tips for Better Cities plugins placement ?

[Executor64]

Anyone willing to take a look at this mod list

 

Active Mod Files:

00  Oblivion.esm
01  Knights - Revelation.esm
02  CM Partners.esm
03  All Natural Base.esm  [Version 1.34]
04  Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esm  [Version 1.35Beta]
05  Francesco's Leveled Creatures-Items Mod.esm  [Version 5.0]
06  Francesco's Optional New Items Add-On.esm  [Version 5.0]
07  Jog_X_Mod.esm
08  Mart's Monster Mod.esm  [Version 3.8b1]
09  Better Cities Resources.esm  [Version 5.4.1]
0A  CURP_Controller.esm
0B  CyrodiilUpgradeResourcePack.esm
0C  Cobl Main.esm  [Version 1.73]
0D  FCOM_Convergence.esm  [Version 0.9.9MB8b1]
0E  Oblivifall Master File.esm  [Version 1.2]
0F  Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp  [Version 3.4.4]
++  USIPS Additional Changes.esp
10  UOPS Additional Changes.esp
11  DLCShiveringIsles.esp
12  Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp  [Version 1.5.2]
13  DLCBattlehornCastle.esp
14  DLCBattlehornCastle - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.8]
15  DLCThievesDen.esp
16  DLCThievesDen - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.11]
17  DLCMehrunesRazor.esp
18  DLCMehrunesRazor - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.6]
19  DLCVileLair.esp
1A  DLCVileLair - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.9]
1B  DLCHorseArmor.esp
1C  DLCHorseArmor - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.8]
1D  DLCOrrery.esp
1E  DLCOrrery - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.5]
1F  DLCSpellTomes.esp
++  DLCSpellTomes - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.1]
20  DLCFrostcrag.esp
21  DLCFrostcrag - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.8]
22  Knights.esp
23  Knights - Unofficial Patch.esp  [Version 1.1.3]
++  Mart's Monster Mod - Looting NPCs & Creatures.esp  [Version 3.8b1]
24  Better Cities .esp
++  Better Cities - COBL.esp  [Version 5.4.1]
++  Mart's Monster Mod - RadiantAITweaks.esp
++  Real Lava v1.2.esp
25  ElzMoreVoice.esp
26  Francesco's Optional Chance of More Enemies.esp  [Version 5.0]
27  RealSleepExtended.esp  [Version 2.5]
++  Arena Agronak always aggressive.esp
28  Francesco's Creatures and Items Resources.esp  [Version 5.0]
29  Idle Dialogue.esp  [Version 1.3]
++  Mart's Monster Mod - More Passive Wildlife.esp  [Version 3.8b1]
++  LustyArgonianMaidContinued.esp
++  Symphony of Violence.esp
++  Mart's Monster Mod - No Adventurers.esp  [Version 3.8b1]
2A  All Natural - MMM Patch.esp  [Version 1.3]
2B  RshAlchemy.esp
2C  Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp  [Version 1.35Beta]
2D  All Natural - Real Lights.esp  [Version 1.34]
2E  Better Cities Full.esp  [Version 5.4.1]
2F  xulRiverEthe.esp  [Version 1.0.2]
++  nu_dwarven_f_cuirass.esp
30  LOADING SCREENS.esp
31  RTFemaleReplacerV12.esp
32  xulTheEasternPeaks.esp  [Version 1.0]
33  xulCloudtopMountains.esp  [Version 1.0.3]
++  Skyrimized Waters HD - SI Addon.esp
**  StarX Vampire Deaths.esp
34  Streamline 3.1.esp
35  xulAncientYews.esp  [Version 1.4.4]
36  xulBravilBarrowfields.esp  [Version 1.3.4]
37  Better Dungeons.esp
38  FCOM_Convergence.esp  [Version 0.9.9Mb8b1]
++  FCOM_NoAdventurersInGates.esp  [Version 0.9.9]
39  Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Enemies.esp  [Version 5.0]
3A  OMOBS_SI.esp  [Version 2.0]
3B  Mart's Monster Mod - Mummies.esp
3C  Better Imperial City.esp  [Version 5.4.0]
3D  xulLushWoodlands.esp  [Version 1.3.2]
3E  xulCheydinhalFalls.esp  [Version 1.0.1]
3F  xulSilverfishRiverValley.esp  [Version 1.0.3]
40  ReclaimSancreTor.esp  [Version 1.0.5]
41  xulBlackwoodForest.esp  [Version 1.1.0]
42  xulBeachesOfCyrodiilLostCoast.esp  [Version 1.6.5]
43  xulColovianHighlands_EV.esp  [Version 1.2.2]
44  xulChorrolHinterland.esp  [Version 1.2.3]
45  xulArriusCreek.esp  [Version 1.1.4]
46  Roads of Cyrodiil.esp  [Version 1.0]
47  xulSnowdale.esp  [Version 1.0.5]
48  Oblivifall - Losing My Religion.esp  [Version 1.43]
49  xulAncientRedwoods.esp  [Version 1.6]
4A  xulJerallGlacier.esp  [Version 1.0.1]
4B  Sounds of Cyrodiil.esp  [Version 1.1]
4C  Oblivion WarCry EV.esp  [Version 1.09]
4D  Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse Creatures Expansion.esp  [Version 3.8b1]
4E  OMOBS Optional Combat Settings.esp  [Version 1.0]
4F  FCOM_WarCry.esp  [Version 0.9.9MB8b1]
50  xulEntiusGorge.esp  [Version 1.2.1]
51  HoarfrostCastle.esp
++  MaleBodyReplacerV5.esp
52  MTCExpandedVillages.esp
53  xulCliffsOfAnvil.esp  [Version 1.12]
54  VHBloodlines 1.2.esp  [Version 1.5.6]
55  NPC comlilationn.esp
++  FCOM_SpawnRatesSlightlyReduced.esp  [Version 0.9.9MB3]
56  Francesco's Optional Chance of Stronger Bosses.esp  [Version 5.0]
++  FCOM_Francescos.esp  [Version 0.9.9MB8b1]
++  FCOM_FrancescosItemsAddOn.esp  [Version 0.9.9MB8b1]
57  FCOM_FrancescosNamedBosses.esp  [Version 0.9.9MB8b1]
58  Oblivion_Character_Overhaul.esp  [Version 2.0]
59  HackdirtTheDeepOnes.esp
5A  DLCFrostcragReborn.esp  [Version 1.4.7]
5B  HeartOftheDead.esp  [Version 6.5]
5C  xulBrenaRiverRavine.esp  [Version 1.1.1]
5D  xulTheHeath.esp
5E  Origin of the Mages Guild.esp  [Version 7.3.1]
5F  StarX Vanilla Vampires Revised.esp  [Version 2.12]
60  All Natural.esp  [Version 1.34]
61  FrostcragRebornCobl.esp
62  FCOM_FriendlierFactions.esp  [Version 0.9.9]
63  The Lost Spires.esp
64  GlenvarCastle.esp
65  Weapon Expansion Pack for Oblivion Nthusiasts.esp  [Version 1.03]
66  xuldarkforest.esp  [Version 1.0.5]
67  Mart's Monster Mod - More Wilderness Life No Gates.esp  [Version 3.8b1]
++  Mart's Monster Mod - Shivering Isles.esp  [Version 3.8b1]
68  xulAspenWood.esp  [Version 1.0.2]
69  xulFallenleafEverglade.esp  [Version 1.3.1]
6A  xulRollingHills_EV_withoutWheat.esp  [Version 1.3.3]
6B  xulSkingradOutskirts.esp  [Version 1.0.2]
6C  Kragenir's Death Quest.esp  [Version 2.18]
6D  xulStendarrValley.esp  [Version 1.2.2]
6E  Knights - Revelation.esp
6F  Sounds of Cyrodil patches.esp
70  xulPantherRiver.esp
71  FF_Real_Thirst.esp
72  All Natural - SI.esp  [Version 1.34]
73  FF_Real_Thirst, Cobl.esp
74  RST+Cliffs of Anvil.esp  [Version 1.2]
75  Region Revive - Lake Rumare.esp
76  Oblivifall - Losing My Religion KOTN.esp  [Version 1.0]
77  Vampire Hunting - Order of the Virtuous Blood.esp
78  Francesco's Optional Leveled Guards.esp  [Version 5.0]
++  FCOM_Knights.esp  [Version 0.9.9MB8b1]
++  FCOM_BetterCities-Bravil.esp  [Version 5.4.1]
++  FCOM_DiverseGuardUnity.esp  [Version 0.9.9]
79  LetThePeopleDrink.esp  [Version 2.6]
7A  Cobl Si.esp  [Version 1.63]
7B  Mart's Monster Mod - Diverse WaterLife.esp  [Version 3.8b1]
7C  SupremeMagicka.esp  [Version 0.90b]
7D  BHC_Expanded.esp  [Version 1.2]
7E  Faregyl.esp  [Version 2.0.11]
7F  Better Benirus Manor.esp  [Version 4.72-Cobl-SI]
80  FCOM_Archery.esp  [Version 0.9.9]
++  Better Unique Items.esp
81  xulImperialIsle.esp  [Version 1.6.8]
82  Mages Guild Quests.esp
83  The Ayleid Steps.esp  [Version 3.6]
84  SM_EnchantStaff.esp  [Version 0.90]
85  MannimarcoRevisited.esp
86  DialogTweaks.esp  [Version 1.0]
87  Cobl Glue.esp  [Version 1.73]
88  Better Cities - OMG.esp
++  SM_COBL.esp  [Version 0.90]
++  SM_VanillaSpells.esp  [Version 0.90]
++  SM_Scrolls.esp  [Version 0.90]
++  SM_DLCSpellTome.esp  [Version 0.90]
++  SM_MMM.esp  [Version 0.90]
++  SM_NoSpellLights.esp  [Version 0.90]
++  SM_OOO.esp  [Version 0.90]
++  Daedric Lord-Classic Bound Armor.esp
89  SM_ShiveringIsles.esp  [Version 0.90]
8A  Valtierro_B1.esp
8B  Better Benirus Manor - AN Patch.esp  [Version 4.72-Natural]
8C  Better Abandoned House.esp  [Version 2.0]
8D  Bob's Armory Oblivion.esp
++  FCOM_BobsGuardUnity.esp  [Version 0.9.9]
8E  FCOM_BobsArmory.esp  [Version 0.9.9MB8b1]
8F  FCOM_RealSwords.esp  [Version 0.9.9MB8]
90  MannimarcoRevisitedOOO.esp  [Version 0.1]
91  Mart's Monster Mod - Extra Wounding.esp  [Version 3.8b1]
92  MTCVillages-LakeRumarePatch.esp
93  ImpeREAL Empire - Unique Forts.esp
94  ImpeREAL Empire - Unique Forts - OOO FCOM patch by Xtudo.esp
95  TheForgottenRealm.esp
96  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Barrowfields.esp  [Version 1.3]
97  Fighters Guild Quests.esp
98  StarX VVR_OOO_FCOM Patch.esp
++  Starx-OVB Patch.esp
99  VaultsofCyrodiilBC.esp  [Version 5.3.0]
9A  LGD's Arena Enhanced.esp
9B  Shadowcrest_Vineyard_COBL.esp
9C  Salmo the Baker, Cobl.esp  [Version 3.08]
9D  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Cheydinhal Falls.esp  [Version 1.4]
9E  ShadowfangKeep.esp
9F  GuildAdvancement.esp
A0  MTCExpandedVillages-UniqueLandscapes patch.esp  [Version 1.0]
A1  TalosBridgeGateHouse.esp
A2  personality_idles4.esp
A3  RegionReviveLakeRumare-ImperialIsle patch.esp  [Version 1.3.4]
A4  wb_TBG_RR-LR_UL-II_patch.esp
A5  HoarfrostCastle-LushWoodlands patch.esp
A6  thievery.esp
A7  HeartoftheDead-ArriusCreek patch.esp
A8  xulPatch_AY_AC.esp  [Version 1.1]
A9  Mart's Monster Mod - Hunting & Crafting.esp  [Version 3.7b7]
AA  Oblivifall - Losing My Religion BC Full.esp  [Version 1.0]
AB  Better Cities - All Natural.esp
AC  Oblivifall - Losing My Religion_HOTD_Patch.esp  [Version 1.0]
AD  Enhanced Economy.esp  [Version 5.4.3]
AE  Better Cities - VHBloodlines.esp
AF  RST+Cloudtop Mountains.esp  [Version 1.1]
B0  EM_RedRoseManor.esp  [Version 2.0]
B1  OOO-CliffsOfAnvil patch.esp  [Version 1.2]
B2  ROC+UL-II+LtPD Patch.esp  [Version 1.0]
B3  RTT.esp
B4  RTT-Weye Relocation Patch.esp  [Version 2.0.1]
B5  Unlikley Compilation + KDQ standalone.esp
B6  Better Benirus Manor - RL Patch.esp  [Version 4.72]
B7  KragenirsDeathQuest-UniqueLandscapes Merged patch.esp  [Version 2.0]
B8  SunderedKeep.esp
B9  ROC+Shadowcrest Vineyard Patch.esp  [Version 1.0]
BA  RST+Cheydinhal Falls.esp  [Version 1.1]
BB  FrostcragReborn-Snowdale patch.esp
BC  Skyrimized Water HD eng.esp  [Version 1.8.]
BD  Trade and Commerce.esp
BE  Arren.esp
BF  1em_Vilja.esp  [Version 4.04]
C0  FCOM_OMG.esp  [Version 0.9.9]
C1  PersuasionOverhaul.esp  [Version 1.43]
++  PersuasionOverhaul_OOO.esp  [Version 1.2]
++  PersuasionOverhaul_MMM.esp  [Version 1.2]
++  1em_Vilja_OCOV2_By_jet4571.esp
C2  Daedric Lord Armor.esp
C3  MTCVillages-FaregylPatch.esp
C4  Woodcutters_Cabin_COBL.esp
C5  RomancingAhnassi.esp
C6  ImpeREAL Forts + Lost Spires + Silverfish River Patch.esp  [Version 1.0]
C7  PTMudwater.esp
C8  armors and clothes.esp
C9  Fighters Guild Scalemail Full.esp
CA  Trade and Commerce Update.esp  [Version 1.01]
CB  ROC+Ancient Redwoods.esp  [Version 1.0]
CC  TheElderCouncil_TempleOfTheOne.esp
CD  Kragenir'sDeathQuest-RSTpatch.esp  [Version 1.1]
CE  thievery - EE patch.esp  [Version 4.2]
CF  OOO-JerallGlacier patch.esp  [Version 1.0]
D0  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Imperial Isle.esp  [Version 5.3.0]
D1  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Chorrol Hinterland.esp  [Version 1.3]
D2  ImpeREAL Empire Unique Cities - Sutch.esp
D3  SM Plugin Refurbish(Merged).esp  [Version 1.30]
D4  ROC+UL Skingrad Outskirts Patch.esp
D5  Clamshell_Cottage_v1.5_COBL.esp
D6  CompanionFergus.esp  [Version 2.0]
D7  ElzMoreVoice - Original Voice Replacer.esp
D8  VampireCompanion.esp
D9  MTCEV-RoC Patch.esp
DA  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Skingrad Outskirts.esp  [Version 5.3.0]
DB  KORE- Blood Drinker Umbra.esp
DC  Real Hunger, Cobl.esp  [Version 1.6.1]
DD  Arren-EntiusGorge patch.esp
DE  Better Abandoned House - BC_OBC_UL Patch.esp  [Version 2.0]
DF  SecretOfTheGlyphs.esp  [Version 1.2]
E0  KragenirsDeathQuest-LetThePeopleDrink patch.esp
E1  MTCVillages-LostSpiresPatch.esp
E2  ROC+Romancing Ahnassi Patch.esp  [Version 1.0]
E3  OOO-Snowdale Patch.esp  [Version 1.1]
E4  ROC+RR Patch.esp  [Version 1.0]
E5  Better Cities - Thievery.esp
E6  Cheydinhal Land Texture Fix UL.esp  [Version 2.0]
E7  Companion Neeshka.esp
E8  ImpeREALForts+LostSpires Patch.esp  [Version 1.0.1]
E9  LostSpires-DarkForest patch.esp
EA  Andragorn_Weapons_Armors.esp
EB  Better Cities - Unique Landscape Panther River patch.esp  [Version 1.4]
EC  LostSpires-Everglade patch.esp
ED  Enhanced Grabbing.esp  [Version 0.5]
EE  ROC+Fighters Guild Quests.esp
EF  KragenirsDeathQuest-LostCoast patch.esp  [Version 1.1]
F0  Bashed Patch, 0.esp

 

Cant get Better cities full.esp and Better imperial cities.esp in the right spot

LOOT sorted the mods above, but all cities and imperial city have land tears and altered landmass

http://static-1.nexusmods.com/15/mods/101/images/16513-1-1289769826.jpg

 

Tried moving manualy and rebuilding bashed patch, but moving as far down to All natural.esp crashes game when loading

[DavidBudreck]

I have downloaded but not installed Better Cities, so I can't help with the specifics.

 

However, I know from experience that you will probably never solve all land tear issues.

 

That is why there is a mod called "Land Magic" which creates a plugin that attempts to fix land tears. This is what I would recommend.

[Executor64]

thank you for the info, i will try that out.

For the record though, i have created a better city game on previous pc with zero land tears

it was beautiful snif :,(

the fault always lies in some tiny changes to the city streets by other mods, which i have solved in the past by lowering better cities esp in load order,

something i cannot do now because after certan point down the load order the game crashes after loading game. Must be the massive quest mods but no way to be sure

[thereallgr]

LOOT is not a tool for a perfect load order it's only a tool helping you sorting the stuff in way so your game will start up.

 

Back to the BC problem...

What does BC do? - It reworks the city worldspaces, thus should be loaded last; or more precise after any mod that alters city worldspaces, to let the bigger mod take care of stuff like pathgrids, house placement,...

So why the crash? - Probably one of the mods which also relies on a certan record in a city gets the wrong data...

 

But in your case it's more likely you are moving your BC files past a (file that requires it as) required master which usually is indicated by a crash on startup.

 

Only way to fix it one and for all:

Deactivate everything and activate file by file, start and play for a while with a test character; the moment you experience a crash remove the mod you need less; the moment you experience a conflict not fixable by a patch remove the mod you need less. Sounds hard but usually it's only around 10 mods that are going to be removed in ths process. Having 200+ mods active conflict free takes a long time...

 

If I were in your place I would start building the game up from a fresh install; start with the neccessary mods and work my way up mod per mod and hevy testing inbetween each new file.

[Executor64]

was avoiding that particular method of unplugging one by one

also,

start building the game up from a fresh install

it IS a game built from a fresh install (on my new pc), its a fresh install of my regular mods + oco2 and some quest mods i hadn't had the time to play before.

also, im having doubts about the new dungeon mods, adense epic dungeon, sundered keep and forgotten realm... not a single UL orBC patch on their nexus pages smells of conflicts

[thereallgr]

was avoiding that particular method of unplugging one by one

 

You know - or at least supect some mods to be the cause and do not want to properly troubleshoot them?

 

Sorting those conflicts out would not only help you getting rid of the landscape tears, but you also could post the conlicts to the mod author(s) to fix them and spare other users this part of the work. So I really would advise you to only activate the mods you suspect - Better Cities and the three dungeon mods - see if there are any tears and bugs left - if yes, post this issue together with a screenshot in the corresponding file thread. Maybe the author - or someone specialized on patches (mhahn123, Vorians, me) will take care of it IF there is a proper description of the conflict, not a mere "I got a problem somewhere in my 240 mods long load order".

 

Don't get me wrong, I usually want to help other people and in this case I'm trying to help you, but I won't go and download all of your mods to see if I can reproduce the bug. I do not only lack the time to do so, but also lack the will.

 

On a look at the dungeon mods I'd point out the following lines in the descriptions:

 

Forgotten Realm:

This mod could conflict with any other mod that makes changes to the area around

Leyawiin and Blackwood Forest. (BC -Leyawiin Conflict?)

 

Sundered Keep:

Got quite some shots of a devastated IC; so there could (depending on how you reach those worldspaces) be quite some conflicts.

 

The Epic Dungeon is positioned somewhere beneath a forest, so apart from the entry area there shouldn't be a problem with the landscape.

 

 

In this thread a screenshot and a description where exactly the issues appear (apart from the market district pic - or are there only issues in the market district?) would also help people trying to help you. Maybe it's a space/tear someone recognises and points you towards the mod...

 

the fault always lies in some tiny changes to the city streets by other mods, which i have solved in the past by lowering better cities esp in load order,

something i cannot do now because after certan point down the load order the game crashes after loading game. Must be the massive quest mods but no way to be sure

 

There would be a way to be shure you know...just saying.

Are you using wrye bash? If yes, it would show what file is missing it's master if you move Better Cities too low.

Edited November 4, 2014 by KadVenku

[Executor64]

yes i read mod descriptions

 

I am not asking for someone to replicate the issue or anything,

I have made Better Cities work with all these mods in the past

(just tested the old mods list from previous pc and they do not work on this new install)

 

I have no issues in the game apart from city interior cells having altered ground as i mentioned before, no other issues...

thank you for your interest in the matter

[thereallgr]

Sorry if it sounded that way, it was not meant in a read-the-f**king-manual way; It was more like "Yes you're probably right with those mods causing the issues, as they seem to do this and that".

 

 

Then it's like I've already suspected, some mod relies on a certain data. You probably installed your new setup in a different order than your old one.

Thus one mod does not find it's stuff (maybe the stuff is doubled in a .bsa which can cause crashes with certain archive invalidation methods) that's also (probably) the reason why you can't move the BC plugin lower than a certain point though I don't see a file that obviously screams "I rely on better imperial City to be loaded beforehand".

 

Are you using nexus mod manager or oblivion mod manager?

Edit:

Another idea:

try the seperate IC plugins and only move the market district plugin down, maybe that's woking.

Edited November 5, 2014 by KadVenku

[Executor64]

Yes i understand what you are saying, and i think so as well, but so far it is a slow process of putting all the pieces in the right place

 

I use both mod managers, OMM for maybe 2-3 mods, NMM for archiving and categorizing mods and for "drop in data folder" mods, and the rest are Bash installers

 

I must see about that separate better cities, if it doesn't tear down too many patches

Edited November 6, 2014 by Executor64

[thereallgr]

In theory all BC patches ar made in a way that they work with both Imperial City versions so official ones should work. (You only need the seperate IC plugins... not that you got me wrong there)

 

Have you tried BOSSing your load order? Because as I already said LOOT only makes your game start, no matter what conflicts it creates itself. BOSS is still better at sorting oblivion stuff, cause it's using a certain guideline I also use when sorting my mods by hand (Actually I'm using LOOT, but I'm tricking it via the options it gives you to priorize the plugins):

From the Nexus Wiki

• Oblivion.esm - this MUST be the first thing in the list.
• All other .esm files All .esm files MUST be before any .esp files.
• Unofficial Oblivion Patch
• Shivering Isles.esp
• Unofficial Shivering Isles patch
• Weather/Environment/Sound Mods
• Minor Mods/New Items/Houses/DLC's (Post-Completion)
• Note: any DLC patch should go directly after the DLC it changes, no matter where the DLC is located
• Major Overhaul Mods (FCOM, OOO, MMM etc)
• Any compatibility patches for the major overhaul mods
• Mods that specifically conflict with overhauls and need to take precedence
• DLC's (Pre-Completion)
• Quests (these can be moved up after completion of the quest)
• Compatibility Patches/UOMP/Merged Leveled Lists
• Special handling mods - Streamline, Deadly Reflex etc.
• Bashed patch (if bash is used)

 

With LOOT on the other hand you have a pretty powerful tool to manipulate and save your load order. Something you don't have with BOSS.

 

Some other suggestion: Have you ever tried Mod Organizer? I'm using it for Oblivion and it made my life way easier especially those troubleshooting issues are less a pain.