Companion Mods...

[ElricOfGrans]

I love the idea of an adventuring party. It is what this genre is all about: a bunch of nerds around a table, I mean, a bunch of heroes charging around the world! When I discovered companion mods for Oblivion, I was really excited, but I have been met with only disappointment. I do not blame the mods themselves, as I am pretty sure the issue is the Oblivion AI system and/or me, but every companion I have tried has made the game *less* enjoyable. They wander into obviously difficult terrain and get stuck, they use their prescient powers to detect enemies through walls and get stuck in odd AI issues where they try to run through the wall and cannot get out of this mode, they get in your way during combat. I have found them to be a major hassle. Despite this, there are a bajillion mods out there and lots of people seem to enjoy using these. I think that suggests the problem is with me.

 

I have tried The Shadow Ranger (the pet was rarely NOT stuck, and in the way the rest of the time), Rhianna and Neeshka (both kept running off and doing their own thing, getting in the way, or getting caught in loops where their scripts could not work out which of two actions to take), Vilja (kept running off/getting in the way/got stuck in weird dialogue loops). I briefly tried Rammy's Enfant, but quickly realised it was not the kind of mod I was looking for (maybe if I ever make a character who I want to play as her sworn guardian or something). Ruined-Tail sounded interesting, but I was concerned his plot would take-over from the rest of the game and did not try him out.

 

I have a suspicion my neewbiness may be to play here. When I first tried companions, nothing seemed to work. A little later, I started experimenting with Wrye Bash and the companions seemed to work better (along with all my other mods!!), so I suspect there is something in that. Are there any steps I should be taking (perhaps with Wrye Bash and/or load order) to make companions work better? Are there any particular mods/types of mods that companions are known to work poorly with? Am I perhaps trying the wrong companions from the beginning? Are my expectations just too high, or perhaps there is a `certain way' you need to play when using companions?

[David Brasher]

It is a basic issue with the Oblivion game engine. The AI of companions is just not good. The best-written companion mod will be a disappointment to you if you have average expectations.

 

If you have tried companion mods and don't like them, then I suggest you stop using them.

 

Companions have:

 

(1) Terrible AI

(2) Terrible combat AI

(3) Not much personality. Not much dialog.

(4) No aptitude for teamwork.

(5) Very few commands they will understand and follow.

(6) Resistance to having their gear changed.

(7) The tendency to lose special weapons you give them.

(8) Godlike indestructibility (and incredible stupidity) OR great fragility (and incredible stupidity.)

 

 

But all that aside, it can be quite fun having companions.

[Emma]

 

I have tried The Shadow Ranger (the pet was rarely NOT stuck, and in the way the rest of the time), Rhianna and Neeshka (both kept running off and doing their own thing, getting in the way, or getting caught in loops where their scripts could not work out which of two actions to take), Vilja (kept running off/getting in the way/got stuck in weird dialogue loops). I briefly tried Rammy's Enfant, but quickly realised it was not the kind of mod I was looking for (maybe if I ever make a character who I want to play as her sworn guardian or something). Ruined-Tail sounded interesting, but I was concerned his plot would take-over from the rest of the game and did not try him out.

 

I have a suspicion my neewbiness may be to play here. When I first tried companions, nothing seemed to work. A little later, I started experimenting with Wrye Bash and the companions seemed to work better (along with all my other mods!!), so I suspect there is something in that. Are there any steps I should be taking (perhaps with Wrye Bash and/or load order) to make companions work better? Are there any particular mods/types of mods that companions are known to work poorly with? Am I perhaps trying the wrong companions from the beginning? Are my expectations just too high, or perhaps there is a `certain way' you need to play when using companions?

 

 

As Rhianna, Neeshka and Vilja are the probably most stable companions out there (been testing lots of them before I started out on making Vilja), you probably won't be happier with any of the others. Although, give it 3-4 days and then download the new version 2 of Vilja. Her scripts have been thoroughly reworked by CdCooley, and she actually now is the only OB-companion I have seen who follows order really good, who can sneak through a whole dungeon without attacking and who can stay out of fight until she is attacked by an enemy or you are close to dying.

Hopefully that version will be released this weekend - I believe this will happen, we just have some final playtesting to do.

 

On a side-note I'm very surprised about what you say about Vilja and 'dialog-loops'. That's not normal at all and no-one else has reported any such problem during the 5 months she has been released. Could it be that this was before you adjusted your loadorder or could it be something else strange that happened in your game? Or could it even be that the looping dialog was from another mod, and that's why you/she couldn't get out of it (if it wasn't voiced, it was definintely from another mod).

 

There is a good general rule when a previously functioning companion starts 'misbehaving' (and you haven't just added a new mod without running Bash). Bring the companion to a safe interior location. Leave him/her there. Go somewhere else and rest for +72 game hours (or go and crawl dungeons for +72 game hours without returning to the companion). After this period of time, you are very likely to find that your companion is behaving normal again.

 

There *are* mods that companions work poorly with, yes... Any mod that includs areas that are not properly path-gridded! And that is true for many, many housemods and I suspect just as many dungeons.

 

The companion is 'blind'. He/she doesn't 'see' the environment (especially not if you are in a mod-area, as mods work in 'layers', one layer for each mod. So your companion is in his/her layer and the mod-house/dungeon in its own layer). Therefore, the pathgrids are necessary for a decent following behaviour. If the modders have forgotten to add pathgrids to their interiors/exteriors, you can't expect any companion to follow well. (I even tried a housemod where the modder had put the path-grids *outside* the house. I think you can guess what happened - I could hear Vilja talk, but she was running around in her path-gridded limbo, unable to enter the house).

 

Another thing to consider is that the companion doesnt have any sense of the Z-level. If you are high up on a balcony and there's an enemy right below it, one would have hoped that the marksman companion in tow wouold use his/her bow, right? Well, I'm afraid not. As the companion doesn't 'feel' height differences she will imagine that the enemy is next to her and dash off to beat him up with a sword instead. This is annoying, but when one understands why it happens, and that it's not 'the companion's fault' it might be easier to live with it...

 

I still think companions are worth it... I wouldn't go anywhere without Vilja and Neeshka. They brighten up my Cyrodiil life quite a lot. (And it IS fully possibly to tell Vilja to keep quiet ;)).

 

Again... I think you should give Vilja ver 2 a try. I think CdCooley has done a wonderful job on improving her scripts, and I believe that the improved combat behaviour matches what so many of us have been wishing for. (although it might not work fully in all modder-made dungeons!)

 

If there are no hiccups, this version should be available within less than a week.

 

 

 

(1) Terrible AI

(2) Terrible combat AI

(3) Not much personality. Not much dialog.

(4) No aptitude for teamwork.

(5) Very few commands they will understand and follow.

(6) Resistance to having their gear changed.

(7) The tendency to lose special weapons you give them.

(8) Godlike indestructibility (and incredible stupidity) OR great fragility (and incredible stupidity.)

 

1-2) Agreed... However, I think you'll find that CdCooley's work on Vilja will mean a huge improvement.

3) You probably haven't met this lady. Ver 1 include +1400 lines of fully voiced dialog, upcoming ver 2 +2800 entries.

4) Agreed. A team of companions are pretty useless together, as they work in 'layers' (see above) and won't be aware of each others actions (new version of Vilja is however also introducing interaction between the layers)

5) Combat instructions, you mean?

6) Hmm... have met very few companions who disagrees on having their gear changed. They gladly change if you give them something better to wear.

7) Agreed! So they never get any special weapons in my game :p

8) With the Companion resurrect mod, one can have them non-essential without having to reload game if they die.

[ElricOfGrans]

It is a shame the issues are universal. I had hoped they were just me. Thank you.

 

Thank you also for the inner-workings insight, Emma. Some of the strange behaviour makes more sense given your explanations. Perhaps with this knowledge I could have more success? For example, Rhianna and I were once attacked by a Conjurer on a balcony. She drew her sword and stood below the balcony, just at the edge of it. I spent ages trying to convince her to move, but ended up having to leave her behind to die while I ran around to get to the stairs. I could not understand this before, but now I can and could anticipate it if it happened again. In vanilla areas, should I expect path-grids to usually be fine (laid out for enemies, perhaps), or do enemies and NPCs use different methods for finding their way through `the dark'? `Resetting' behaviour by leaving them behind sounds like something I may need to try too. This 72+ hours, is it somehow tied to the respawn time, or something unrelated? I have respawns set to every 10 days, and would hate to leave a companion behind for that long. Perhaps I should play `tag-team companions' and swapped them when their scripts break?

 

I agree, Vilja had personality. She was the closest to what I was looking for, so I will definitely give her another try with improved scripts. I liked the way she talked (her best point), though I felt she spoke too frequently. I did not want her to stop talking, but she ran out of new things to say very quickly. I think she cycled through her random dialogue every day or two (I have timescale set to 5, so I have long days). I do not think Vilja liked me much either. When I sat down, she moved to another room to sit at another table. I knew companions could only use certain chairs, so I moved to a chair at the table she chose. She them moved to yet another table in another room. She did not like me much. Vilja also walked/stood so very far behind my character. Do I need to bathe more often? I use soap every morning with the bathing mod!

 

The looping dialogue could have been caused by something else. If no one else had it, this seems likely. It was all voiced, so definitely her dialogue. I am currently having a lot of issues with my mods (problems that first appeared about when I was trialling Vilja), so it is possible that was one of the first-signs of something about to go wrong with my install.

[Emma]

It is a shame the issues are universal. I had hoped they were just me. Thank you.

 

Thank you also for the inner-workings insight, Emma. Some of the strange behaviour makes more sense given your explanations. Perhaps with this knowledge I could have more success? For example, Rhianna and I were once attacked by a Conjurer on a balcony. She drew her sword and stood below the balcony, just at the edge of it. I spent ages trying to convince her to move, but ended up having to leave her behind to die while I ran around to get to the stairs. I could not understand this before, but now I can and could anticipate it if it happened again. In vanilla areas, should I expect path-grids to usually be fine (laid out for enemies, perhaps), or do enemies and NPCs use different methods for finding their way through `the dark'?

 

Well, if one understand what is happening, it's easier to accept 'flaws', isn't it :smile:.

I think you can safely assume that vanilla areas are pretty well path-gridded and should work relatively fine for companions. With the exception where there are height-differences, of course, like the balcony scenario we discussed. If you have problems in modded areas, you should consider gnarling at the modders instead of at the companions ;).

 

 

`Resetting' behaviour by leaving them behind sounds like something I may need to try too. This 72+ hours, is it somehow tied to the respawn time, or something unrelated? I have respawns set to every 10 days, and would hate to leave a companion behind for that long. Perhaps I should play `tag-team companions' and swapped them when their scripts break?

 

It is related to the respawn time, so if you have changed this setting it may be that you have to wait longer also for companions to reset. I really don't know the answer to this, as I have never tried prolonged respawn times (I would be interested to know, though!)

 

I agree, Vilja had personality. She was the closest to what I was looking for, so I will definitely give her another try with improved scripts. I liked the way she talked (her best point), though I felt she spoke too frequently. I did not want her to stop talking, but she ran out of new things to say very quickly. I think she cycled through her random dialogue every day or two (I have timescale set to 5, so I have long days).

 

She has 1400 dialog entries in ver 1. Some of them won't show up until you have learnt to know her better, so in the beginning some might show up more often. They are not cycling, they are based on random 100. In ver 2 she will 'only' talk with intervals of 40-60 seconds, which is a bit slowed down compared to ver 1. And, she'll have approx 2500 dialog entries, so it should be quite a variety.

 

I do not think Vilja liked me much either. When I sat down, she moved to another room to sit at another table. I knew companions could only use certain chairs, so I moved to a chair at the table she chose. She them moved to yet another table in another room. She did not like me much.

 

Lol, I'm sure she liked you :smile:. However, from what I have seen, companions tend to go to the chair in the interior that was first placed in the CS (as I have made some house-mods I have noted that she always go for the chair I placed first in the cell). When you sit down, she'll head for that chair. When you raise, she is triggered to leave her chair and find another... probably the second chair placed in the cell. It could very well be that if you had just moved to the chair next to where you were sitting, she would have come to you. It has absolutely nothing to do with her disposition towards you, that I am sure of.

 

Vilja also walked/stood so very far behind my character. Do I need to bathe more often? I use soap every morning with the bathing mod!

Hehe, don't think that would help! But, if she was standing very far away from you, that's an indication of that something isn't right. a 72 hours separation would most likely have cured this (the 72 hours wait tends to sort out a surprising amount of problems not only with companions but with all npcs. As said before, I would be very interested to know what happens if your respawn time is changed like you describe). Could it have been that when you added Vilja you had another companion in tow which you left behind somewhere without telling him/her to go into wait mode? I have seen that this tends to make a new follower walk further away from the player. Also, if she is wearing heavy armor this makes her move slower, as is valid for all npcs.

 

The looping dialogue could have been caused by something else. If no one else had it, this seems likely. It was all voiced, so definitely her dialogue. I am currently having a lot of issues with my mods (problems that first appeared about when I was trialling Vilja), so it is possible that was one of the first-signs of something about to go wrong with my install.

 

Yes, it could have been. If others have had similar problems, they haven't reported them to me, which wouold be sad, cause if there it a problem I believe that most of us modders do wish to attend to and solve it.

If you decide to try out Vilja ver 2 (no point in starting with ver 1 again), would you be so kind and let me know if you have any issues with her? :smile:

[TabuKuroshi]

I like to use Sonia and Montanas companion. For the reason that when they act silly, get stuck and what not. I can summon them to my side and move along. If you haven't tried either give em a shot, they are much more in depth than the ordinary companions out there. Montanas has some AO features, so if you aren't into that stuff, you might want to pass.

[ElricOfGrans]

Definitely, understanding the reasoning behind the behaviour is making it easier to accept. The chair issue makes sense now too. I guess if I just learn where a companion is going to sit, I can adapt for future. I thought they just behaved completely bizarrely! I will definitely give the new Vilja a try. More dialogue and improved scripts are enough to peak my interest.

 

Though not offended by it, I am not into the AO stuff. I have not tried Sonia before, but shall give her a try when I next head toward that part of the world.

[MrUniq]

I created 4 companions that's been out for years..and they aren't too shabby. They are the only ones I use, not because of vanity but because I spents alot of time balancing them.