Can-this-be-done questions and more

[temnix]

The questions:

 

i) Is it possible to change the dialogue options for guards when they rush to arrest you - so that, if you submit, you are sent to a court room? Or is the selection "hard-coded"?

 

ii) Could a bounty on your head be suspended for a certain period while you are undergoing a punishment - say, a forced pilgrimage to be completed within a month?

 

iii) Provided you have a "letter patent" (permission document) from some authority, Imperial or Guild, could a guard be made to accept that in place of bounty?

 

iv) Any way for a modder to make Infamy conditional - "you get Infamy points for doing this, unless have item/quest..."?

 

The explanation:

 

I'm dissatisfied with the justice and punishment system in Oblivion, just as I was in Morrowind. The reasons are too many. I may in the future put up a little information on Roman and medieval punishments and courts for modders' inspiration, to show what a poor fare we are getting.

 

The gist of my complaints: 1) the range of punishments isn't nearly diverse enough and the options too mild, 2) you can buy yourself out of trouble - not with a bribe, which would affect only those about to apprehend you, but out of all trouble with the law entirely, 3) you, the criminal, get to decide whether to pay or go to jail, which is odd, 4) role-playing "a criminal's life" outside of the prison is limited to resisting guards and hiding from them, because the arrest options are the same for all, 5) the guards are detectives, judges and executioners in one, 6) they can miraculously report your wrong-doings to their brethren far, faaar away - if you kill one guard in X and others saw it, all those in Y will know, 7) they will pay your bounties if very friendly or you are famous.

 

While Bethesda put this last one in probably to make Speechcraft more useful, it makes little sense. Fame, if anything, ought to make you vulnerable to crime accusations - you're a spotlight celebrity now. You may receive lighter, forgiving sentences, but any tarnish on your reputation will be so much the more obvious. As far as disposition goes, paying for the criminal is unlikely psychologically (just now the guard did not know you at all, and even if he did, opening up the purse for a friend isn't that common in life, unfortunately) as well as legally.

 

There isn't now nor, as far as I'm aware, has there ever been a justice system whose point and purpose was drawing money out of its citizens. It may be a side goal, and fines and bounties may be among the methods, but the thrust is usually one of these three: a) preserving communal unity by regulating feuds and reprisals, by banishing heretics, tradition-breakers and generally the weird and the strange, b) asserting the might and right of the sovereign against law-breakers by harsh punishments, bans and prerogatives, c) managing large and diverse populations with a view to peace-keeping and bringing deviants to a norm, scientifically and psychiatrically defined.

 

These three correspond very loosely to the ancient-early medieval, the classical and the modern periods. An example of what this would mean in practice: if you were a murderer in England around 700 A.D., you would be exiled from the village or town, denounced by the local clergy and left to wander the wilderness an outlaw. In the same country nine centuries later you would not be cast out but captured and publicly hanged or torn to pieces on a wheel to demonstrate how the royal power knows no limits. Another two hundred years and you would be examined and argued over by doctors, then sent to either a lunatic's asylum for study or, if tame enough, to a prison - not to lounge, but to toil in the factory along with other undesirables.

 

These are distinct options, each with an "atmosphere," and we could invent more. There is no reason, in principle, why Oblivion must copy a legal rationality from history. But the trouble is, the game makes use of none, nor does it introduce any. Justice in Oblivion is unwarranted simple. Only pay! And that's all the rehab you need. Of course, if this game was about being the Hero, then such details wouldn't matter, since Heroes aren't usually noticed stabbing merchants and stealing silverware from old ladies anyway. Then again, if Heroism was obligatory, I wouldn't want to play at all. Luckily, it's only suggested, and the famous open-ended nature of the series is all about having options.

 

Let me add that the miscreant life isn't necessarily for dreadful villains. Historically the lines between a well-behaved citizen and one accused of something were vague. In that same medieval England it was quite normal to suffer fines or be whipped or have an ear cut off. The mildest and luckiest of men could receive a court summons for just shooing away the king's deer grazing in his back yard, and if you speared it - oh my. In any of the European cities you also had a sort of standing army of beggars, pilgrims, dispossessed noblemen, mercenaries, invalids with nothing to live on, itinerant preachers and just plain poor folks - all quite ready to flare up at any moment. And sometimes they were hunted, and at other times brokered with. There was quite an underlife - just as there is today, but an accepted part of many more destinies.

 

I'm not saying something like this could be replicated in full. Or even that it should. But, you know, I'm not a 12 year-old boy. I'm tired of generic Beggars in Oblivion who, like, uh, steal stuff. And I don't want to kill kill kill monsters either - been there, done that. I want a sophisticated world different from the one I live in. I have a few extra weapons mods from tessource, some other shinies, but I'd trade them all for something serious and immersive. OOO, No Psychic Guards, Regional Bounties, Underlife and some others have fixed the most glaring errors in the original. More is needed, though.

 

How could the justice system be made better? Here are a few possibilities, if the questions above make sense and these indeed are possibilities and not pipe dreams.

 

1) The character can attempt to bribe the apprehending guard - not through the standard interface. Instead he is given a range of dialogue options as to the sum, but not told how much would be enough, and there is always a significant chance the bribe will fail. The cost is upped if other guards are in sight. Bribing anarchic Bosmer (should there be any) is more expensive than law-abiding Orcs and Imperials, but works more often as well. If successful, these particular guards let you go for an hour or until further crimes, but whatever bounty there was on your head remains. This way you can actually live as a sneaky outlaw, smoothing your way with a little gold here and there but not shunning all guards like the plague.

 

2) If you manage to bribe the guards, then commit another crime shortly after and while they are in sight (a short timer here), they will round you up. Also any guard you have assaulted within the last hour (another timer) will not accept bribes from you but will take you directly where he ought. You can still resist arrest as usual.

 

3) More varied punishments. Among them timed pilgrimages to shrines and temples with specific costly items to be left there. It is up to the character to find these items in stores, dungeons or wherever he may. Travels to very remote and dangerous places, with expensive offerings of gold and ebony and, randomly, a monster-bandit spawn at the destination site, follow heavier crimes. Petty thievery leads to shorter trips to nearby towns, where one merely needs to pray at the altar. Meanwhile, your criminal status is "suspended."

 

4) Another punishment is to wear special clothing with symbols of Akatosh for a specified time. Being seen by a guard without it during this period is a crime and ends the "suspension." Talking to NPC while dressed in these guilt robes leads to strongly negative reactions, and, for the time being, you may be refused some quests. (This is similar to the inquisition's practice of forcing heretics to wear crosses on their clothes so they'd remain shunned and unemployed.)

 

5) The bounty you have accumulated means something else: it is really the sum guards will get for killing you or bringing you in, so it factors in their combat scripts, including willingness to flee and give chase. The number itself is used only for this and determining the sentence. A very high bounty means a great degree of transgression, so a harsh sentence.

 

6) The character's punishment may still be in gold, but he does not get to choose this.

 

7) All sentences are declared out after the character goes to the court room. There, and not to prison, the guards "take" him. He can wander around the court room for a minute, but there is no exit, incorrigible guards are in, and his sentence is soon decided. Then, if that was the judge's choice, he goes to prison.

 

8 ) Historically jails weren't hotels, nor should they be in Tamriel. The character who goes to prison must pay for his maintenance a certain amount or go beggaring during the day. This is just a text box with a question. If he does pay, he lives in some comfort and the consequences for the skills are lighter than at present. If he chooses to beg for money or is too poor, the skill drops are severe, but he is likely get a bonus to Speechcraft and Security. In both cases the choice of jailbreak remains available.

 

9) Sentences not automatic but slightly randomized. Contracting the services of an NPC advocate in advance leads to easier sentences when in trouble. Fame also helps, but Infamy tips the scale the other way.

 

10) Guild high-ups (not counting the Dark Brotherhood) receive special defenders in court, again leading to lighter sentences (same mechanism of boosting a variable). For DB honchos there is a chance the judge will be found murdered, and no others will volunteer to take up the case (a text pop-up). In that case the character goes free but with a boost to his Infamy.

 

11) For the worst of crimes, expressed in the highest bounties, the character may be sent to be "executed" in ceremonial combat. A left-over tradition from as far back as the first Septim's time frowns on killing people without giving them a fighting chance, so the character receives a rusty dagger. He can use spells as well, but his Magicka and weapon skills are severely handicapped by a set of enchanted fetters. Otherwise this is a regular fight with a strong opponent. If you lose, you die. If you win, you go free and receive your items and gold back. Repeated victories in ceremonial combat earn a bit of Fame and may lead to bonuses and better reactions from the Arena faction.

 

12) Letters patent from powerful dignitaries handed out with their quests. Each letter is a carte blanche, authorizing the character to act as needs be within a limited area and for a certain time. May be shown to the guards to browbeat them, but only a few times. Also prevent Infamy accumulation within that area/period.

 

12) All of this made regional, as per Regional Bounties.

 

These are just some of the things that come to mind. A few would be harder to implement than the rest. But considering how much effort has gone into other, truly monumental mods, all appear feasible. Modders, your word?

[Povuholo]

i) Is it possible to change the dialogue options for guards when they rush to arrest you - so that, if you submit, you are sent to a court room? Or is the selection "hard-coded"?

 

You could let them bring you to jail and then go to court. There is a condition called IsPlayerinJail. You could do something so whenever the player is teleported to jail, he is teleported to a different room.

 

I'd love to see the daggerfall (TES 2) system back. Based on your 'speechcraft' you could convince the judge you were innocent, and if you were a member of the thieves guild they would help you with it.

 

 

Could a bounty on your head be suspended for a certain period while you are undergoing a punishment - say, a forced pilgrimage to be completed within a month?

 

But returned later? I'm not sure.

 

 

iv) Any way for a modder to make Infamy conditional - "you get Infamy points for doing this, unless have item/quest..."?

 

Let's say you want the player to have 10 YourItem's. If he doesn't have them, he will get +3 Infamy. If he does, he gets +2 Fame.

Example:

 scn DaScript

if player.GetItemCount YourItem < 10
ModPCInfamy 3 
endif

if player.GetItemCount YourItem => 10
modPCFame 2
endif
end

 

 

iii) Provided you have a "letter patent" (permission document) from some authority, Imperial or Guild, could a guard be made to accept that in place of bounty?

 

I think so. A new topic should be added when the guard catches you. If you select it there should be a check (GetItemCount) again. When it's right, say SetCrimeGold 0.

 

 

I like the idea of this mod. For more information, check the elder scrolls wiki. Especially the Crime Functions page could be of interest to you.

 

Edited: I was coding you instead of quoting you :P

[Abramul]

The symbol for the 'special clothes' would more likely be that of Stendarr.

 

#8: What was that guy's name in David Copperfield?

 

Instead of teleporting the player to the courtroom immediately, he should be left in the cell for a (game) hour or two, during which he might escape.

[WarKirby3333]

This sounds pretty good. It will require a lot of new dialogue and some talented scripters to make it happen though.

 

 

 

WarKirby

[CJD]

I agree this looks great, any possibilty of assassinating or bribing the judge. :D

[temnix]

Thanks to everyone for replies, especially to Povuholo. The dialogue for this mod wouldn't be a problem - I could write it up, and a book on the legal system as well - but yes, it would take a good scripter. Also Abramul's suggestion is an excellent one - that the character should have the option of escaping before the trial rather than after. The mod would also need a couple of custom items (some sort of clothing for the judges and the guilt robes) but I think I know where I can find a modeller. It's finding the scripter that's an issue here.

[Abramul]

I'd say a retexture should be sufficient for the robes.

 

What scripts do you need, exactly?

[GBHis]

You can give them a grey fox-cowl and some DB robes :)

[temnix]

You can give them a grey fox-cowl and some DB robes :)

 

That would be, well, lame.

 

As for which scripts are required, all the ones Povuholo mentioned. Plus I'd still like to know whether it's possible to "suspend" a bounty as punishment. Theoretically speaking, it should work as follows:

 

1) When the punishment of wearing guilt robes or pilgrimage is assigned, the current bounty value is recorded in a variable - let's say "bounty_due". Then bounty is set to 0.

 

2) When the player commits another crime, a script runs. It looks into "bounty_due" and adds it to the regular bounty value for the new crime, aggravating it.

 

3) After a certain time has passed, "bounty_due" is set to 0.

 

Well?