~bad karma

[Park77]

I am thinking simplicity is best. Because otherwise karma gets terribly complicated, taking Franks Hitler example.

 

Keep karma confined to generally accepted absolutes of good and evil, with a little allowance for gameplay. It shouldn't be hard as the social interactions in fallout aren't very complex. For instance:

 

1) killing is bad always. (for gameplay purposes, mercy killing and killing in self-defense is ok)

 

2) stealing is bad always (for gameplay, robbing corpses is ok...that's scavenging. If you murdered someone to rob them, you would have taken a karma hit from an unprovoked attack anyways)

 

3) doing good deeds are good, doing malicious/unnatural things are bad. Regardless of the future consequences.

 

I think that could be implement fairly easily.

 

Whether you'd want that tied in with reputation or not is another story...

[minngarm]

Absolutely, having three dog talk good or bad about you in FO3 as a result of your karma just added a lot more immersion(sp) to the game. Id more or less agree with your 3 basics about Karma use. Preferably removing karma effects from quest ends like the one i mentioned in the Pitt. Thus leaving it up to the player to figure out if they did the right or wrong thing overall. But even the followers would dislike you somewhat if you went around murdering people in the name of the NCR, even if its for the good of the people.

[Park77]

Double post...sorry Edited December 17, 2010 by Park77

[pob255]

I am thinking simplicity is best. Because otherwise karma gets terribly complicated, taking Franks Hitler example.

 

Keep karma confined to generally accepted absolutes of good and evil, with a little allowance for gameplay. It shouldn't be hard as the social interactions in fallout aren't very complex. For instance:

 

1) killing is bad always. (for gameplay purposes, mercy killing and killing in self-defense is neutral)

 

2) stealing is bad always (for gameplay, robbing corpses is neutral...that's scavenging. If you murdered someone to rob them, you would have taken a karma hit from an unprovoked attack anyways)

 

3) doing good deeds without asking for gain is good, demanding gain for a good deed is neutral, doing malicious/unnatural things (demanding gain or not) is bad. Regardless of the future consequences.

 

I think that could be implement fairly easily.

 

Whether you'd want that tied in with reputation or not is another story...

Slight alterations made

 

Rep and karma should be separate as karma is more of an internal thing, you steal something when no one's looking and your rep should be unaffected however your karma should go down as you committed the act regardless to weather or not you where caught.

 

However this still asks the question to the original post, if you've just killed everyone in a town/location then should taking all that stuff sitting around on shelves still be counted as stealing? as the original owner is now dead shouldn't this be looting?

 

While I think about it, what about killing feral ghouls?

Edited December 16, 2010 by pob255

[frank lee]

Why is it stealing to take the sodding medicines the bright followers have left? They've gone, not coming back and my character, who's been through all sorts of hell on their behalf looses Kama for taking some meds. Gimme a break!

Not my first play through, I stealthed my way around the ferals, didn't harm a hair on their radioactive heads. Took some lumps from the nightkin and some more from the golden geckos. I don't believe Jason would begrudge me. . . :rolleyes:

[Park77]

@pob255

Yeah, keeping the 2 separate would probably make more sense. Easier for gameplay logic as well.

 

FeralGhouls are abominations and therefore monsters. Like humans who turn to zombies. Don't think you'd lose karma for dispatching them.

 

Well if you murdered a town and took there stuff, isn't that looting? But I think that it'd be easier to not take a karma hit from stealing from the dead, but to get raped on karma for destroying the town.

 

@pob255 and franklee

 

For simplicity and gameplay, to address stealing items from the dead or gone, someone should port over the mod that removed faction status from items after death (and lets face it, jason and his crew aren't getting anywhere)

But...

Do you personally think there is nothing wrong from taking stuff from the recently deceased? Especially if its by your own hand?

 

Of course the values would have to be adjusted for karma to make it easier to become evil. I mean only -100 (on a scale of 2000) for killing an innocent? If you were a saint you could wipe out goodsprings and novac and people would still think you are swell.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Park77

[Weihoppa2]

Whatever you do, don't steal from the Legion and then from the NCR. Then your justaa thief!

[hungryHippo5]

wow didn't think ppl cared about this so much. That thing with the Bright Followers just happened 2 me on my 2nd playthrough (ie I helped them 2 go into space, even recalibrated their rockets, they left all their stuff behind & I'm losing karma 4 taking it!!!). What a joke! Clearly this instance is resultant of a programming oversight.

 

Re Cottonwood Cove, if removing them from the company of the living is a good karma act, then it follows that you shouldn't lose karma 4 taking their stuff either (as stealing from an evil man is less evil than murdering him). I mean, am I supposed 2 leave all their stuff there 4 the NCR 2 take? & If I do & some1 else takes it, they r equally bad as me aren't they? So if some1's gunna take their stuff, it may as well b me, I did every1 the favour of killing the slavery/sexism complicit jerks didn't I?

 

Compared 2 Fallout 3, the main difference I have found is THE HUGE AMOUNT OF GLITCHES IN NV, but that aside 3Dog was an integral character in fo3 & his radio station was like the moral compass of the game. Can u even find the guy who runs Radio New Vegas or whatever it's called & talk 2 him?

 

I agree with Park77, killing IS GOOD in this game if it's the right things/ppl u r killing (fiends, ghouls, radscorpions, Legion, Benny, x, etc...), therefore you should b able 2 steal from those ppl as well without losing karma. The best way I think would b that after characters are dead/gone (Cottonwood Slavers, Bright Followers), then their stuff is fair game & no karma penalty should apply. Is that really such a difficult thing 2 program? As Madman132 pointed out, they kinda got it to work in FO3.

 

I pretty much play how secksegai describes himself (b good, but steal if it's worth the karma hit). I only stole a few things from the boomers but I similarly justified it by thinking 'man after all I did 4 u guys u owe me'. He goes on 2 say 'Fiends r practically walking loot containers', which is true, but you would have to kill about 50 of them to afford some reinforced leather or combat armor. Which is y I stole a few from the boomers & repaired them into 1 good condition combat armor. The cost of repairing/purchasing good condition weapons & armor in this game is WAY HIGHER than in fo3.

 

I mean, my character was level 30 & I'd completed ~70% of all the quests in the game, yet I was still wandering around with Leather & Combat armor. Couldn't even afford a decent recon armor. & b4 realising the Brotherhood get attacked by lots of groups in the wasteland, I repaired a brotherhood power armor which was basically useless coz randoms my char was on good terms with didn't like my 'disguise'. I also finished the game without even firing about 1/2 the weapons I picked up coz they were in terrible condition, don't seem to remember this happening in fo3.

 

BethSoft definitely aimed too high with this 1, I mean they spent ~10 years between fo2 & fo3, then ~2 years between fo3 & New Vegas. I think they rushed it. I am hoping that some decent OFFICIAL DLC's will come out (ala Broken Steel, Operation Anchorage, Mothership Zeta, Point Lookout etc...) that will allow your character to 'patch things up' (PUN INTENDED). Ie the DLC's better come with some pretty hefty bug fixes, coz compared to FO3 this game is a mess!!!

 

Like minngarm said, "comparison of FO3 and NV, NV certainly has a lot less use for Karma, they took out a lot of the game mechanics that made you really feel your Karma level in FO3, or did they just bury it beneath a lot of other crap? Why not have it where if you have bad karma and a good reputation with the NCR, only certain main quests are available. Or good karma and good relations with the legion would force you to have to prove yourself with minor quests before being able to progress the main story? Something that wouldnt be so much player based, but based on the fluff of each faction you deal with, counting not just the rep, but your overall karma. Keep in mind this also makes a great use for neutral karma as you could get access to most content, and maybe even some exclusive content for neutral karma characters."

 

I say they aim high, DON'T RUSH IT & minngarm's description of karma/faction mechanics would b ~entirely implementable

 

I seriously couldn't believe that you couldn't use the VR Simulator in Hidden Valley!!!

[frank lee]

Bad Reputation

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BSNTYorSFE

[minngarm]

You should still get a karma hit from stealing from the dead, Im no expert on the theology of it, but I do believe that it is also believed that ones possessions take on a spiritual link with the owner over time. Like a family pocket watch passed down from father to son, it would be wrong to take it even if you killed the man who attacked you first without cause because of the emotional tie it held to its owner. Instead one should be buried with something that holds such a strong emotional tie. This is not to say that every single item should give bad karma though, as it makes sense to take medicines needed to help yourself or others.

 

Side thought, what about being able to drag a body to a grave and bury it for a karma bonus?