Crossbows Please!

[danscott84]

Being an actual bowhunter I thought I might weigh in on this. Bows being tied to dexterity has not made sense to me at all. It takes a lot of arm and shoulder strength to pull back a long bow, recurve, and today even a compound bow. Long bows have no "led-off" meaning a 120 lb long bow has the same pull all the way back to the full pull. Plus holding that position is taxing and your arms begins to shake almost immediately. Recurves allow for some led-off by reducing the poundage needed to pull back and yet deliver the same force to the arrow. (65 lb bow can deliver the same force as 120 lb long bow, but suffers from reduced range) My modern compound bow is set at 80 lbs, and is adjustable because of the wheels/pulleys. It has a led-off of 15% meaning I pull back 80 lbs to about my mid forearm, then it becomes an easy pull back to a full pull and requires less strength to hold it while the deer moves into a better shot. Crossbows are similar to compound bows in that the wheels/pulleys hold the poundage instead of the arm, but offer less accuracy due the lack of flex in the bolt compared to the arrow. Range is increased, but accuracy diminishes. (There are slow motion hunting vids that demonstrate this) Crossbows were developed for shorter range use by more heavily armored soldiers in battle because of the lack of range of motion provided by wearing more front-line armor. It was not due to strength or dexterity of the soldier themselves, but the armor they wore. (Try pulling even a compound bow while simply wearing two heavy coats, and this will give you a similar modern day restriiction)

[Thandal]

... My modern compound bow is set at 80 lbs, and is adjustable because of the wheels/pulleys. It has a led-off of 15% meaning I pull back 80 lbs to about my mid forearm, then it becomes an easy pull back to a full pull and requires less strength to hold it...

@DanScott; Thanks for the technical clarifications. It's been a loooong time since I was in archery class with my sons. When we lived in San Francisco we used to go down to the butts in Golden Gate Park for practice, but never got interested enough to buy own own bows.

 

So I stick with my observations:

 

1. All bows should do more Damage. (This was my original reason for chiming in!)

2. All bows should have their To-Hit (but NOT Damage) modified by Dex. (Aiming skills)

3. Long bow To-Hit (due to need to hold draw while aiming) AND Damage (due to need to draw in the first place) should include a Str modifier.

4. Crossbow Rate-of-Fire should include a Str (or possibly Dex, if using mechanisms) modifier.

[danscott84]

Thandal, I think those would be right on, plus a modifier on the type of armor worn. I know that the heavy and massive armors do have limits, but the master archer changes for the heavy which I take advantage of in the game, but it's not realistic. And on a side note, I would rather be shot be a gun than an arrow. Bullets usually go through, but arrows do not and with every movement that tip keeps cutting causing more damage. The damage should be greater, and even more so if the hit is in the torso. FPS games have that modifier in them, but not real sure where to begin for placing it in this type of game.

[solraven]

And on a side note, I would rather be shot be a gun than an arrow. Bullets usually go through, but arrows do not and with every movement that tip keeps cutting causing more damage.

when a bullet goes through you it travels with such velocity that the shockwave can actually turn surrounding tissue into something resembling jello after being put through a blender. we sometimes shoot full soup cans at my friends ranch and if you shoot them mid can you would be lucky to have anything connecting the lids together. its so much fun watching them explode!

[danscott84]

And on a side note, I would rather be shot be a gun than an arrow. Bullets usually go through, but arrows do not and with every movement that tip keeps cutting causing more damage.

when a bullet goes through you it travels with such velocity that the shockwave can actually turn surrounding tissue into something resembling jello after being put through a blender. we sometimes shoot full soup cans at my friends ranch and if you shoot them mid can you would be lucky to have anything connecting the lids together. its so much fun watching them explode!

 

I hunt with both guns and bows. Animals are more likely to survive from a poorly placed gun shot than a poorly placed bow shot. Yes, bullets cause shock, and that is how they kill, and arrows cause hemmoraging, and they keep cutting with every movement. Essentially, a gun wound will heal, but an arrow wound will not until it is removed.

[monkybuttface]

How about a musket in DA? A rare legendary item? And as for better LOOKING crossbows, how about something like the dwarven crossbow from Morrowind?

[LancelotLoire]

danscott is rather correct in what he says. Also adding onto that the arrows of the time period from this were typically barbed or had a true arrow head unlike more modern arrows that just have a 'point'. This means that not only does it get lodged inside and cause damage but to even remove it would cause massive amounts of damage either way. Since those arrowheads don't just sit perfectly lined up with the holes. As for shooting a sealed can (Whether it be a soda, paint, soup or anything that has a seal) that is a completely different thing. That's more to do with the explosive force of the shots kinetic energy mixing with the sealed can's contents. As it hits with such a force and so fast it causes the contents to need to leave. And so the contents using the explosive kinetic energy forces the cans sides to burst back at a rapid speed. Sort of like how when a plane will explosively depressurize in a way. Although this is a far fetched theory since you can depressurize one of these from the outside. The contents wants to escape in the fastest way possible and so it ends up enlarging the hole.

[Ossir]

I have an odd thought on the realism front. I don't claim to be an expert though I have shot a bow a few dozen times. Do you, when shooting a bow, ever draw it to less than full draw? If not, surely once you have the strength required to draw the bow fully, the damage cannot scale further because it will always be at full draw, never more, never less. Hence a bow should have a Strength equip requirement but no damage scaling.

 

as for dex based damage scaling, my argument has always been accuracy beyond the simple "hit or miss" check. Dex already adds to attack which makes you more likely to hit in the first place, but I imagine a hit in the biceps will not do anywhere near as much damage as a direct torso shot. I see dex based damage scaling as the ability of the shooter to RELIABLY hit vital areas at a good angle to make the most of the kinetic energy of each shot. It is stretching reality a little, but after all it is a fantasy game.

 

But from a gameplay perspective, I cannot accept a weapon whose damage does not scale with player attributes. The implications are that it will either be way too powerful at early game, or far too weak at late game, both of which are unacceptable. I think a bit of realism stretching is required to make for a smooth gameplay progression.

[Thandal]

... But from a gameplay perspective, I cannot accept a weapon whose damage does not scale with player attributes. The implications are that it will either be way too powerful at early game, or far too weak at late game, both of which are unacceptable. I think a bit of realism stretching is required to make for a smooth gameplay progression.

While agreed that we can't have a weapon CLASS that doesn't allow for greater effects as the game/PC progresses, we could still keep the realism with bows by raising the min. requirements to use certain ones. The better equipment doing more Damage, having a higher Crit prob., whatever. But you have to acquire the skills/attributes to use it.

 

This is already implmented to a certain degree in DA, but could really be made to matter by having SIGNIFICANT improvements in capabilites, maybe coupled with greater intervals needed in abilities before being able to make use of the next higher tier.

[Ossir]

In my meddling with modding I did notice that it is possible to set specific talent groups as weapon equip restrictions. I wonder if this is detailed enough to say, make a really powerful bow open only to those who learned Master Archer, or something like that.