Thalmor secret

[Lachdonin]

It should be noted that erasing Man also necessitates erasing Mer. It's a division of Me and Him. The Thalmor, the REAL Thalmor, only want Us. Their goal is to prevent the Ehlnofey from becomming Men and Mer in the first place.

[117649AR]

Not disagreeing with you on that. Erasing the idea of Man is very different from destroying Mankind. That said, we really can't say for certain what would happen were the Thalmor to accomplish their goal of undoing Creation: it could very well be that they would simply be responsible for indiscriminate genocide, rather than a grand return to collective divinity.

[Lachdonin]

True, though i think the 'idea' of Man is a little deeper than just those round eared, short lived meat heads. Man represents something more than just a collection of mortal races...They at once represent mortality and ambition, and the linkages between those. Man is Lorkhan's creation, a means by which he sought to understand the Tower, to reach for more than he was. Man represents this ambition, and erasing them would be tantamount to erasing the very reason to create Mundis in the first place.

[Elimc]

The Thalmor want to destroy Mundus, this can be implied based on their history and confirmed by Ancano saying "The power to unmake the world at my fingertips, and you think you can do anything about it." Those may not be his exact words but they are pretty close.

[117649AR]

The Thalmor want to destroy Mundus, this can be implied based on their history and confirmed by Ancano saying "The power to unmake the world at my fingertips, and you think you can do anything about it." Those may not be his exact words but they are pretty close.

 

They do not want to destroy it, they want to unmake it: there is a very big difference between the two. The Thalmor do not simply want everything gone: that is what the Dwemer and their Numidium want, and is counter to the Thalmor endgame. Rather, the Thalmor wish to unravel Creation, which they believe will undo the making of Mundus and return all mortal life to immortal et'Ada. Whether or not their plan would succeed, we do not know, but this is what they believe and what they work toward.

[kimmera]

 

The Thalmor want to destroy Mundus, this can be implied based on their history and confirmed by Ancano saying "The power to unmake the world at my fingertips, and you think you can do anything about it." Those may not be his exact words but they are pretty close.

 

They do not want to destroy it, they want to unmake it: there is a very big difference between the two. The Thalmor do not simply want everything gone: that is what the Dwemer and their Numidium want, and is counter to the Thalmor endgame. Rather, the Thalmor wish to unravel Creation, which they believe will undo the making of Mundus and return all mortal life to immortal et'Ada. Whether or not their plan would succeed, we do not know, but this is what they believe and what they work toward.

 

 

Regardless of intent, undoing creation is pretty much the definition of nihilism. It may or may not result in a new improved (or old preferred) reality.

[117649AR]

 

 

The Thalmor want to destroy Mundus, this can be implied based on their history and confirmed by Ancano saying "The power to unmake the world at my fingertips, and you think you can do anything about it." Those may not be his exact words but they are pretty close.

 

They do not want to destroy it, they want to unmake it: there is a very big difference between the two. The Thalmor do not simply want everything gone: that is what the Dwemer and their Numidium want, and is counter to the Thalmor endgame. Rather, the Thalmor wish to unravel Creation, which they believe will undo the making of Mundus and return all mortal life to immortal et'Ada. Whether or not their plan would succeed, we do not know, but this is what they believe and what they work toward.

 

 

Regardless of intent, undoing creation is pretty much the definition of nihilism. It may or may not result in a new improved (or old preferred) reality.

 

 

On the contrary, it's far different from nihilism. Nihilism is, by definition, "The rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless." This does not apply to the Thalmor: they still possess morality (and arguably are driven by that sense of morality, as they see Mundus as nothing but a prison in which suffering is enforced by mortality), they still venerate their Gods, and they do not believe that life is meaningless. Rather, they believe that mortal life is a curse, and seek to return all living things to the state that they were in at the very beginning, which is to say the immortal et'Ada: they want to rid everyone of suffering by returning everyone to their previous state as Gods.

 

The Dwemer, however, are nihilists. The Numidium most perfectly embodies this, and was specifically designed to "refuse the world" and thusly erase the Aurbis in its entirety.

[kimmera]

 

 

 

The Thalmor want to destroy Mundus, this can be implied based on their history and confirmed by Ancano saying "The power to unmake the world at my fingertips, and you think you can do anything about it." Those may not be his exact words but they are pretty close.

 

They do not want to destroy it, they want to unmake it: there is a very big difference between the two. The Thalmor do not simply want everything gone: that is what the Dwemer and their Numidium want, and is counter to the Thalmor endgame. Rather, the Thalmor wish to unravel Creation, which they believe will undo the making of Mundus and return all mortal life to immortal et'Ada. Whether or not their plan would succeed, we do not know, but this is what they believe and what they work toward.

 

 

Regardless of intent, undoing creation is pretty much the definition of nihilism. It may or may not result in a new improved (or old preferred) reality.

 

 

On the contrary, it's far different from nihilism. Nihilism is, by definition, "The rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless." This does not apply to the Thalmor: they still possess morality (and arguably are driven by that sense of morality, as they see Mundus as nothing but a prison in which suffering is enforced by mortality), they still venerate their Gods, and they do not believe that life is meaningless. Rather, they believe that mortal life is a curse, and seek to return all living things to the state that they were in at the very beginning, which is to say the immortal et'Ada: they want to rid everyone of suffering by returning everyone to their previous state as Gods.

 

The Dwemer, however, are nihilists. The Numidium most perfectly embodies this, and was specifically designed to "refuse the world" and thusly erase the Aurbis in its entirety.

 

 

I argue that the Thalmor are nihilistic in that they belief that not just the lives of Humans have no value, but also their lives as Mer have no value. They aren't trying to undo creation and 'recombine' out of a love of all things human or a longing for that half of prior existence. They reject the value of life as it is.

 

Per Webster: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nihilism

nihilism

noun ni·hil·ism \ˈnī-(h)ə-ˌli-zəm, ˈnē-\

: the belief that traditional morals, ideas, beliefs, etc., have no worth or value

 

: the belief that a society's political and social institutions are so bad that they should be destroyed

 

 

They believe that reality as we currently know it has no value. As stated several times in this discussion, they don't want just to erase Man, but to erase Mer and Man at a conceptual level, to 'undo' them. That is about as Nihilistic as it gets.

 

They aren't looking to erase mortality by removing death and decay from the situation. They don't want immortal mer and immortal humans coexisting. They are trying to erase mortality by erasing both Mer and Humans from reality.

 

I'd argue that the Dwemer, on the other hand, were not necessarily Nihilistic, in that they simply were looking to remove themselves. If they successfully shifted to their own pocket dimension, then they arguably successfully ascended as a race. If they deliberately committed mass suicide, then yes, they were nihilistic to that degree, but they still didn't try to take reality down with them.

[117649AR]

 

I argue that the Thalmor are nihilistic in that they belief that not just the lives of Humans have no value, but also their lives as Mer have no value. They aren't trying to undo creation and 'recombine' out of a love of all things human or a longing for that half of prior existence. They reject the value of life as it is.

 

Per Webster: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nihilism

nihilism

noun ni·hil·ism \ˈnī-(h)ə-ˌli-zəm, ˈnē-\

: the belief that traditional morals, ideas, beliefs, etc., have no worth or value

 

: the belief that a society's political and social institutions are so bad that they should be destroyed

 

 

They believe that reality as we currently know it has no value. As stated several times in this discussion, they don't want just to erase Man, but to erase Mer and Man at a conceptual level, to 'undo' them. That is about as Nihilistic as it gets.

 

They aren't looking to erase mortality by removing death and decay from the situation. They don't want immortal mer and immortal humans coexisting. They are trying to erase mortality by erasing both Mer and Humans from reality.

 

I'd argue that the Dwemer, on the other hand, were not necessarily Nihilistic, in that they simply were looking to remove themselves. If they successfully shifted to their own pocket dimension, then they arguably successfully ascended as a race. If they deliberately committed mass suicide, then yes, they were nihilistic to that degree, but they still didn't try to take reality down with them.

 

Again, the Thalmor don't believe that existence has no value, and they do want to erase mortality: mortality is the curse that they are trying to undo. They believe that all suffering traceable to Creation, and that by forcing mortality upon the Ehlnofey, and thus forcing their degeneration into the mortal races of Men and Mer, Lorkhan committed an unforgivable sin. I've already shown that the definition of nihilism does not hold when considering the Thalmor: they are driven by a sense of morality, they hold to their long-established religious beliefs (and are, again, driven by them), and they do not wish to "destroy" any political or social institutions: they only wish to make them irrelevant. Arguably the Thalmor believe that political and social institutions are of great importance, as they are the tools that they use in the short-term to enforce order and facilitate their plans before the unmaking of Mundus renders them unnecessary.

 

On the contrary, the Dwemer are precisely nihilistic. They did not only seek to remove themselves, they sought to remove everything. Their entire grand project, Numidium, was a means by which they would achieve Godhood and thus become capable of refusing the world: they sought to destroy Mundus, to destroy Oblivion, to destroy Aetherius, to destroy the Aurbis. It wasn't mass-suicide, it was transformation into a more capable platform through which they could act on their beliefs.

[kimmera]

 

 

I argue that the Thalmor are nihilistic in that they belief that not just the lives of Humans have no value, but also their lives as Mer have no value. They aren't trying to undo creation and 'recombine' out of a love of all things human or a longing for that half of prior existence. They reject the value of life as it is.

 

Per Webster: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nihilism

nihilism

noun ni·hil·ism \ˈnī-(h)ə-ˌli-zəm, ˈnē-\

: the belief that traditional morals, ideas, beliefs, etc., have no worth or value

 

: the belief that a society's political and social institutions are so bad that they should be destroyed

 

 

They believe that reality as we currently know it has no value. As stated several times in this discussion, they don't want just to erase Man, but to erase Mer and Man at a conceptual level, to 'undo' them. That is about as Nihilistic as it gets.

 

They aren't looking to erase mortality by removing death and decay from the situation. They don't want immortal mer and immortal humans coexisting. They are trying to erase mortality by erasing both Mer and Humans from reality.

 

I'd argue that the Dwemer, on the other hand, were not necessarily Nihilistic, in that they simply were looking to remove themselves. If they successfully shifted to their own pocket dimension, then they arguably successfully ascended as a race. If they deliberately committed mass suicide, then yes, they were nihilistic to that degree, but they still didn't try to take reality down with them.

 

Again, the Thalmor don't believe that existence has no value, and they do want to erase mortality: mortality is the curse that they are trying to undo. They believe that all suffering traceable to Creation, and that by forcing mortality upon the Ehlnofey, and thus forcing their degeneration into the mortal races of Men and Mer, Lorkhan committed an unforgivable sin. I've already shown that the definition of nihilism does not hold when considering the Thalmor: they are driven by a sense of morality, they hold to their long-established religious beliefs (and are, again, driven by them), and they do not wish to "destroy" any political or social institutions: they only wish to make them irrelevant. Arguably the Thalmor believe that political and social institutions are of great importance, as they are the tools that they use in the short-term to enforce order and facilitate their plans before the unmaking of Mundus renders them unnecessary.

 

On the contrary, the Dwemer are precisely nihilistic. They did not only seek to remove themselves, they sought to remove everything. Their entire grand project, Numidium, was a means by which they would achieve Godhood and thus become capable of refusing the world: they sought to destroy Mundus, to destroy Oblivion, to destroy Aetherius, to destroy the Aurbis. It wasn't mass-suicide, it was transformation into a more capable platform through which they could act on their beliefs.

 

 

Note "Traditional" morality. Under traditional morality, the Mer and Humans have a current existence and that has value. They have a right to continue existing.

 

Where is all that regarding the motivations of the Dwemer coming from? The closest thing we have to an answer in game to 'what happened to the Dwemor is Anriel getting impatient and ending up as a spirit that the dragonborn can summon. Leaving the world and moving beyond it is just as much 'refusing the world' as destroying it. Subjectively they are identical results.