Is America becoming Socialist ?

[Burnagirl]

Firstly, Aurielius, my "right to life" simply means that if you are paying taxes then the government should at very least reciprocate by "taking care of you" - this ensures that you continue to be a tax payer because you are alive to do so

by their providing health care and because you have been working "all your life" and been paying taxes they should take care of you as you now perhaps retire and leave the work place.

It's a case of one hand washes the other.

I understand your statement - ... that you will be "... provided with the freedom to make your own way but are not required to buy the ticket to your destination", but dont you feel that as a tax payer you have the right to expect something

in return at the very least ?

 

Secondly, Grannywils - I did begin to read the thread on the "Coffe Party" but have not gone very far with it ... I will take the time to do so.

As far as the current economic crisis is concerned, I quote (Wikipedia is my source):

 

The financial crisis of 2007 to the present is a crisis triggered by a liquidity shortfall in the United States banking system caused by the overvaluation of assets.[1] It has resulted in the collapse of large financial institutions, the bailout of banks by national governments and downturns in stock markets around the world. In many areas, the housing market has also suffered, resulting in numerous evictions, foreclosures and prolonged vacancies. It is considered by many economists to be the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression of the 1930s.[2] It contributed to the failure of key businesses, declines in consumer wealth estimated in the trillions of U.S. dollars, substantial financial commitments incurred by governments, and a significant decline in economic activity.[3] Many causes have been suggested, with varying weight assigned by experts.[4] Both market-based and regulatory solutions have been implemented or are under consideration,[5] while significant risks remain for the world economy over the 2010–2011 periods.[6]

 

The collapse of a global housing bubble, which peaked in the U.S. in 2006, caused the values of securities tied to real estate pricing to plummet thereafter, damaging financial institutions globally.[7] Questions regarding bank solvency, declines in credit availability, and damaged investor confidence had an impact on global stock markets, where securities suffered large losses during late 2008 and early 2009. Economies worldwide slowed during this period as credit tightened and international trade declined.[8] Critics argued that credit rating agencies and investors failed to accurately price the risk involved with mortgage-related financial products, and that governments did not adjust their regulatory practices to address 21st century financial markets.[9] Governments and central banks responded with unprecedented fiscal stimulus, monetary policy expansion, and institutional bailouts

As far as the Wall street people being President Obamas friends are concerned, I quote:

 

By Allen L. Roland — I’ve always believed that satire or parody is sometimes the best medium to illuminate the truth and Obama’s current finance reform package begs for a ride on that wagon : Allen L Roland

The House and Senate are expected to vote on the final sleight of hand version of the highly suspect “financial reform” bill ( HR 4173 ) this week ~ which is really a victory for Wall Street who obviously have powerful friends in both houses of Congress as well as a friend at the White House. For example, top US banks could be given until 2022 to comply with the so-called Volcker rule, which is supposed to restrict financial institutions’ riskier trading activities.

 

Thanks for making me work for my answers, it has helped me better understand the issues your nation is currently facing.

 

 

EDIT : I almost forgot - the headline to the above comment by Allen L. Roland was as follows:

 

 

Wall Street To Obama: Good Work, Buddy!

[Surenas]

Balagor, instead of daily knækbrød met buko friskost we have to eat more junk food to understand that we here in Western Europe host socialism or somethin'... :woot:

 

 

Take your protein pills, boys

http://www.abload.de/img/anne9hol.gif

[Balagor]

Balagor, instead of daily knækbrød met buko friskost we have to eat more junk food to understand that we here in Western Europe host socialism or somethin'... :woot:

 

 

Take your protein pills, boys

http://www.abload.de/img/anne9hol.gif

 

We have western junkfood as well. As a kweker I go to NL very often to by plants. The NL social system works fine, as far as I can see. Even in the "Coffie shops".

[species5478]

I think it's worth mentioning, (although it has been already) that the world economy didn't collapse because we live in a socialist society. It nearly collapsed because we live in a capitalist society. The likes of which, were instigated by individuals such as Bush, not Obama. Who, by that way, is now imposing new laws against Wall Street and banks, which might help regulate the Market.

 

And we are not animals. Every person should have bare minimums. A home, food, and healthcare should be mandatory.

 

If people want to sit on their butts and rot, let them. Others who want more out of life, can move on to be the doctors, or engineers, etc. Work hard…and get the fancy car, or nice house, or whatever. I think the only reason some people don't really want to consider options like this, is because we all have a selfish, arrogant inner self that wants to feel better than someone else. Usually, that means taking advantage of another person.

 

Maybe it's just me. But living life for the purpose of achieving things, or status, seems primitive.

 

I know we like to think of ourselves as independent, but in reality, we are not. Our society only exists in part, because we help one another through tax payer money. If your house is burning, are you going to put the flames out yourself? No. You're going to call the Fire Department. If someone is trying to assault you, there's the Police Department. Foreign invaders? Call the Marines. Going to the park? Museums? Library? Festivals? Fairs? Need someone to pick up your trash? Do you travel on roads? Highways? Do you like manicured streets? Do you like stoplights? What about prosecuting and incarcerating prisoners? Lifeguards when you go to the beach? Bridges? Etc, etc…if you like or enjoy these things, then you like certain forms of socialism.

[Balagor]

I think it's worth mentioning, (although it has been already) that the world economy didn't collapse because we live in a socialist society. It nearly collapsed because we live in a capitalist society. The likes of which, were instigated by individuals such as Bush, not Obama. Who, by that way, is now imposing new laws against Wall Street and banks, which might help regulate the Market.

 

And we are not animals. Every person should have bare minimums. A home, food, and healthcare should be mandatory.

 

If people want to sit on their butts and rot, let them. Others who want more out of life, can move on to be the doctors, or engineers, etc. Work hard…and get the fancy car, or nice house, or whatever. I think the only reason some people don't really want to consider options like this, is because we all have a selfish, arrogant inner self that wants to feel better than someone else. Usually, that means taking advantage of another person.

 

Maybe it's just me. But living life for the purpose of achieving things, or status, seems primitive.

 

I know we like to think of ourselves as independent, but in reality, we are not. Our society only exists in part, because we help one another through tax payer money. If your house is burning, are you going to put the flames out yourself? No. You're going to call the Fire Department. If someone is trying to assault you, there's the Police Department. Foreign invaders? Call the Marines. Going to the park? Museums? Library? Festivals? Fairs? Need someone to pick up your trash? Do you travel on roads? Highways? Do you like manicured streets? Do you like stoplights? What about prosecuting and incarcerating prisoners? Lifeguards when you to the beach? Bridges? Etc, etc…if you like or enjoy these things, then you like certain forms of socialism.

 

It´s nice to hear you still got your wit, and your unselfish caring, sp 5478. That`s exactly how we have had it with our social form, and guess what; it does`nt even hurt.

[species5478]

I think it's worth mentioning, (although it has been already) that the world economy didn't collapse because we live in a socialist society. It nearly collapsed because we live in a capitalist society. The likes of which, were instigated by individuals such as Bush, not Obama. Who, by that way, is now imposing new laws against Wall Street and banks, which might help regulate the Market.

 

And we are not animals. Every person should have bare minimums. A home, food, and healthcare should be mandatory.

 

If people want to sit on their butts and rot, let them. Others who want more out of life, can move on to be the doctors, or engineers, etc. Work hard…and get the fancy car, or nice house, or whatever. I think the only reason some people don't really want to consider options like this, is because we all have a selfish, arrogant inner self that wants to feel better than someone else. Usually, that means taking advantage of another person.

 

Maybe it's just me. But living life for the purpose of achieving things, or status, seems primitive.

 

I know we like to think of ourselves as independent, but in reality, we are not. Our society only exists in part, because we help one another through tax payer money. If your house is burning, are you going to put the flames out yourself? No. You're going to call the Fire Department. If someone is trying to assault you, there's the Police Department. Foreign invaders? Call the Marines. Going to the park? Museums? Library? Festivals? Fairs? Need someone to pick up your trash? Do you travel on roads? Highways? Do you like manicured streets? Do you like stoplights? What about prosecuting and incarcerating prisoners? Lifeguards when you go to the beach? Bridges? Etc, etc…if you like or enjoy these things, then you like certain forms of socialism.

 

It´s nice to hear you still got your wit, and your unselfish caring, sp 5478. That`s exactly how we have had it with our social form, and guess what; it does`nt even hurt.

 

It's good to see you're still exercising the mind too. I've read a lot of your posts on other debates, but only felt I had a valid opinion in this one. I truly believe the cause of many problems that we have, is from the unbalanced societies all across the world. There's no reason to let people starve to death, for instance. It's a shame we all bare. But I do think each society has a piece of the puzzle, because we all do something right, and something wrong.

[Aurielius]

Firstly, Aurielius, my "right to life" simply means that if you are paying taxes then the government should at very least reciprocate by "taking care of you" - this ensures that you continue to be a tax payer because you are alive to do so

by their providing health care and because you have been working "all your life" and been paying taxes they should take care of you as you now perhaps retire and leave the work place.

It's a case of one hand washes the other.

I understand your statement - ... that you will be "... provided with the freedom to make your own way but are not required to buy the ticket to your destination", but dont you feel that as a tax payer you have the right to expect something

in return at the very least ?

If this reciprocal arrangement was confined to those of us that pay taxes it might be considered a quid pro quo arrangement, but it will not. The middle class again will be asked to support the lack of economic foresight of another government program, US governmental agencies do not shrink or die once brought into existence. We are still paying Beekeeper subsidies from WW2 (bee's wax was used in airman's oxygen masks).

I am perfectly capable of taking care of my own without asking the government to intercede on my behalf. I expect the government to protect me, establish equitable treatment under the law and provide me with the opportunity to compete and to stay the hell out of my pocket when I succeed.

 

"The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself."

~Benjamin Franklin

[grannywils]

Firstly, Aurielius, my "right to life" simply means that if you are paying taxes then the government should at very least reciprocate by "taking care of you" - this ensures that you continue to be a tax payer because you are alive to do so

by their providing health care and because you have been working "all your life" and been paying taxes they should take care of you as you now perhaps retire and leave the work place.

It's a case of one hand washes the other.

I understand your statement - ... that you will be "... provided with the freedom to make your own way but are not required to buy the ticket to your destination", but dont you feel that as a tax payer you have the right to expect something

in return at the very least ?

 

Secondly, Grannywils - I did begin to read the thread on the "Coffe Party" but have not gone very far with it ... I will take the time to do so.

As far as the current economic crisis is concerned, I quote (Wikipedia is my source):

 

The financial crisis of 2007 to the present is a crisis triggered by a liquidity shortfall in the United States banking system caused by the overvaluation of assets.[1] It has resulted in the collapse of large financial institutions, the bailout of banks by national governments and downturns in stock markets around the world. In many areas, the housing market has also suffered, resulting in numerous evictions, foreclosures and prolonged vacancies. It is considered by many economists to be the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression of the 1930s.[2] It contributed to the failure of key businesses, declines in consumer wealth estimated in the trillions of U.S. dollars, substantial financial commitments incurred by governments, and a significant decline in economic activity.[3] Many causes have been suggested, with varying weight assigned by experts.[4] Both market-based and regulatory solutions have been implemented or are under consideration,[5] while significant risks remain for the world economy over the 2010–2011 periods.[6]

 

The collapse of a global housing bubble, which peaked in the U.S. in 2006, caused the values of securities tied to real estate pricing to plummet thereafter, damaging financial institutions globally.[7] Questions regarding bank solvency, declines in credit availability, and damaged investor confidence had an impact on global stock markets, where securities suffered large losses during late 2008 and early 2009. Economies worldwide slowed during this period as credit tightened and international trade declined.[8] Critics argued that credit rating agencies and investors failed to accurately price the risk involved with mortgage-related financial products, and that governments did not adjust their regulatory practices to address 21st century financial markets.[9] Governments and central banks responded with unprecedented fiscal stimulus, monetary policy expansion, and institutional bailouts

As far as the Wall street people being President Obamas friends are concerned, I quote:

 

By Allen L. Roland — I’ve always believed that satire or parody is sometimes the best medium to illuminate the truth and Obama’s current finance reform package begs for a ride on that wagon : Allen L Roland

The House and Senate are expected to vote on the final sleight of hand version of the highly suspect “financial reform” bill ( HR 4173 ) this week ~ which is really a victory for Wall Street who obviously have powerful friends in both houses of Congress as well as a friend at the White House. For example, top US banks could be given until 2022 to comply with the so-called Volcker rule, which is supposed to restrict financial institutions’ riskier trading activities.

 

Thanks for making me work for my answers, it has helped me better understand the issues your nation is currently facing.

 

 

EDIT : I almost forgot - the headline to the above comment by Allen L. Roland was as follows:

 

 

Wall Street To Obama: Good Work, Buddy!

 

Burnagirl: First of all, let me thank you for that homework you did. It gave me a much better perspective on you and where you were coming from. I'd just like to say one thing about that first article you quoted from Wikipedia, I think it is somewhat of an oversimplification when it blames the crisis simple on U.S. banks. The actual culprits were traders (primarily banks) of derivatives all over the world who were basically gambling on the strength or weakness of a loan. These derivitives were constructed somewhat in the form of an insurance policy where all premiums were paid up front, and whether or not the loan matured determined which party "won", i.e. got the money and which party "lost". i.e. didn't.

 

These were sold over the counter, outside of the stock exchange, with NO regulations whatsoever as to fitness, and no due diligence., What basically happened is that too many of these derivitives went bad; and no one knew this segment of the market (even existed in many cases and) was so insolvent until Lehman Bros. went belly up. Then it was like dominoes. These worthless pieces of paper had to be reckoned with, and the banks holding them had to show assets to to cover them.

This lack of assets is what scared the crap out of the banks and was the reason that Secretary Paulson's request to Congress for $7 billion was only 4 pages long. He could not tell the truth without becoming a party to the wrong doing by the banks. You can Google derivatives and bailout to get more information.

 

I know I'm going on too long, but just one more thing, I have a number to toss out; $68 trillion dollars. There are still trillions of dollars of worthless derivatives out there on banks balance sheets, and the banks are still scrambling to come up with assets to cover these losses. That's why no one can get a loan. The banks need the money to prop up their balance sheets. If Mr. Obama seems to be a friend to Wall Street, he may just be attempting to salvage the true ruination of this global economy.

 

I apologize to everyong for going on about this, but it is a pet peeve of mine and a subject that unnerves me when I think of the near catastrophe we faced and still face.

 

 

[Surenas]

Happy the one that doesn't live in the asocial 18th century anymore. Somewhere the Mercedes Benz second car has to come from, finally. From socialism for sure not, and not from the lack of a social net that obviously makes the workers (we say: employees) less aggressive, less correspondent to all radical theories at the border to no-good like "class war"... and second car burning, of course *lol*

Remarkably enough, both US and Europeans share one and the same philosophical theorem, it's the known "Leave No Man Behind". Unfortunately the US understand it as an exclusive reference to the military, but the Europeans as "everyone". So folk, if the European social net is to be called socialistic, how then do we call the US Army if not communistic, okay?

[ginnyfizz]

 

If people want to sit on their butts and rot, let them

 

You have got to be joking. I must be wasting my time getting in my ten year old Hyundai and driving every morning to my job trying to persuade the long term unemployed to get off their asses and get a job. So you think it's OK for people to draw unemployment benefits and let the poor saps known as the taxpayer, those villainous middle classes, foot the bill? Once more, the idea of universal welfare and health care sounds very good, it is an ideal, but in Britain it spiralled out of control and now we are bust. Socialism, which Obama is moving too, has that effect.

 

No-one denies that the reckless actions of the banks were utterly reprehensible and responsible for massive financial crisis. But deep as that bit, it has been pulled up short because Governments acted, and certainly in the UK the taxpayer has a stake in the banks and will be getting their money back eventually. But with health care and welfare, that problem has been an ongoing one that has been allowed to get out of control, because no-one has dared to tackle it. Indeed, the previous Socialist government here pumped billions into health and welfare to keep their client voters and trade union paymasters happy. Hence we are BUST.

 

That is what I would hate to see happen in the USA. Fortunately, if Obama gets a thrashing in the mid-terms, America may avoid becoming Socialist.