The Tea Party

[Retribution]

You people need to stop talking about Fox in the way you are. It's less biased than other major news stations. Hell, it's even less biased than NPR. Just because it's different than a lot of the other news stations (less biased) doesn't mean it's biased. Obviously, on Fox they have the news, and then they have opinion pieces. You can't call the opinion pieces biased.

[Aurielius]

The vitriol from the right-wingers (and yes, in my experience, it's been right-wingers who are the most hostile) in this thread is a perfect example of why I stopped participating in the political sections of other forums. They take every chance they get to attack people who don't agree with them no matter where they sit on the political spectrum, and just love to make statements like "oh so it's not ok to disagree with liberals" etc. I wonder if it's because they are bitter about how the one media outlet that has a (heavy) conservative bias (and lies about it) is seen as a joke by anyone not on the far right. And the other two have either a tacitly-acknowledge leftward slant, or just plain irrelevant. :rolleyes:

I am not aware of any vitriol in my post, but if you could enlighten me then I would be in your debt. I am conservative, but on the moderate end of the spectrum. From what I can see both extremes are wiping out their swords before their opponents last words have barely left their lips. The division that currently exists is easily laid at the feet of both parties, your knee jerk reaction proves my point. As for the media bias that exists, it has always been there but now we see more of it, a rational person discounts the bias and moves on to form their own opinion. That is unless you believe the pablum that is being fed to you by by the outlet of your choice. Just my two cents.

[ginnyfizz]

Thank you for listening, Aurielieus. That is exactly what I was trying to say. I had never considered his particular viewpoint regarding the direction for the Republican party and found it worthy of my consideration. And, yes Liberals can reason, Ginnyfizz. And nor do I hold Republicans solely responsible for the division within American politics. As a matter of fact, in my humble opinion, I'm beginning to see less and less of a difference between the two primary parties in this particular country every day.

 

Ginnyfizz, although this is a debate site, and you are certainly entitled to disagree and debate with me, I sometimes get the feeling that you don't always take the time to listen to me first. You've correctly made an assumption that I lean more towards the left than the right, so I get the impression that you immediately jump in feet first on the attack. The fact is I have frequently been known to take the other side of an argument, because I am a "thinking" liberal, and I don't just speak without thinking first.

 

- In the first place, I never said that Liberals cannot reason. So why the "And yes Liberals can reason, Ginnyfizz." ? Please explain why you directed that at me because I certainly can't understand it.

 

- In the second place, be so kind as to re-read your second paragraph, in which you actually make an unfounded allegation that I jump in feet first on the attack and that I don't listen to you first. I had read your post and picked up on your comment that another poster was a voice of reason in a maelstrom of dissonance and discord. Which seemed to me to suggest that those in this thread who were arguing and standing their corner were rather unreasonable and acting as troublemakers. This is a DEBATES thread, goodness if you think this gets heated, check out any political debating chamber anywhere in the world!

 

Anyways, I will voluntarily get back on topic, and get back to be one of the voices crying in the wilderness, and to my main argument which is this. People in the United States really should be allowed to consider what the Tea Party have to say as expounded in the Contract. What they can do without are the smear tactics that are being used by people who should be thinking of putting their own houses in order before swiping at them. Why does a Brit like me care? Because as jim_uk and I have both pointed out, we in the UK have had thirteen years of the sort of policies that Obama is espousing. The country is going bust and to hell in a handcart because Blair and Brown spent money like the public purse was bottomless, keeping people dependent on the state and themselves in power. And now, in order to stave off disaster and meltdown, the new Coalition is going to have to swing the axe at public services, and savagely. I'd hate to see that happen to the USA, and the way I see it, the Tea Party have actually grasped that nettle . They should not, therefore, be dismissed as dangerous lunatics en masse.

[grannywils]

Once again I find myself having to agree with Aurielius to a certain extent. We need to find a way to make our own choices and decisions. Aurielius is a "moderate conservative". I don't know what, if any, tv station he uses for news. In my household we are liberal. My husband, especially during the presidential run, insisted on watching MSNBC. Now I enjoy MSNBC and I truly believe that they deliver news; but I know that it has a liberal bias, just like I know that FOX has a conservative bias. More than once I suggested that we might be better served by listening to what other people had to say as well, at least once in awhile. He was also reading a lot of blogs every morning. But again, he chose the ones with whom he agreed. I liked to occasionally check in on some of the more conservative ones, just to get another perspective. The following is my personal opinion only. I think that FOX news is a joke. I do not believe for one minute that what they purport to be news is news, and in some instances I think that they set out to deceive the public. However, as stated, this is my opinion and I am capable of making a simple choice and changing the channel. We all have that choice, but there are far too many who just don't seem to remember that they can make it. Whether liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican, some of us have a lemming-like tendency to just follow along with whatever we've been doing all along, and forget that we have a brain and that maybe if we used it now and again it might serve us better.

[grannywils]

Thank you for listening, Aurielieus. That is exactly what I was trying to say. I had never considered his particular viewpoint regarding the direction for the Republican party and found it worthy of my consideration. And, yes Liberals can reason, Ginnyfizz. And nor do I hold Republicans solely responsible for the division within American politics. As a matter of fact, in my humble opinion, I'm beginning to see less and less of a difference between the two primary parties in this particular country every day.

 

Ginnyfizz, although this is a debate site, and you are certainly entitled to disagree and debate with me, I sometimes get the feeling that you don't always take the time to listen to me first. You've correctly made an assumption that I lean more towards the left than the right, so I get the impression that you immediately jump in feet first on the attack. The fact is I have frequently been known to take the other side of an argument, because I am a "thinking" liberal, and I don't just speak without thinking first.

 

- In the first place, I never said that Liberals cannot reason. So why the "And yes Liberals can reason, Ginnyfizz." ? Please explain why you directed that at me because I certainly can't understand it.

 

- In the second place, be so kind as to re-read your second paragraph, in which you actually make an unfounded allegation that I jump in feet first on the attack and that I don't listen to you first. I had read your post and picked up on your comment that another poster was a voice of reason in a maelstrom of dissonance and discord. Which seemed to me to suggest that those in this thread who were arguing and standing their corner were rather unreasonable and acting as troublemakers. This is a DEBATES thread, goodness if you think this gets heated, check out any political debating chamber anywhere in the world!

 

Anyways, I will voluntarily get back on topic, and get back to be one of the voices crying in the wilderness, and to my main argument which is this. People in the United States really should be allowed to consider what the Tea Party have to say as expounded in the Contract. What they can do without are the smear tactics that are being used by people who should be thinking of putting their own houses in order before swiping at them. Why does a Brit like me care? Because as jim_uk and I have both pointed out, we in the UK have had thirteen years of the sort of policies that Obama is espousing. The country is going bust and to hell in a handcart because Blair and Brown spent money like the public purse was bottomless, keeping people dependent on the state and themselves in power. And now, in order to stave off disaster and meltdown, the new Coalition is going to have to swing the axe at public services, and savagely. I'd hate to see that happen to the USA, and the way I see it, the Tea Party have actually grasped that nettle . They should not, therefore, be dismissed as dangerous lunatics en masse.

 

Ginnyfizz: Yes dear. Whatever you say is fine with me.

[Aurielius]

Ok, have stayed out of this until now, but what the hell...I have reprinted the contract and my views on each item of it.

 

 

Contract From America' is the platform.

 

The Contract lists 10 agenda items that it encourages congressional candidates to follow:

 

1. Identify constitutionality of every new law: Require each bill to identify the specific provision of the Constitution that gives Congress the power to do what the bill does.

 

This will make the deliberations in Congress even slower than they are but could prove useful in slowing down the challanges to them at a latter date in the courts.

 

 

2. Reject emissions trading: Stop the "cap and trade" administrative approach used to control pollution by providing economic incentives for achieving reductions in the emissions of pollutants.

 

Trade and Cap is just bait and switch, either control pollution or admit you are doing nothing effective.

 

3. Demand a balanced federal budget: Begin the Constitutional amendment process to require a balanced budget with a two-thirds majority needed for any tax modification

 

Absolutely love this idea, about damn time.

 

4. Simplify the tax system: Adopt a simple and fair single-rate tax system by scrapping the internal revenue code and replacing it with one that is no longer than 4,543 words -- the length of the original Constitution.

 

If you run your own business, then you know what a encrypted mess the tax code is.

 

5. Audit federal government agencies for constitutionality: Create a Blue Ribbon taskforce that engages in an audit of federal agencies and programs, assessing their Constitutionality, and identifying duplication, waste, ineffectiveness, and agencies and programs better left for the states or local authorities.

 

Interesting but who will be the arbiter of this concept.

 

6. Limit annual growth in federal spending: Impose a statutory cap limiting the annual growth in total federal spending to the sum of the inflation rate plus the percentage of population growth.

 

Love to see it, but doubt it will ever go into effect.

 

7. Repeal the health care legislation passed on March 23, 2010: Defund, repeal and replace the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

 

Will take a pass, we should have some form of universal health care even a bad one is better than none.

 

8. Pass an 'All-of-the-Above' Energy Policy: Authorize the exploration of additional energy reserves to reduce American dependence on foreign energy sources and reduce regulatory barriers to all other forms of energy creation.

 

Like more energy, deregulation assumes that those you deregulate are good citizens...not evidenced by corporate behavior to date.

 

9. Reduce Earmarks: Place a moratorium on all earmarks until the budget is balanced, and then require a 2/3 majority to pass any earmark

 

Get rid of earmarks completely.....repeal the concept completely..

 

10. Reduce Taxes: Permanently repeal all recent tax increases, and extend permanently the George W. Bush temporary reductions in income tax, capital gains tax and estate taxes, currently scheduled to end in 2011

 

Being middle class this would suit me but am not sure if it would ever be equitable to all..

 

Basically I agree with the agenda but am not too sure about the messenger, if this is just an an atempt to bring the moderate conservatives back into the fold without actually pursuing it, then I will be pissed

[ginnyfizz]

I hardly think that the last post by Grannywils is in any way constructive in this debate. The main thrust of my argument is that I would hate to see the USA go down the chute like Britain has after thirteen years of profligacy, and that I think that the Tea Party holds some of the answers, should their contract be implemented. And that therefore, they should be heard and not dismissed. It is difficult to explain because, until now, the USA has never had an administration that so resembles one of our dreadful Labour governments...until now. So some people in the USA cannot see the danger, that's quite understandable. I am just talking from the other side of the pond that now faces the reckoning due after the years of boundless spending, and that's why I have such strong feelings about it.

[grannywils]

I hardly think that the last post by Grannywils is in any way constructive in this debate. The main thrust of my argument is that I would hate to see the USA go down the chute like Britain has after thirteen years of profligacy, and that I think that the Tea Party holds some of the answers, should their contract be implemented. And that therefore, they should be heard and not dismissed. It is difficult to explain because, until now, the USA has never had an administration that so resembles one of our dreadful Labour governments...until now. So some people in the USA cannot see the danger, that's quite understandable. I am just talking from the other side of the pond that now faces the reckoning due after the years of boundless spending, and that's why I have such strong feelings about it.

 

 

Ginnyfizz: I would like to pesonally apologize for my last remark to you. It was unnecessary, uncalled for and childish. I hereby rescind it.

[Sinophile]

4. Simplify the tax system: Adopt a simple and fair single-rate tax system by scrapping the internal revenue code and replacing it with one that is no longer than 4,543 words -- the length of the original Constitution.

 

If you run your own business, then you know what a encrypted mess the tax code is.

I used to work for H&R Block, and it seems to me that the tax system essentially encourages and discourages certain behaviors. For example, the child tax credit encourages you to have exactly two kids. There are also deductions for charities and retirement fund contributions. Using that same line of thinking, why not tax spending money instead of earning it(I.E. high sales tax, no income tax). Last I checked, it was spending money that lead to the current financial Crisis, not spending it.

 

10. Reduce Taxes: Permanently repeal all recent tax increases, and extend permanently the George W. Bush temporary reductions in income tax, capital gains tax and estate taxes, currently scheduled to end in 2011

The Estate Tax only affects the richest one third of one percent of the American population(which coincidentally includes almost the entire U.S. Senate and House). Who cares if some trust fund baby only gets 1.75 million dollars his dad's inheritances instead of the full 2 million? Also, I find it contradictory how they talk about balancing the budget, then talk about Bush. Under Clinton's administration, there was a huge surplus, but during Bush's reign, he achieved a record in National Debt.

 

People in the United States really should be allowed to consider what the Tea Party have to say as expounded in the Contract. What they can do without are the smear tactics that are being used by people who should be thinking of putting their own houses in order before swiping at them

Between their misspelled protest signs, calling everything they don't like socialism, Comparing Obama to Hitler, screaming at politicians without letting them talk, and stealing slogans from 4Chan, they seem to do a fine job of smearing themselves.

 

7. Repeal the health care legislation passed on March 23, 2010: Defund, repeal and replace the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.

 

Will take a pass, we should have some form of universal health care even a bad one is better than none.

How is the new legislation any worse than medicare? Americans already spend more on Medicare than National Defense. As far as Privatizing healthcare, one might point out that more research money is spent on cosmetic surgery and medications such as Enzyte and Viagara, go capitalism!! Are insurance companies really more trustworthy than the government? I have a lot more to say about healthcare, but I don't feel like it..

 

You people need to stop talking about Fox in the way you are. It's less biased than other major news stations. Hell, it's even less biased than NPR. Just because it's different than a lot of the other news stations (less biased) doesn't mean it's biased. Obviously, on Fox they have the news, and then they have opinion pieces. You can't call the opinion pieces biased.

The original intent of NPR was to have a news station that wasn't influences by ratings, although I believe that the government phased out their funding between 2004 and 2008, and therefore one can argue that they'd say anything to get their left-wing listeners to send in donations. Just out of curiosity, has anyone seen Citizen Kane? There are many similarities between William Hurs[sp?] and Rupert Murdoch, both men owned influential media outlets, and used them for political purposes.

[Aurielius]

I used to work for H&R Block, and it seems to me that the tax system essentially encourages and discourages certain behaviors. For example, the child tax credit encourages you to have exactly two kids. There are also deductions for charities and retirement fund contributions. Using that same line of thinking, why not tax spending money instead of earning it(I.E. high sales tax, no income tax). Last I checked, it was spending money that lead to the current financial Crisis, not spending it

 

What you are suggesting is VAT(Value Added Tax) which is what the Brits have to deal with, ask any Brit what they think of that. Given a choice between the Inland Revenue and the IRS it's no contest. I still prefer telling the government what I owe them rather than have them tell me what I owe them.

 

People in the United States really should be allowed to consider what the Tea Party have to say as expounded in the Contract. What they can do without are the smear tactics that are being used by people who should be thinking of putting their own houses in order before swiping at them

Between their misspelled protest signs, calling everything they don't like socialism, Comparing Obama to Hitler, screaming at politicians without letting them talk, and stealing slogans from 4Chan, they seem to do a fine job of smearing themselves.

 

I believe that the left is still trying to run against Bush though he has been out of office for over two years, without a bogeyman from the right they need to resurrect one. Probably because if they were forced to run on their record people would see what they really up to. I would point out to you that after two years in power one should run on your achievements such as they are.The media has practically deified Obama, giving him a pass on all of his missteps which had Bush committed the same he would have been roundly pilloried.

 

 

The original intent of NPR was to have a news station that wasn't influences by ratings, although I believe that the government phased out their funding between 2004 and 2008, and therefore one can argue that they'd say anything to get their left-wing listeners to send in donations. Just out of curiosity, has anyone seen Citizen Kane? There are many similarities between William Hurs[sp?] and Rupert Murdoch, both men owned influential media outlets, and used them for political purposes.

 

 

NPR= National Public Radio still gets funding at least according to their latest fund raising in May( though less than before) and is about as biased as Fox but in the opposite direction, at least Fox doesn't pretend to be a neutral observer. I listen to NPR often (it's wise to know what your opponents are thinking)..why is that left wing sacred cows are always off the menu?

 

Before this debate I was somewhat ambivalent about the Tea Party, thanks you made a convert...they will now have my support.