spoiler Alistair, King Cailan, Loghain's betrayal & an unrecognized Grey Warden.

[GoldenAngelHeart]

I had no idea that Slim Couldry had elven blood.

As I said though, I haven't read any of the books but the only other one (besides Goldanna's mother) I had ever heard of was Fiona. Eventually, I will get around to reading the books.

 

I do, however, agree with Thandal on the fanfic of the books. I rather like the fact that my Warden and Warden Alistair just up and disappear together one day together.

It's much better than giving him the crown, marrying him and then after some years just up and leave him like that. It's confusing trying to figure out the lines between the game and the books.

Could be why I haven't been in too big of a hurry to read any of them.

 

Interesting little tid-bits that I am learning in this post and it will be even more interesting to find out Alistair's true lineage when DA:I comes out.

[Thandal]

Slim Couldry is elf blooded, and entirely human in appearance.

 

I've played through a dozen-or-more times, and read (ok, skimmed) through all the Codex entries. Don't remember any reference to Slim's parentage at all.

 

Is this another bit of lore that comes from "other sources" than the games themselves?

[theskymoves]

 

Slim Couldry is elf blooded, and entirely human in appearance.

 

I've played through a dozen-or-more times, and read (ok, skimmed) through all the Codex entries. Don't remember any reference to Slim's parentage at all.

 

Is this another bit of lore that comes from "other sources" than the games themselves?

 

 

In his dialogue, he mentions growing up in the Alienage.

[Thandal]

In his dialogue, he mentions growing up in the Alienage.

 

Dang! Now I gotta' playthrough again to that point and try to verify!

 

Oh well, I was already about 1/4 of the way through with a re-play just to try a new mod. :laugh:

[Question2]

The betrayal at ostagar seemed very much like a plot device. Loghain's reasons were weak and even if he didnt want Cailan as king, he should have realised the downsides of the plan when facing an army of darkspawn (blight or no blight). Losing a good portion of your army, morale from losing the king and the inevitable civil war was not conducive to the war effort and as a seasoned general, Loghain should have realised this.

 

The fact that his army didnt mutiny when Loghain ordered the retreat instead of sticking to the plan was amazing enough. Especially considering this was the plan he was pushing for at the war council.

 

Unfortunately Bioware was probably trying to stick to their tried and tested "plot device occurs, the authorities are retarded, your party of heroes needs to gather allies and help defeat the ancient evil" plot that they have been reusing repeatedly. If you look at knights of the old republic, mass effect and dragon age, the basic plot is the same. They all involve travelling around and finding allies to help defeat some ancient evil. Bioware needed the king to die or the NPCs would be too competent without the PCs.

[mcgoy]

 

In his dialogue, he mentions growing up in the Alienage.

 

Dang! Now I gotta' playthrough again to that point and try to verify!

 

Oh well, I was already about 1/4 of the way through with a re-play just to try a new mod. :laugh:

 

 

Slim may have been elf blooded.... or he may have been an elf in the original design and the line was just never changed. In his description (in the .chr file) he is identified as being a "Little fellow with big ideas" In the game.... he is far FAR from being a 'little fellow'.

 

In the toolset, the file names indicate that there are several dwarves in Lothering, but the actual NPCs that the player sees are human. The dialogue for the merchant arguing with the Chantry sister is identified by his dlg file as 'dwarf_merchant'.

 

So Slim might have elf blood or the line might be a mistake. My City Elf GW would have recognized him or his family if he had grown up in the Alienage :huh: so she assumed that he was exaggerating about the whole 'alienage' thing. It isn't like the other elves wouldn't have talked about the halfbreed (and his mother) for YEARS after he left. :rolleyes:

 

 

question2 - it isn't just a Bioware plot device, it is a pretty standard device across a lot of recreational media (games, books, movies....) I can see the army sticking with Loghain because they would have been attacking against overwhelming odds - a retreat was a wise decision (premeditated on the part of Loghain or not). I can see the army blaming the GWs because they would want to blame someone. 'There were overwhelming odds so we ran like bunnies' doesn't seem as heroic as 'Loghain had to organize a strategic retreat because of the betrayal of the Grey Wardens'. The first says "I'm a coward", the second says "it was all the GW's fault!" But there are so many logic issues associated with Loghain that it borders on ridiculous. If Cailan hadn't died, Loghain (and Howe) would have had a very hard time avoiding charges of treason.

[Thandal]

The betrayal at ostagar seemed very much like a plot device. Loghain's reasons were weak and even if he didnt want Cailan as king, he should have realised the downsides of the plan when facing an army of darkspawn (blight or no blight)...

 

I thought basically the same thing myself. Then my son pointed out that by the time the Army has reached Ostagar, Loghain has gone mad with paranoia due to his hatred of Orlais. He has focused that hatred on Cailan since the King (in his mind, a pale imitation of his beloved Maric) has been in secret correspondence with the Empress, and is on the brink of allowing, nay, inviting the Chevaliers back into Ferelden! As far as he is concerned, Cailan is the traitor!

 

It's not made nearly clear enough in the game, although if one reads all the relevant Codex entries carefully, the picture is more clear.

 

The comics/novels are where all this is laid out in detail.

[GoldenAngelHeart]

Also, both Loghain and Howe felt that the Couslands were traitors along with King Cailan because of Bryce Cousland's dealings with the Empress to help broker peace between the two countries. The attack on Highever Castle and the Cousland family was because of that, albeit also Howe's lust for more power.

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

 

Any time that my Warden and Alistair ran into people sent by Loghain, it was always my Warden and not Alistair that was considered the threat against Loghain and his ambitions to rule Ferelden. In Lothering, Loghain's men said that it was my Warden and not Alistair that they were searching for and needed to arrest, maim or kill.

In the Frostback mountains the bounty hunters say ''It's about time a warden showed up'' instead of wardens and in Denerim, the knight that stops my Warden and accuses her of killing Duncan, the rest of the wardens and King Cailan not both of them insists on dueling her because he felt she was at fault, not both her and Alistair. Even the Captain of the Guard in Denerim says it was her likeness that was shown to all the guards, not both of their's. Plus, Zevran says ''The Grey Warden dies here'' not Wardens. Loghain knew that Alistair was also a warden and that he was a Prince. So why is my Warden the only one recognized by these people looking to either kill her or arrest her?

 

I never go anywhere without Alistair because with the right tactics set-up he is a superb tank. But I cannot understand why, when we are out and about running into all these accusers, Alistair is not recognized at a Grey Warden and Loghain's biggest threat to the throne.

 

The most likely reason this happens is not an internal one (story driven) but an external one (development).

 

I imagine this happens because rather than create more dialogue that is based on whether or not you have Alistair, it is just easier to have dialogue that "works" whether you have Alistair with you or not.

 

Not everyone chooses to have Alistair with them 100% of the time after all.

 

EDIT: Also, having the characters call you "The Warden" is a lot easier than having the game try to figure out how to pronounce your name or having 6 different dialogues (or however many different possible surnames there are) for each time a person would refer to you based on your last name.

 

Regarding the other stuff, while Cailan and Alistair have similarities, I find those similarities to be no more than many people and thus ultimately do not see them as being that similar.

 

I mean one could argue that in order to see true similarities between individuals, one must look to their motivations, and in that sense the two are very different so I truly do not think that Cailan's problem was that he simply wasn't hardened.

 

Come to think of it, I don't think that was Alistair's problem either. I think developmental elements (budget, time constraints, etc) often require certain things to be oversimplified. Regardless, I do not believe that Cailan could/would have been more like Alistair had he been "hardened" in a similar fashion.

 

But this is all just merely an opinion. )