Oblivion races

[Amoramor]

Has anyone else noticed that there are too many races? Do we really need four different types of human races, three elf races and three humanoid races, with no major differences? Orcs and Nords are pretty much the same, so are Khajiit' and Argonians, as well as Breton and High Elves and Imperials and Redguards.

 

Why couldn't they just make 3 or 4 races that have bonuses in either stealth, magic or melee? It's good to have choices, but still...

 

The worst thing about it is that they all live in cities like humans. Shouldn't Bosmer live in clans in forests? Dunmer in large underground cities in the darkness? Now it seems like the race-descriptions tell how the races used to be before they moved into cities.

 

I'd like to hear your opinions on this.

 

(PS. I hope you get my point... two points, actually. I'm not that good at writing long texts in English.)

[Ferryt]

I've commented about the essential sameness of the various human races, myself. There's not a lot of essential difference between the various mer races, either. Khajiit and Argonians are a completely different matter -- totally different species. My take is that there are too many and too few races. Yes, I know. That sounds mutually exclusive, but it's really not. Bear with me.

 

What do we actually have in Oblivion? We have humans, we have elves (with orcs being a branch of the elves), and we have the "beast races" (in Oblivion only represented by two species, neither of which follows the official lore in hardly any way). To me there are too few species. I'd rather see more playable species. Note that I did not say "playable races". I have no problem with multiple races within a species. I love some of the mods which introduce variants on the Khajiit, for instance.

 

The problem is that in Oblivion each human race and each elvish race has unique abilities. From a purely biological perspective this makes no more sense than all the misguided notions of "race" in the real world do. Let humans be humans, even if you have different races with different skin colors and facial features -- but they should all be humans. Same with elves. Orcs I can see being different, based upon their origin. So, that's what I meant. We have too many "races" which should just be minor cosmetic variants of each other, and that leaves us with five "real races" (read that "species"). I like variety. We need more species. Elder Scrolls lore has additional beast races. There are goblins, minotaurs, trolls, and ogres. They could be playable "races" (i.e. "species") as well.

 

Each species should have its own unique characteristics, of course, but I think that variants within a species should not. They should be cosmetic, only, just as "race" is nothing more than a cosmetic difference between the various real human races.

[Amoramor]

You're right about the species thing, we don't need that many variations of a species. But I don't think that we need more species either, not from Bethesda anyway. They think they can just add a playable race and say that it came from another planet to live in peace under human rule.

 

What I mean is, that books in Oblivion say that different races have their own countries, where the particular species is a majority. Morrowind, for example, is described as the land of the Dunmer. Then there's Black Marsh for Argonians and Summerset Isles for Altmer. Now, it seems like Cyrodiil is a mixture of all of those.

 

Bethesda screwed up the lore because of so many playable races. All the playable races live in Cyrodiil in the same cities with each other, and have merged into the Imperial society. They don't have any unique cultural habits, languages or anything. It takes off the bottom from the races and makes them boring. That's why there should have only been a few playable races with unique backgrounds and characteristics.

[jroin]

I compleatly disagree with you both, on both the nothions that there are no difference in the cutures or languages or even the "races" themselfs.

 

Have you ever played ES 3 "Morrowind"? it plays in a (small) region of Morrowind, the home lands of the Dun-Mer.

If you have you would notice that most, if not all your, claims only apply to ES 4 "Oblivion" which plays in Cyrodiil, I don't think that that is a shortcoming of Bethesda's creativaty but a choise or compromise they had to do du to Oblivion's really high rate of eyecandy's.

 

the first point I'll make is that Cyrodiil is the capitol province of the Impereal empire and Morrowind is taken (captured) land of the Dun-Mer (like the Romans did in North Africa and Europe).

This ofcourse is the primal reson for the culturall 'sameness' of al the races in cyrodiil they handle Impereal cuture first and their "own" second if at all.

 

In ES 3 you could clearly see the difference between the Dun-Mer city's and the Imperial ones, mostly in architecture.

you could also notise the idea of a "raceial" and culture language in sertain words and greetings, like "N'war", "Sira" and so on, and the Dun-Mer' fondness of "out-landers".

 

I do have to (more or less) agree with the LACK of "racial" difference becouse the main differences are in lore only.

 

"True" human races: Imperial, Redguard and Nede (nord)

"Other" human races: Brethon (are, according to lore, Half elfs: Brethon = (Ald-Mer + Nede = Man-Mer) + anny human (most likely Nords))

 

"Treu" elf races: Ald-Mer, Ayleid, Chi-Mer, Dwe-Mer, Orsi-Mer (orc), Alt-Mer, Dun-Mer and Bos-Mer

"Other" elf races: Man-Mer (Nedic or Nordic for half-elf)

 

Beast(people) races: Argonian and Khajiit

 

Akaviri: are a group of races and NOT just one.

 

 

I, personaly, would have done it a little different but with the same outcome.

 

1st: Pick a race; (Human, Elf (Mer) or Beast)

2nd: Pick a CULTURE; Nord (for example)

3rth: Have fun with the game.

 

 

But for real details I'll give you this: Races of The Elder Scrolls

[Ferryt]

jroin, we really don't have that many areas where we're in disagreement. You're falling back upon the official lore, though. We already know that Bethesda threw almost all the official lore out of the window with Oblivion, so it's pretty pointless to base any argument with respect to that game upon official lore.

 

I never said that there are no differences in language or culture in the official lore. We're talking about Oblivion, here, and official lore simply doesn't enter into the equation. Bethesda already butchered it beyond recognition. You're correct on all your points (except one -- official lore describes more races than you claim exist). Within the context of ES4, though, where lore was a non-issue to the developers, I think they could have done a much better job of giving us more variety. I seriously doubt that any player who has created more than just a couple of characters, sees the various elf and human races as being "distinct" from each other, with the exception of the darker skins of the Dunmer and Redguard. My favorite Bosmer character actually looks quite human, except for the pointed ears, simply because I think the default Bosmer is one of ugliest creations in the Vanilla game. Bethesda utterly failed in keeping the races physically distinct from each other, so what's the point in making them culturally distinct (or metaphysically distinct, for that matter), seeing that everything in Cyrodiil is based upon Imperial culture, anyway?

 

It's all about location. We're not in the province of Morrowind, much less the game Morrowind, when we're playing Oblivion. It might as well be an entirely different game in an entirely different setting because of the way Bethesda developed it in what amounts to a vacuum with respect to previous games.

[Amoramor]

EDIT: Seems like I'm going a bit off-topic here, sorry.

[jroin]

Perhaps I fell back on "official" lore a bit to much, I'll try to leave Lore out of the equation.

 

The physicall differences have been "butchered" in an atempt to keep the game as simple as possible while using discspace and cpu power to make the world itself nicer and/or prittier to look at.

 

Yes this resulted in, for example, the beast races only being different in their head mesh..,

In ES 3 they had a compleat uniqu skeliton and annimation-set, sadly these were the things that were placed on the chopping block together whit an entire magic school and a whole bunch of items.

 

In the case of weapons, every weapon practicaly came with its own weapon class; Short swords = daggers and short swords, Long swords = Long swords, 2handed swords = 2handed swords, and so on.

Also every weapon had 3 attack annimations (no "power" attack though).

 

Also Bethesda, more or less, neglected to place a limmit on the abbillities, all races can get all abbilities (in vanilla) on 100, this means that a compleated character always is the same. ( a realey mosterously stong high elf or a realy smart orc)

 

All of these points are the couse of the 'Sameness' of all the races in Oblivion.

 

I tend to view this as a anoiance and a point (for Bethesda) to improve on in a future version, ES 5(??), if that will ever get made.

[Ferryt]

I'll certainly give you the point on efficient use of disk space and cpu power as a possible trade-off to making the game "prettier" by leaving out a lot of things, but, really ... isn't "prettier" a very subjective thing? Yes, I was amazed at the eyecandy in the Vanilla game -- until I discovered I had to reduce/turn-off most of it to get the game to run on my machine, but that's neither here no there. In making everyone look essentially the same with respect to size and shape I think Bethesda "uglified" the game more than they "prettified" it. To me, if that was their intention in using the same body for everyone, they failed miserably in their goal. I'm not about gawking at the environment when I'm playing a game. I'm about game-play, role-playing, immersiveness, and "realism".

 

To me, seeing as how little actual disk space would be taken up with additional meshes and animations for the various non-human races, I can't help but think that they just didn't want to be bothered with doing that extra work, in spite of the fact that they already had the resources available in Morrowind. Orcs should be big and muscular. Elves should be short and slim (curse you, Tolkien, for two generations of people who have forgotten that, traditionally, elves are short and cute and not just humans with pointy ears and snobbish attitudes). What's a Khajiit, anyway, but a human in a fur suit -- at least in the game of Oblivion? Maybe that's why we don't actually see any of the Khajiit races but Suthay-raht. All Khajiit are actually out-of-work team mascots.

 

And, yes, I'm with you 100% with regard to race (and gender) caps on characters. It makes no sense to me, either, that every PC can max out all stats. As for gender, males tend to be stronger than females and the maximum strength for men (at least in humans) is much, MUCH, higher than the maximum strength for women. That's a biological fact that can't be denied. In game terms, there really aren't any stats in which females would be better than males, although I've seen many a game system try to "balance" the genders by giving females a boost in everything from charisma or beauty to dexterity and agility -- none of which are the actual case in real life. Face it ... if you want to play a female you should have to be forced into a relatively low strength ceiling for your character.

 

Little tweaks like these wouldn't have detracted from the eyecandy one bit, and wouldn't have significantly added to the resources included within the game, but, as I've already pointed out, Bethesda targeted Oblivion for a "T" audience -- kids who were likely raised on hack & slash games, with illusions of grandeur, and with almost no actual problem-solving capability (which is why the game literally holds your hand throughout every quest). I fear ES5 is going to more of the same. Bethesda has found a mother lode in the way they put Oblivion together. It's doubtful they'll abandon it unless their next attempt to do the same thing flops badly. We already know that they really don't listen to their users. M'aiq the Liar is all the proof you need for that.

[jroin]

Elves should be short and slim (curse you, Tolkien, for two generations of people who have forgotten that, traditionally, elves are short and cute and not just humans with pointy ears and snobbish attitudes).

 

Not really so..., there are multiple mytologies that portray Elf or Elf kind in various ways.

Gemanic mytology talk about Ljòssálfar and Svartálfar (Light-Elfs and (black) Dark-Elfs).

Light-Elfs are discribed as angellic TALL beings that can even change their size at will and are good hearted (even though slightly arogant, to humans).

Dark-Elfs on the other hand are in some sources a GROUP of beings; Dwarfs, Gnomes, Trolls, Goblins and such (as long as they are ugly (uglier than a human and or misshapen), and in other sources they are a race/species by their own right, they are meen and greedy.

 

They even hail from differend "relms" Light-Elfs => Ljòssálfheimr (Lightelf(home)relm) and Dark-Elfs => Svartálfheim (Darkelf(home)relm), if the Dwarfs are not counted as Dark-Elfs, Dwarfs => Nidavellir.

(whatever the case Dark-elfs always live underground and are, in compearison to Humans, short.

 

Even though the Dark-elfs are meen they do fight on the side of the Light-elfs and Aser (gods) during Ragnarök, thought this might rever to the Dwarfs, as I said sources differ.

 

 

Also the Kelts spoke of the Daoine sídhe who lived in Tír na nÓg and their ancestors the Tuatha Dé Danann who conquored Ireland.

The Tuatha Dé Danann were not ,by Kelts, seen as elfs though but as a people that could do things Humans could not. they were made into elfs mostly by Christians

 

 

I live in the east of the Neatherlands, Twenthe, we still tell tales about "Witte Wievn" no this does NOT mean White Women (that is something those West Dutch citydwellers think),

it means Witty Women, or well, Wise Women.

 

They are either the spirrits of the ancient Wise Women of the old tribes, or Elfs and are as tall as a "Normal" person.

(do ceep in mind that Dutch people are rather tall (I'm 1.96m 'bout 6' 6" and I'm 'bout averige in comperison to people I know).

About their demenor I'd say that they are nor good nor evil.

This is Neather-Saxon and Freesian volklore though. (Neather-Saxons and Freesians live in North and East Neatherland, North Germany and South Denmark)

 

 

So you now see that, if anything, Tolkien was not so far off after all.

 

Oh ya.., I almost forgot, I do agree with you on the rest though.

Edited October 22, 2010 by jroin

[Ferryt]

As I understand, although it's been a long time since I've been "into" Tolkien, and I do love his writing, by the way, he based his elves primarily from Nordic accounts. Even the elvish language is vaguely Finnish in many ways. This doesn't, however, negate the point that I made regarding elves. It's one thing to say that a certain mythological being is "considered" an "elf" by some people. It's quite another when that mythological being is actually called an "elf" within the context of that mythology.

 

Being of Irish descent and very much interested in the mythology of Ireland, and of the Isles in general, I'm quite familiar with the accounts of the sídhe. Are these beings "elves"? I don't think most people would consider them so. The same goes for most of the other beings that are lumped together as "elves" just because "elf" seems to have become a sort of catch-all term for magical creatures from fairy tales. Technically speaking, elves made their first appearance in Germanic mythology, and your description of them is correct, but this predates us by well over 2000 years. In more modern times the concept of "elf" became transmuted into what most people now consider them -- short, human-like beings with magical powers and pointy ears. It's what the vast majority of us "see" in our mind's eye when the word "elf" appears, derived mostly from the folklore of Britain.

 

I suppose it very much depends upon where you're from, how you're likely to view "elves". I live in the United States. My first introduction to elves as little more than humans with pointy ears was from the Lord of the Rings trilogy (I read The Hobbit and the Silmarillion much later). That depiction of elves was just a little shocking, since it went counter to everything I thought I knew about elves at the time.

 

Within the context of Oblivion all I see when I see an "elf" is a human with pointy ears. Where are the real differences between the two species? There aren't any. Elves are as different from one another and from humans as humans are different from one another -- minor variations in starting stats and different "racial abilities", but there's nothing specific and at all "special" to distinguish "elf" from "human", except for the ears.