civil anarchy. If They win then it gets worse. Now they actually have to incorporate New Vegas and its surrounding areas. That is a logistical nightmare in its own right. Not to mention it means more rounds in the Mohave for the troops.

 

 

First off I like how you pick one of my points and only focus on that. Were the other ones good? :o

 

But joking aside, I even admitted that the NCR isn't a sound proof option. It's the BEST option giving the rest of the circumstances. I've already outlined my reasoning for the Yes Man/Courier option being a poor choice, so until you dispute that there's nowhere else for this conversation to go :/. I'll give you a brief outline of why it's not wise for the Courier to go about running NV and more on his own;

 

1. The securitrons are a huge liability due to how they could potentially all be hacked at once and turned on the populace/the courier.

 

2. Not even that, but even if nobody is able to hack the system, they are still a limited resource. I responded already to your earlier point about this, that it is stated they can repair themselves and one another. And I agreed with that, but repair and create are two drastically different concepts. With the future scuffles that will inevitably occur, the number of securitrons will dwindle for sure.

 

3. I disagree with you about multiple groups doing individual tasks being more efficient. In fact i'd argue it's much more dangerous. The one thing about independent groups is that they have independent thoughts and desires. There's much more of a chance there will be mutiny in one area, and if a particular group of people want more influence or power they could halt the entire system by withholding whatever job they were tasked with that could be crucial to the entire process.

 

Simply put, the courier option leaves a lot of room for disaster on multiple fronts that can be handled better or completely avoided by taking the side of the NCR.

 

1. You can't hijack the minds and desires of multiple people (let alone hundreds/thousands).

 

2. If the NCR is spruced up and morale is high (which will likely occur with the courier in charge of at least the Mojave side of operations) then you can recruit more people.

 

3. Groups of individuals within the same organization are less likely to mutiny considering they are already part of that organization. That's just psychology. If you're a separate entity from the entire system (let's say the fota although I know they wouldn't mutiny) then they are more susceptible to group think and being persuaded to make decisions for the greater good of their group. If there are smaller camps of the same organization (the NCR) that's much less likely to occur.

 

 

To wrap up my point, there's certainly a lot wrong with the NCR. They are a group that's barely hanging on, they are spread too thin, and morale is low. Their trade posts aren't guarded and supply lines aren't either. Their leaders are also incompetent.

 

^ Do you know how difficult this task is compared to what our courier has done so far (including the DLC)? This seems like a couple of days worth of work for him (I know in reality it would be a long process, but in game time I mean).

It's just not as hard as you make it out to be to solve these problems, and even if it is the alternative isn't an option in my opinion based on the reasons I outlined above.

Edited September 18, 2014 by scottym23

[blaze1514]

: First off I like how you pick one of my points and only focus on that. Were the other ones good? :o

 

 

Sorry forgot.

 

Securitrons: Seeing as how I don't think they ever specify if or if not the securitron vault has manufacturing capabilities (witch I would assume it probably does) I am discounting this point.

(unless you can link me to an post that explicitly states that there is no manufacturing equipment in the Securitron Vault)

 

NCR Moral: Seeing as the ending slides basically say that he didn't do that (if you side with the NCR) then no. Its too bad the slides for the NCR were not just Immediately after the battle like the Independent slides. That would leave room for so mutch more debate. Plus the courier isn't god. Just because you play the game fast doesn't mean he can solve the problems that fast canon wise. By the time he was able to solve one of the main problems with the NCR (supplies, leadership, general moral) there would probably already be an active separatist moment.

 

 

1- Yes They are sooo easy to hack. I mean that is why it only happened ONCE since House took over. And that was before the added security firewalls of the Mk II upgrade.

 

2- We do not know if this is true or not. Even if it was... there are still the desert rangers, the families, the kings, etc... so many people that care about the place and actually want to fight for it.

 

3- "There's much more of a chance there will be mutiny in one area" That is the point. If someone kills them or they revolt. That is only one asset lost. Lets say that the NCR did win. The troopers end up revolting at Mc Carin. You just lost your science teams, most of your upper command, the largest portion of your supplies, and probably more.

If the Brotherhood feels like.... no wait we are assuming that the PC is a full member (no chance of BoS revolt)

If the Boomers.... oh wait they practically worship you (little chance of that)

OK seriously though. If the BoS goes insane or something... I ONLY loose my scientists (I guess now I will have to use the real ones at the BigMT) and loose the people patrolling the highways. Anyone can do that in their place.

If the boomers decide the want to be too xenophobic to help. OK I just lost only my air

Its 10 times better logistically to have multiple sustained groups. Because if I loose one I can have someone else pick up their place until replaced.

Plus its not just a small camp of people that are fed up with the current state of the NCR. Almost EVERY lower ranking soldier you come across is starting to show some kind of malice for the NCR's current state.

Edited September 18, 2014 by blaze1514

[Danny159]

Who says the tech of how to make more securitrons is lost?

Who says there isn't a manufacturing facility in the Securitron vault?

 

The reason House or Yesman can't make any more might just be the lack of power, remember you need to get more power for House/Yesman in some of the last stages of the game from a switch station. ;)

[scottym23]

 

1- Yes They are sooo easy to hack. I mean that is why it only happened ONCE since House took over. And that was before the added security firewalls of the Mk II upgrade.

 

 

I think we simply aren't looking at the question from the same perspective of who would be better for future growth and stability in the Mojave. I never said or claimed to know how easy it was to hack into the systems, so why make it sound like I was saying that? Even still, it doesn't matter if there's a 95% chance no one will ever hack it. That 5% chance is more than enough to make me unwilling to use the securitrons for a primary defense force.

 

And we can talk about the exact canon such as the end credit scene, but who is the narrator anyway? Someone who looked back on history from credible sources and is recounting it? I don't put full faith into his summation of what goes on after the fact. You and only you shape the future of the courier. My experience and outcome is never the same as anyone else's playthrough, because I decided to kill or spare certain people. I decided to complete some quests and not complete some, and do so in different ways. To say the narrator is this omnipotent being who states with 100% certainty everything that will happen is just not what I think is meant to happen. Again though, these games are subjective. So if you want to take it as gospel, then go right ahead. But don't force me to as well.

 

And all of your other points are purely assumptions that aren't able to be fully predicted. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you are just as right in saying there will be hardly any mutinies as I am in saying there are possibilities of there being some.

 

Again, it goes on your preference. And I think that's why we aren't coming to an agreement which is completely fine.

 

I believe personally that the courier is a strong enough figure (both in his image seen by others and physically) to completely revamp the NCR before it's too late. For this reason, I choose them.

[scottym23]

Who says the tech of how to make more securitrons is lost?

Who says there isn't a manufacturing facility in the Securitron vault?

 

The reason House or Yesman can't make any more might just be the lack of power, remember you need to get more power for House/Yesman in some of the last stages of the game from a switch station. :wink:

That's a good point lol. Guess it's up to your own imagination whether there was or not. I'm not too sure personally what I want to believe, but either way the courier isn't privy to the information directly so i'm going to play it on the side of caution and assume there isn't until proven otherwise.

[blaze1514]

 

 

1- Yes They are sooo easy to hack. I mean that is why it only happened ONCE since House took over. And that was before the added security firewalls of the Mk II upgrade.

 

 

I think we simply aren't looking at the question from the same perspective of who would be better for future growth and stability in the Mojave. I never said or claimed to know how easy it was to hack into the systems, so why make it sound like I was saying that? Even still, it doesn't matter if there's a 95% chance no one will ever hack it. That 5% chance is more than enough to make me unwilling to use the securitrons for a primary defense force.

 

And we can talk about the exact canon such as the end credit scene, but who is the narrator anyway? Someone who looked back on history from credible sources and is recounting it? I don't put full faith into his summation of what goes on after the fact. You and only you shape the future of the courier. My experience and outcome is never the same as anyone else's playthrough, because I decided to kill or spare certain people. I decided to complete some quests and not complete some, and do so in different ways. To say the narrator is this omnipotent being who states with 100% certainty everything that will happen is just not what I think is meant to happen. Again though, these games are subjective. So if you want to take it as gospel, then go right ahead. But don't force me to as well.

 

And all of your other points are purely assumptions that aren't able to be fully predicted. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you are just as right in saying there will be hardly any mutinies as I am in saying there are possibilities of there being some.

 

Again, it goes on your preference. And I think that's why we aren't coming to an agreement which is completely fine.

 

I believe personally that the courier is a strong enough figure (both in his image seen by others and physically) to completely revamp the NCR before it's too late. For this reason, I choose them.

 

 

- First. I am looking at this from the perspective of who would be better for the Mohave.

Who matters more to New Vegas and its surrounding settlements. The powerful influential figurehead that lives in the area and knows the people? Or the corrupt representatives based hundreds of miles away?

This goes back to US civil war mentality. When the State leaders you have known all of your life declare war against a country you already are growing to hate and feel dissociated with... you probably are not going to oppose the decision.

Now lets say that this happens and the Mohave is a NCR territory. How is involving the Mohave in yet another war going to help its stability?

 

- I know you never calmed that you knew how easy they are to hack. The fact is though that they are WAY less likely to be hacked than the NCR is to fall apart.

 

- YOU cannot just decide what you accept as canon. Bethesda is the one who gets that privilege because it is their IP. You can decide what canon doesn't fit or doesn't make sense.... However, it still happened whether you like it or not. The fact is that Fallout is no different than Halo (with many things that are inconsistent and do not make sense), or Star Wars (that have many things that fans wish didn't happen). Its an art-form yes, but one that tells a story. What lessons you take from that story and its exact meta meaning are up to you. But the artist decides what the official statement is. As of now no exact ending as been confirmed as cannon (although the Independent is hinted at being it). So We are going off of the slides at the end (and anything that can happen in between or after or wasn't touched on). The games themselves are very subjective, but the lore and cannon is not that way.

 

- None of my points are purely assumptions. I used historic knowledge of past civil successions and wars, the evidence provided by dialogue with NPCs, plus general canon knowledge and facts. Its not hard to figure out that

A, If things keep going the way they are for the NCR. There is going to be some kind of massive upset of the general populace.

B, No one wants to be there anyway. For the most part NCR troopers and travelers Hate the Mohave. Some even going as far to say that Vegas itself wasn't special (when compared to other cities that have been rebuilt).

C, The dam is the only thing out there that is really worth fighting for. If you win the dam as Independent Vegas, then agreed to keep giving the NCR power. Then they wouldn't even want to stay...

 

You are the one that seems to be assuming things. You talk about someone hacking the securitrons. When it took one of the most brilliant people alive (that was not in the enclave) weeks if i remember correctly. to get Yesman functional. Then add to that the Mk II security updates...... I think that the chances of a securitron being hacked now are more .01% than 5%. Then you talk about factions with know prior evidence or dialogue hinting at a betrayal.... betraying.

 

- No its not better because its my preference (my preference is the NCR ending). The fact is that the Independent ending is just better because we are able to speculate on things. The NCR ending is not as good because it basically gives you an almost exact report of what happens for a long term (long term in the since that it is not all right after the battle like the independent). For all we know about the Independent ending the courier could negotiate treaties and such with the NCR in exchange for power from the dam. The openness of it is what makes it so much better. It is why it is the "best option". You cannot make mods like This on any of the other endings without running into cannon roadblocks.

Edited September 19, 2014 by blaze1514