What game ending-outcome would you like?

[Unethikal]

i would join the legion, boomers, great khans, along with the various raiders to form a massive army. according to NCR people, the legion has the NCR outnumbered insanely, plus their soldiers are just plain better. Joining with the rest on the groups i mentioned will allow them to roll over any faction in the wasteland no matter what their alliances. It would be better for the people there because as the trader in the fort says, legion lands are the safest around. also, the legion, if they follow caesar's template, will be the best society any faction has to offer. after the takeover, they can absorb their allies and as arcade gannon says, "build the new world in the image of the old"

 

No society like the Legion can survive the long haul. You end up with too many people forced into submission and eventually that gets out of hand and you end up with a revolt of some kind. There's no freedom, no fun, no quality of life. It's just serve the leader and do what we say all the time. If you don't agree with them they kill you. They take over land with no goal except to take over more. It's an empty, brutal way to live. As far as that whole image of the old goes, who's image we talkin' about here? Yea that's what I thought. No thanks. The NCR's not perfect but at least they act civilized for the most part.

 

You're making a fallacious assumption that Legion settlements (non-military) have a poor quality of life considering we haven't seen any of them.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Unethikal

[MadMann135]

I would like a Brotherhood and Followers treaty. The brotherhood could keep the weapon and power armor technology while the followers get more useful technology IE energy production and agriculture.

In the end it would greatly benefit both as both would have powerful allies and Veronica would feel relieved as the brotherhood would not die out in a silent whimper.

 

Shame that is not going to happen and as a result not cannon.

[drakeelvin]

Well the NCR win with House dead was my most recent ending and I have to say the most fun I had in that entire game was working for Col. Moore! I got to slaughter The Kings (payback for charging homeless people for water, they had it coming, plus SORRY Mick and Ralph but my Freeside reputation could not have gotten any worse so you were both dumb to not barter with me) AND I got to butcher the Great Khans (payback for Goodsprings, yeah!) AND I got to use what I'm guessing was a small fission or very very small thermonuclear device to slaughter the Brotherhood of Steel (payback for that collar b.s.).

 

My most memorable line in that game was to Crocker: "You wanted a man dead, he's dead. Now give me my caps."

 

But I digress.

 

I would have LOVED to arrange a friendly fire death for General Oliver and help Col. Moore get promoted to General. If Moore were in charge the NCR would not be facing an overpopulation crisis and food shortage in 10 year, thats for sure, but mostly because payback is fun, and offing Oliver would be payback for all the bad lines I had to hear him say!

 

:)

[RealmEleven]

Agreed Dasim, The roman model might be fine for welding a national unit together and conquering/pacifying the region but the long term . . . the Julio-Claudian Caesars went to hell in around 150 years that was swiftly followed by a theocracy. . .Nice!

Sorry the legion is too vulnerable to the guy at the top going nuts and taking the whole show with him. The NCR is least of evils.

 

But to provoke a different spin on this can anyone think of a faith, a creed or philosophy to introduce to the game to effect the outcome. Supposing the far left came to power in the NCR (Roosevelt style) or the followers suddenly embraced Jesus (or Buddha for that matter). Not a hell of a lot changes if gangs like the Jackals become devotees of Kali the Destroyer but if the Great Khans suddenly discovered Timothy Leary had all the answers things could change faster than you could say "LSD in the water supply".

Just wondering whats the smallest thing to introduce that would have the greatest effect.

 

While I think the Romans may have had a vastly improved system for their time, I agree that lack of a constitution to protect their administration from the frailties of human leaders was ultimately a key factor in their downfall. I also like the original suggestion so much that I’ve printed it off so I can see if anything jumps out when the computer isn’t running.

 

Going with the change in spin, I tend to think it would be better to begin to represent differences of temperament more rigorously in NPCs before moving on to temperament dependent issues such as belief and religion. Major philosophical and religious ideas rode on the back of imperial communication and supply lines. However when empires broke down because harvests became too poor in colder periods, philosophical schools tended to become regionalised, and cultural differences between regions dictated diversification. Such harsh conditions generally didn't spawn major empires. Instead, the tribal model of confederated states that continually preyed on one-another was the practice when staple foods could not be grown plentifully enough to maintain a standing army (as opposed to raiders, brigands and pirates that lived off the spoils of their enemies). This also had an impact on the practicalities of travel and the propagation of information. The 100 schools of philosophy period, which began in China some time before the Greeks had written philosophy is a good example of what happens ideologically during harsh times. The consequences of “the burning of books and burying of scholars” that followed as a consequence of political figures trying to subvert academia into the role of propaganda just goes to show how lucky the Greeks were to have Ptolemy who, if I recall rightly, started a library to preserve the knowledge that had been gained. Better late than burned! This is the very real historical precedent for the plotline in The Book of Eli; a film which seemed to make a strong association with Fallout 3.

 

Bethesda’s representation of numerous competing factions in a post-nuclear apocalypse seems to make a lot of sense. I think that ideologies would also vary greatly – especially on a regional basis. This does come out with the different outlooks that are apparent in the characteristic behaviour of the various factions. However, and this is where it gets interesting, early in the subversion of a philosophy into an religion (by politicisation), small discontinuous splinter groups split away due to differences of interpretation. I think that this ultimately results from differences of perception that are an inevitable consequence of differences in temperament. Initially, compromises are made to preserve the unity of numbers, but eventually the temperament that dominates the administration of the religion winds up dictating what is and is not an authorised interpretation. Eventually, the dominant temperament in the religion begins to dictate which of the “holy” books are authentic (usually the ones that identify the character traits of the dominant temperament as the only “normal” or “virtuous” character traits) – and which books are to be considered apocryphal – or worse yet, censored. By the time the literature base is purged, the resulting “orthodox” variation of the faith, in all likelihood, bears absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to the original philosophy. Add disasters that will affect the availability of literature as effectively as would a nuclear holocaust (e.g. systematic religious persecution by persons that can brook no variation of opinion) and this, by itself, can totally change the character of the religion. This seems to be apparent in differences between the original Torah and the later Talmud.

 

So I think that if one was to represent the influence of philosophy and religion in the “Mohave Wasteland”, it would have to emerge as several unrecognisable variants of the original religions – each being regional in extant - and at least thirty percent of the major contenders (in such circumstances) would have to be recent “revelations” with radically different claims, not just about life, the universe and everything; but also about what is said in the texts of the other, older, religions; what their history is and how it relates to and just happens to validate the emergence of the “new order” while deprecating their competitors. Comparing the claims various religions make about one another is as hilarious as it is a wake up call to the implications of telling lies for “God”, not to mention the equivalent psychological implications of telling lies for the “greater good”. This latter peccadillo has always been popular amongst those politicians who would not hesitate to promote murdering unsuspecting strangers for the “greater good”. Edwin Black’s War Against the Weak gives us a solid historical example of where the “greater good” rationalisation really leads and, according to Black, the Eugenics movement actually did actively promote, and in some countries commit, the murder of unsuspecting strangers if they happened to have the wrong physical characteristics or fail the so-called “IQ test” that was doing the rounds at the time. Given the Enclave’s strikingly eugenics-like activities in Fallout 3’s Capitol Wasteland, I could easily see this faction emerging from the Mojave Wasteland with the kind of inhumanity that would make even Caesar’s most infamous slavers look like the good guys. However, it wouldn't be realistic without a convincing and deceptive in-game propaganda campaign with all the trimmings (such as the inconvenient facts and the logical fallacies used to evade them - and the behind-the-scenes bullying, threats that only the in-group could verify and the kind of disavowed thuggery that always follows on the heels of Fascists, Nazis and other ideological extremists).

 

I tend to think that the accurate treatment of religious influence in a game would additionally require a rigorous representation of how logical fallacies are used, in politics and religion alike, to conceal lies and divert attention away from inconvenient facts. However, the incessant finger-pointing that is so characteristic of ideological proponents of both species presents an excellent theme for a mod that represents the use and purpose of logical fallacies. The trick is to do it without alienating players that are trapped in real-world ideological deceptions. This objective could be furthered by representing or demonstrating the point, in-game, how it is that more conventional "real-world” views might not have survived, and allowing some leeway for the player to start his/her own ideological faction for the sake of “truth, justice, and my way”!

 

I think at this point, it would be worth exposing the player to the manipulative nature of ideology and how the tendency of an ideology to engage in deception to secure at least some of the time and resources of its adherents “for the greater good” is what actually makes any ideology inherently and inevitably unethical. However, doing this without imposing value-judgements on game play could be tricky…

 

--

Tim

RealmEleven

[Gashjackel]

My preferred end?

 

Sick with the fact that the Lost Hills bunker is ignoring them the East Coast Brotherhood send an expedition west. Coming across the Mojave, a land in dire need they step in and with the help of the Courier help bring the region under their control.

Things get better. Because thats what they do on the East Coast. They make things better.

[mdingman]

ok, seriously? the brotherhood has nowhere near the manpower to take over. As the battle of Helios 1 showed us, the brotherhood cannot hold against superior numbers. i would want an ending where you basically stick to the alliances from the beginning (i.e. Legion+Khans+Fiends+Omertas+White Gloves+Boomers) and side with the legion while they kick everyone else's asses. after the legion assimilates every1 else and the game ends, Caesar has you replace lanius then a DLC or a whole new game has you leading the Legion into California to finish off NCR

 

and @ Dasim4, the "old" refers to the Roman Empire, which, if you know anything about history whatsoever, was the most successful and greatest empire ever, and we owe most of western society to it. The Romans had an excellent quality of life, but before they became great they had to sieze control of the surrounding area. That meant destroying the Gauls, the Samnites, the Greeks, and the Carthaginians. Caesar is doing the same thing, destroying his competition so that he can found a society free from the threat of invasion, in so doing ensuring it's success.(by the way he tells you about this, he tells you what he's going to do, you just have to talk to him) on a side note, FoNV itself does not acurrately portray the Legion, because as post #31 told us, we haven't seen any of them, we've just seen their military camp.

 

Also, for those who doubt the longevity of the Legion, for now it's dedicated to a man, but Caesar is smart. He knows he's not going to be around forever, and thus will try, once NCR is finished off, to dedicate them to the idea of the Legion, the emulation of the Roman Empire. And FYI, the roman empire didn't go to h-ll after 150 years as was previously posted here, it went to h-ll around the 4th century that's several hundred years

 

And if you know anything about Roman history, the emporers were fine(there were a few wackos like Nero, but they were overall decent), right up until Marcus Aurelius died, and then the Praetorian became corrupt, it wasn't the emporers being bad for the most part, it was that they got assassinated before they could do anything. This stopped during Constantine's reign and a string of successful emporers followed, but then Diocletian(a complete moron) decided to split the empire into east and west to make it easier to manage. The problem was that the economy was in the east, so the west went bankrupt and then the barbarians walked in and took over.

 

Additionally, there are contengencies that can be taken to ensure that a ruler isn't insane or an idiot, like the tests that the ancient Chinese made their aspiring government officials take. The Romans didn't do that though, they went by lineage, not by merit. That doesn't mean that Caesar won't do something different. He knows how the romans fell, and he's smart.

 

Anyways, how is the NCR different? they say that they're a democracy, but whatever the president says, goes, and their presidents are basically rulers for life(not really, but they ususally rule for decades), they're just elected. They can go crazy or be stupid, they just have to win the election.

Edited March 16, 2011 by mdingman

[Gashjackel]

Honestly I prefer House. The man has a plan, the will and the means to carry it out.

[mdingman]

i never really liked house. He just seemed kinda sketchy, like once he controlled everything, he would have victor kill you in your sleep. Also, he was just too easy to kill. the securitrons really never had that much HP(1 shot from mysterious magnum kills them on hard difficulty), and all it really takes to kill House is someone with a stealthboy. you don't even need a weapon. I mean, who leaves the computer that can end his life UNGUARDED? YOU DON"T EVEN HAVE TO HACK INTO IT!!! he's too arogant, he thinks nobody can beat him when in reality it's all too easy

[Gashjackel]

Remember no one else can get into the Lucky 38. You really did have the hardest part of killing him done for you.

Also House made it quite clear he had no intention of killing you if you worked for him. Overall he is actually quite a good employer. Look how he treats the three families. Gave them rich and extravagant lifestyles in exchange for their work.

He's a bit arrogant yes. But when you can determine using mathematics what people are going to do to within a small margin of error? Yeah you've earned that.

[mdingman]

You can get into lucky 38 if you get past the securitrons that are guarding it. And, really, he could have just liedd when he said he had no intention to kill you. When everyone else is gone, you are the greatest threat, and house isn't about to have his plan spoiled.