What are we all afraid of?

[TheCalliton]

V-dude, "what motivates men to slay the enemy is anger" many people say that money, or greed, is the root of all evil. It is not greed, but the hate that spawns from people's greed. When we begin to hate, we begin to fear that what we hate is our enemy. Therefore if we go for too much, we will hate, then we will fear... then remorse will follow... this is the path to the dark side of the force :P

 

 

if you are talking about fear not preceded by hate, but begun by the unknown, that is a very foolish feeling. Though mankind naturally fears the unknown, we should embrace it. Lets take for example... me! I go to a christian school, not gonna lie, but i hate it there. They stand for nonsecular crap, no tattoos, no piercings (wanna get a couple) and short hair on guys... i am a metal head, i am getting a tattoo next month, and i got long hair. They fear these things because they are different. I knew a guy covered in tattoos and piercings, and we was the nicest guy you would EVER meet! Look at me, i may have some anger issues (brought on by others) but im a nice enough guy!

 

So fear should not be the enemy, but the gateway to the unknown. Like the gateway to hell in Dante's Inferno (NOT THE GAME) it leads to the unknown, but the gate itself is feared. Except n the inferno, it was pretty freaky

[ginnyfizz]

Vicoria Veritas, Victoria Fidelus. "victory above truth, victory above loyalty"

 

Personaly, I think that in this day and age we're starting to forget why even have disaster and need charities.

 

You think hatred can overwhelm and destroy? just try compassion, that's a thousand times more destructive when you let it overwhelm you. You'd give away everything you had and only make some weak drudge a target by doing so.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that we need balance.

 

Those who advocate hatred, anger, and the boliteration of difernece, are fools, they're dead fools too, because one of those days, the diferent will become sick of being hunted...

 

Those who advocate peace, love, and compassion are fools. And dead fools, since one day, one of those helpless wretches is going to realise he can get two cups of rice, not one, by raiding MSF supply depots.

 

Those however, who actualy allow themselves to lead a balanced life, may actualy live to see middle age, god forbid, maybe even retirement. Life without hatred denies you determination, agression, and righteous rage-all vital in one wya or another, if you go the other way, you become a helpless target, you're final words will likely be "you can shoot me, just dont do it hatin' "

 

Balance in the only form of "wisdom" that exists. Letting yourself experience the full range of emotions is critical if you dont want to get carried away and driven mad by one single one.

 

And an important footnote. Hatred is something not everyone understands. Hatred is the very embodyment of anger, fury, and the lust to get even, to destroy. And it's enormously useful if you can control it. If you can control it, it'll give you nearly endless courage and determination. If you cant, it'll drive you insane and you'll probably end up badly injuring someone or yourself. It's not some vague concept of wanting to obliterate a group, that's somethign entirely diferent, focused hate is an enormously powerful tool for those with the bravery and self fcontrol to use it.

 

Well, Vindekarr, I have already lived to middle age, nearly fifty in fact, despite being a compassionate person whose tenets teach me to try and purge my soul of hate, so that shoots your argument right down in flames. And if you think because of that that I and people like me lack in any kind of determination, aggression and righteous rage, either try asking anyone who has really knows me and who has seen me on the rampage about a cause I believe in, or take a history lesson. Much of the social reforming of the 18th, 19th and 20th century, I cite for example prison reform in the UK...Elizabeth Fry, anyone? was driven by the righteous indignation of compassionate and peace loving people. That's the mistake you make - you confuse righteous anger and indignation with hatred, and they are just different animals.

 

Do not presume to disrespect people because they have compassion and gentleness, or to suggest that they lack courage. The quality of mercy, as the Bard put it, and a sense of righteous indignation, are not mutually exclusive. Both of my Grandfathers managed to fight for King and Country despite being men of great compassion. They volunteered and didn't wait to be conscripted, because they wanted to defend right and justice, and one of them lost his life doing so, as did two of his sons.

 

I most certainly would object to anyone calling Dr Martin Luther King or Mohandas Kharamchand Gandhi fools - they advocated peaceful protest and love of ones fellow man. And died for their beliefs.

 

AND I still believe that fear is a natural part of the human condition. Some are better at overcoming it than others. At times it may be either played upon and exploited by the unprincipled or influenced by social pressures. But it would be a mistake to assume that it cannot also go alongside great courage.

[grannywils]

Ginnyfizz I'm with you again on this one. Vindekarr, you seem to frequently confuse anger and hatred. I must hasten to disagree with you if you think that they are one and the same thing.

 

I totally believe that we all must have an outlet for expressing our anger. But unless I am misunderstanding you, you seem to believe that all anger is really hatred turned inside out. That is poppycock. I am no pollyanna who says we must all love one another in spite of our differences. I would like to be able to see that, yes. But what I said was we should all be able to treat each other with respect and dignity and not fear one another just because we are different.

 

There is so much more that I have to say on this subject, but I must leave for an appointment right now. I will leave the thread to others for the moment.

[Balagor]

Vicoria Veritas, Victoria Fidelus. "victory above truth, victory above loyalty"

 

>snip<

 

Those who advocate peace, love, and compassion are fools. And dead fools, since one day, one of those helpless wretches is going to realise he can get two cups of rice, not one, by raiding MSF supply depots.

 

Those however, who actualy allow themselves to lead a balanced life, may actualy live to see middle age, god forbid, maybe even retirement. Life without hatred denies you determination, agression, and righteous rage-all vital in one wya or another, if you go the other way, you become a helpless target, you're final words will likely be "you can shoot me, just dont do it hatin' "

 

 

I aint dead yet, nor did I fall for greed, anger or hatred, though I belong to a generation, the Hippies, who where like you describe. We lived, and still live, balanced, as you also describe. Could be that the world is not so black and white as you belive, or that balance is right in front of you when the fog from the hatred is not covering your eyes.

This whole topic started about what degree we were becoming alien to each other, due to prejustice and fear for each other.

As we all know, and well pointed out by @ Surenas hatred comes from fear of the unknown, and I would add that hatred also can arise from insecurety.

[Vindekarr]

It's beside the point anyway.

 

Look who won: one true Sith killed every single one of those wimpy peace lovers.

 

The jedi lost. In the end their numbers were reduced to one, pathologicaly annoying teenager with a lightsabre against the entire galactic empire. I so prenounce you analogy sunk.

 

Because what is all well and good for characters in science fiction from a previous century designed for young audiences, has no application to the real world.

 

Because the real world is a harsh and brutal place. Darwinian infact, and you need every strength available to you in order to survive.

[AliasTheory]

Because what is all well and good for characters in science fiction from a previous century designed for young audiences, has no application to the real world.

 

Because the real world is a harsh and brutal place. Darwinian infact, and you need every strength available to you in order to survive.

 

Don't wanna get too off topic...but that's a pretty bold statement. You might as well just say narratives in general.

 

What about Star Trek? McCoy is the emotional, more human opposite to Spock, who is the logical and scientific equal. Kirk succeeds because he has the best of both worlds, as he doesn't possess a polarized mentality. To me, that has a lot of application to the real world. The idea is that while hi-tech science stuff is super cool and awesome, the metaphor simply isn't needed.

 

And look at Star Wars and the two big factions: the empire and the rebels. Their concepts are based off of some familiar models from the real world, but light and dark...that isn't needed to understand what the story is trying to tell.

[Vindekarr]

It all comes down to the fact that the only form of wisdom is noncaring greyness.

 

If you're a stereotypical wannabe hero who runs around throwing food to the hungry and telling everyone that they should beleive in peace and love and save the environment and all that horsecrap, you're a deluded zealot.

 

If you're the sort of stereotypical wannabe hitler who runs around throwing rocks at perfectly normal people, you're a deluded zealot.

 

If you actualy smart enough to see the virtues of a full emotional range, you've got potential, not a lot, but some.

 

Because only an idiot denies themself a full existance.

 

Whether you've spent your life shoving poison gas down the throats of jews or rice down the throats of starving africans, you're still a zealot, and at the end of the day, both are as bad as eachother.

 

I could go on forever about how short sighted, immature, and downright arrogant it is to deny yourself any sort of emotion, but Im just going to put this here and leave: if you shut yourself off from any part of yourself, you''re damning yourself. You ma7y feel like a hero for putting aside what you see as destructive hate, you may see yourself as a hero for trying to shove happy love rhetoric down the throats of others, but at the rotting black heart of the matter, it's all just lies you tell so you can sleep at night.

 

Likewise those who set aside love damn themselves. Love has power-it's subtle, but generaly speaking the more subtle something is the more potent it is.

 

It doesnt really matter what you read into my statements about me, I take care of myself just fine on the balanced path. I hate my enemies, I love those who deserve my love, and my life is cynical but happy.

 

Balance is the only true path to happyness. One man's good is evil to another, in "selfless" service you simply serve one man's greed at another man's expense. Think carefully about your actions and how they will effect not only the direct target of those actions, but also who those actions will ripple out to.

 

Because if you go around the world shoving value into the hands of the poor, you'll feel like a bloody saint, but you'll be doing more harm in the long run than good if you dont think your actions through. Nothing occurs without cost, and the cost of shutting out ANY emotion can be your soul.

 

Be that hate or love you shut out, the removal of either is like the slow weakening of a key muscle. You'll not notice it, but it's there, it's sapping away your strength and capability and eventualy you'll become entirely incapable as a result.

 

MOD EDIT:

You may have a point that could be argued in a reasonable manner, but the extreme nature of your rhetoric is not likely to get that across. You could try to explain the reasoning behind your opinions, rather than simply stating them along with sensational hyperbole - otherwise this topic could easily devolve to the point where it will be locked, as grannywils correctly observes below.

 

-HugePinball (Moderator)

Edited October 17, 2010 by HugePinball

[Surenas]

Right, nothing else matters, Balagor.

[grannywils]

Surenas and Balagor, I think if you will both read my initial thread again you will find that you are both agreeing with what I said in the first place. We are afraid of the unknown, or what is different from ourselves.

 

Vindekarr, you have apparently not read anything that I have said. Or at least do not seem to be responding to anything that I have said. Nowhere do I suggest that we just throw money or food or goods and services to the poor or downtrodden, "just because we love them" and/or want to make ourselves feel better. You seem to be creating scenarios in your own mind determining what is in my mind. Please do not do that if you can avoid it.

 

I will once again repeat: What I believe we need to do is try to understand one another. Simple enough. We do not all have to love one another. We do not all have to sit around the campfire and sing Kurmbaya. We do need to know our enemy and be cautious. We do need to be aware. However, if we just run and hide or just hate without understanding, we might as well all just dig ourselves little individual bomb shelters and live in quiet desparation forever.

 

I personally, try to initially get to know each person first as an individual, then take it from there. I do not need to know his/her race/creed/religion/nationality, etc. and then decide if I want to get to know him. He is a human being first. I am not afraid of him. I take it slowly, and learn. I do not hate him. I do not love him. I just want to know him. He will tell me who he is pretty quickly, and then I will make my decision about how I choose to deal with him as an individual. I do not think that this is so hard to understand.

 

And, finally Vindekarr. I think that this thread may be in jeopardy of being shut down if we do not tone down some of our rhetoric just a tad. I understand that you have some very strong feelings on this subject, but would appreciate it if you could express them a tiny bit more gently, in order that we might continue the debate.

 

Thanks in advance for your co-operation.

[Surenas]

Surenas and Balagor, I think if you will both read my initial thread again you will find that you are both agreeing with what I said in the first place. We are afraid of the unknown, or what is different from ourselves.

That goes without saying, granny. Not by chance I've referred to "the unknown otherness", the often strange divergence from our acquired norms we're easily afraid of. This includes other cultures, colors, traditions, religions and lifestyles. And it goes both ways, granny. Any attempt to understand the otherness of the other one has thus to take enormous difficulties into account, a high degree of acceptance already in advance is required, the leopard has to change his spots first.

Fortunately, we here on the Nexus are skilled role players, to slip into the role of somebody else, to become one with the to be played figure is thus no big problem for us. The next step, the mental transfer of our virtual skills into reality is the decisive one to investigate the unknown successfully and (perhaps) to understand what's behind the otherness of the other one. Then we are free, much stronger than before and no longer to be seized with fear, no longer to be outfoxed by preachers of hate.

 

Give the leopards a chance - they can!