Retail threatens Steam ban

[brokenergy]

Am I the only person who hates both sides? :confused:

[JimboUK]

 

Cracks for Steam games tend to be post release, cracks for physical media can be well before release. That initial day or so can make a huge difference to developers. Anyway this is complaining from high street stores who don't stock much anyway, online retailers don't seem too concerned.

 

The only people that buy games within the first day or 2 are the fanboy following, most people wait and see some reviews first before they dump money in a game, just for its name. My point is piracy within the first day or 2 of release still cuts out of the most substantial part of the potential sales of a game. So in the end, for all the trouble they are putting on the consumers who buy these games, it is unjustifiable in my book, and I won't buy ANY more Steam games. They aren't really doing a whole lot to stop piracy, and they really can't and them trying just makes them look like the gamer Gestapo to anyone to buys these games, likes the games, but hates Steam. I don't pirate games, but lots of people who feel the same way I do, end up just pirating and not paying.

 

Developers have said time and again that the first few days are very important, people get impatient and will buy if they have the money and there is no alternative. Copies of games that get leaked early will also have an impact on pre-orders, the temptation to cancel a pre-order must be great if that person already have a working copy of the game. I really don't see the problem with Steam, you can use it offline, you don't need a disk, you can download and play your games on any PC wherever you are in the world and it has a social network that is just as good as anything consoles have to offer. If I see someone on my list playing something and fancy joining them it just tales just a couple of clicks and I'm there, even the likes of XBL can't do that without the user inserting the correct disk. They are also very supportive of modding and indie titles, something we should all applaud. As DRM Steam is one of the lesser evils, there are far worse horrors to be found on disks. Using Steam as an excuse for piracy is laughable and flies in the face of the other common excuse "I don't want to have to keep putting the disk in the drive", people will always make excuses for stealing games but I've yet to hear a convincing one. While other retailers abandoned the platform Steam kept going, if these high street retailers who are crying foul had had their way PC gaming would be dead by now.

 

Steam is also excellent for developers/publishers. Steam pays promptly unlike other retailers, it also lets them see sales in real time and lets them adjust prices accordingly. It provides networking and social functions along with DRM so publishers don't have to do any of that. Inventory and distribution isn't an issue, Steam has infinite copies that take up no space and cost very little to deliver. What is good for developers/publishers is ultimately good for us, if they're happy they'll continue to support the platform. If high street stores push this then there'll only be one winner and it won't be the stores.

[ThomasKra]

I am seeing a lot of hate towards Steam that I feel is unwarranted. Here's why:

 

Anyone who complains about Steam DRM features has obviously not played a new-age Ubisoft PC game (hasty generalization notwithstanding). After buying and playing through Assassin's Creed 2 on PC, all I can say is: THAT was some of the most painful, piracy-encouraging copy-protection I've ever seen. Here's a taster:

 

-Constant internet connection required, even for a single player game.

-Saves are kept on an external server, not on your own hard drive.

-No alternatives, if your connection goes down, or the server bites it, you can't play. Period.

 

Steam, on the other hand, simply requires a first-time online verification for your game. Afterward, you can launch the game whenever, without internet, and even without a disc in some cases. Now compare Steam to the above. Which would you prefer? Would you rather be left to your own devices after a first-time verification, or would you instead prefer to constantly battle with a copy-protection scheme that is designed specifically to remove control of the software from the user. It's your choice.

 

Steam is no more restrictive in DRM than hard-copies requiring the 25 digit code before installation. Best of all, it allows you, the user, to RETAIN control of the software. Just look at the release of Oblivion on Steam, did they gimp the modding? No! In fact, they encouraged it by helping the community get OBSE working on the Steam version of the game. I bought Oblivion via Steam download, and Steam has so far given me absolutely NOTHING to complain about. It stays out of my way when I'm playing, and I can still do almost anything I'd want to the game without Steam complaining, not even running Nehrim.

 

Long story short: stop complaining about Steam DRM, there are FAR worse methods out there (*cough*Ubisoft*cough*).

[Chaosblade02]

 

Cracks for Steam games tend to be post release, cracks for physical media can be well before release. That initial day or so can make a huge difference to developers. Anyway this is complaining from high street stores who don't stock much anyway, online retailers don't seem too concerned.

 

The only people that buy games within the first day or 2 are the fanboy following, most people wait and see some reviews first before they dump money in a game, just for its name. My point is piracy within the first day or 2 of release still cuts out of the most substantial part of the potential sales of a game. So in the end, for all the trouble they are putting on the consumers who buy these games, it is unjustifiable in my book, and I won't buy ANY more Steam games. They aren't really doing a whole lot to stop piracy, and they really can't and them trying just makes them look like the gamer Gestapo to anyone to buys these games, likes the games, but hates Steam. I don't pirate games, but lots of people who feel the same way I do, end up just pirating and not paying.

 

Developers have said time and again that the first few days are very important, people get impatient and will buy if they have the money and there is no alternative. Copies of games that get leaked early will also have an impact on pre-orders, the temptation to cancel a pre-order must be great if that person already have a working copy of the game. I really don't see the problem with Steam, you can use it offline, you don't need a disk, you can download and play your games on any PC wherever you are in the world and it has a social network that is just as good as anything consoles have to offer. If I see someone on my list playing something and fancy joining them it just tales just a couple of clicks and I'm there, even the likes of XBL can't do that without the user inserting the correct disk. They are also very supportive of modding and indie titles, something we should all applaud. As DRM Steam is one of the lesser evils, there are far worse horrors to be found on disks. Using Steam as an excuse for piracy is laughable and flies in the face of the other common excuse "I don't want to have to keep putting the disk in the drive", people will always make excuses for stealing games but I've yet to hear a convincing one. While other retailers abandoned the platform Steam kept going, if these high street retailers who are crying foul had had their way PC gaming would be dead by now.

 

Steam is also excellent for developers/publishers. Steam pays promptly unlike other retailers, it also lets them see sales in real time and lets them adjust prices accordingly. It provides networking and social functions along with DRM so publishers don't have to do any of that. Inventory and distribution isn't an issue, Steam has infinite copies that take up no space and cost very little to deliver. What is good for developers/publishers is ultimately good for us, if they're happy they'll continue to support the platform. If high street stores push this then there'll only be one winner and it won't be the stores.

 

Pirates can also do all of the same features Steam offers, so it offers no incentive for them to participate, if I was a Pirate, I wouldn't be complaining, because I wouldn't give a damn about Steam, because I can just get around it, but the fact that I do pay for games, is why I care, and why I don't like being forced to use a 3rd party. The whole thing just reeks to me, being funneled into a 3rd party provider that advertises and sells stuff, and I don't even have a choice. They basically just forced everyone into a market, with the intention of using it as a solid base of advertising to make more money. I really don't care about all the deals Steam offers on games, because I only pay for physical copies, not data. If I buy a game I want a physical copy, or no deal.

 

The fact isn't whether Steam is a good service or not, its being forced into the deal, without any say in the matter. Give me the choice of using Steam and I might like it, tell me I don't have a choice, and I will tell you that sucks. So those wondering where the hate is coming from, THIS is why.

 

If Steam is the future of PC gaming, then I'm done with PC gaming. I don't care if the game equivalent of Jesus Christ is released next year on Steam, I am not buying it.

[JimboUK]

Pirates do not offer what Steam does, for a start pirates don't always offer patches and they generally don't do online services either. Anyway Steam can't compete with free, no retailer can. You're also forced to use 3rd party apps on disk based games, try stopping the Securom service and then running a game that uses it, try saving a GFWL game without GFWL running. How is Steam any worse than those two?

[CommanderCrazy]

"Steam is no more restrictive in DRM than hard-copies requiring the 25 digit code before installation. Best of all, it allows you, the user, to RETAIN control of the software."

 

No. There is no better control of your software than actually putting a disk in the drive, installing it and then playing it.

Steam does not give you control of your files.

[Vagrant0]

Pirates can also do all of the same features Steam offers, so it offers no incentive for them to participate, if I was a Pirate, I wouldn't be complaining, because I wouldn't give a damn about Steam, because I can just get around it, but the fact that I do pay for games, is why I care, and why I don't like being forced to use a 3rd party.

I would guess from this statement that you know next to nothing about how piracy tends to work in relation to DRM games, and are totally oblivious to how the piracy community operates. Generally this is a good thing, but here it just opens your argument with an ill-informed point. The groups behind piracy don't release games for the sake of the teeming, stupid masses; they release games primarily for bragging rights and to show the publishers that the DRMs which are in place can be circumvented. As such, these groups don't care about "features" so long as the game runs for them... And to hell with anyone else. This sentiment is repeated in many of the boards that piracy groups operate through by flaming, insulting, or sabotaging anyone who has trouble running their releases. Once a working release has been distributed to give proof to other groups that the game was cracked, some groups stop that release in favor of "updated" versions which are missing necessary files, contain malware, or come with other surprises to screw with leechers who are just looking for a free game. There is no support for when these games are bad other than "find another one to download or figure it out NOOB!". Added into the fact that many newer games cannot be fully hacked without severe complications, and what you save in buying the game outright you lose in spending hours searching for a working version.

 

On average, out of 10 users who get banned from this site, 9 of them only mention their pirated game because they are having game issues related to their pirated version. 1 out of the 10 are often using a pirated version which is for a different localization or are missing required components and are looking for a replacement. If piracy was such a "good" option, there wouldn't be quite so many people around who have problems caused directly by piracy. In relation to newer games, pirated versions often don't even manage to make the game work completely or reliably because of how integrated certain copy protections are.

 

 

The whole thing just reeks to me, being funneled into a 3rd party provider that advertises and sells stuff, and I don't even have a choice. They basically just forced everyone into a market, with the intention of using it as a solid base of advertising to make more money. I really don't care about all the deals Steam offers on games, because I only pay for physical copies, not data. If I buy a game I want a physical copy, or no deal.

Funny. Since registering for Steam I havn't gotten one bit of spam mail from Steam, have not seen any particularly intrusive advertisements. Compared to many sites/games which force redirects through advertisements every time the site is loaded or the game is launched/closed, you have no reason to complain about something which pops up in an obvious window only when you launch steam on its own. If 3rd party advertising bothered you THAT much, you wouldn't be on the internet period.

 

Furthermore, I think you're forgetting the bit about how many games are released on a primarily digital basis just because the developer is independent or isn't setup to produce millions of physical copies. In both cases, there is only the 1st party involved, and the digital version often comes much cheaper than a physical version. Most MMOs have adopted this platform just because digital versions were easier to distribute. Sure, you can go to the store to pay $60 for what you can legally download for free from the game's website... But you get a nifty CD that has out-dated game information on it and an instruction book that you'll never use. Yes, this is somewhat personal preference, and I too prefer a physical copy when the option is practical, but you seem to forget that for many people in many places, physical copies of games are not practical. This is EXACTLY why these types of distribution platforms have been as successful as they have been, even with their numerous problems. In 10 years, physical media probably won't even be an option for anything other than basic system software, and this includes beloved consoles.

 

The fact isn't whether Steam is a good service or not, its being forced into the deal, without any say in the matter. Give me the choice of using Steam and I might like it, tell me I don't have a choice, and I will tell you that sucks. So those wondering where the hate is coming from, THIS is why.

Maybe you're too young to remember, but once upon a time you could put a CD rom or floppy into a computer, not have to install anything, and run the software without any issues. Now a days, you need to store most data related to a program locally, and have this obtrusive thing constantly running in the background eating up your resources. Even then, people had a choice... Either use windows in order to run windows based programming (80% of what was being created) or go be quiet and find something else. If you don't want to deal with what is a required component for a game, just don't play that game, don't buy that game, and don't even talk about that game... Very simple. Although windows and saving files locally was forced onto people, alternatives did exist and became popular in their own right.

 

If Steam is the future of PC gaming, then I'm done with PC gaming. I don't care if the game equivalent of Jesus Christ is released next year on Steam, I am not buying it.

And that is your freedom to do so. Nobody is forcing you to play games which are on steam. If you disagree so severely with a platform, you should boycott it completely along with any company that uses it. The problem however is that this is where the failure happens. People still buy/play the game, and as a result of their patronage, the company interprets that platform as a good one. When making a stand against something, you can't back out half-way through just because you feel left out. If you were all about animal rights, you wouldn't for example buy a dog from a pet store (which gets stocked from a puppy mill), treat it as your property, and demand obedience. Instead you would be standing outside that pet store protesting against their policies and generally interfering with any sales that come from that pet store, even if some of them were not abusive.

 

This does not mean that the alternative is to install that related product and show mandatory love for any services it requires, as that is rather ludicrous. But instead, just learning to deal with it as a necessary evil. You can still dislike steam for what it is and praise it for what it is not.

[JimboUK]

When Fairlight were busted not only did they find 100 CD copiers suggesting they were doing a little more than just cracking games, they also found weapons, forged driving licences and fake credit cards. These people aren't heroes standing up for the little guy against the big evil corporations, they are criminal gangs. Yet time and again people run executables made by these criminals on the same PC they do their banking and shopping on.

[Vagrant0]

When Fairlight were busted not only did they find 100 CD copiers suggesting they were doing a little more than just cracking games, they also found weapons, forged driving licences and fake credit cards. These people aren't heroes standing up for the little guy against the big evil corporations, they are criminal gangs. Yet time and again people run executables made by these criminals on the same PC they do their banking and shopping on.

Yep. I even knew someone who got their rocks off by uploading fake things to torrent site. He'd get together a gig or so of the most disgusting porn he could find on the web, stick it into one or two .cab archives, create some dummy files, toss in a DX redistributable to make it look authentic, and then make an EXE which would look like the normal installer but would propagate the persons harddrive with porn scattered around to random folders. After the exe completed "installing" it would close saying that the installation process was interrupted, so people would often re-install the "game" several times. Pissed off a good many people with that one.

 

I would also point out that many of these large botnets being used by China, Russia, and other countries with rampant hacker activity use p2p networks as a means of infecting thousands of computers worldwide. So, while you might be getting a "mostly" working game for "free", you could be turning your computer into a zombie to earn someone thousands of dollars through launching DDOS attacks for a payment, generating spam, or worse. Not really a viable option, even for the security obsessed as these little bits of malware tend to go unnoticed for weeks.

[JimboUK]

That's quite creative, you can imagine the panic that would have caused on a shared machine.