MagdalenaDwojniak Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) Evening, I always felt the two options offered by the game regarding Loghain's fate were not enough. While he does deserve to be punished, I think the Warden would want to avoid lowering themselves to the level (as executing him would give reasons for possible followers to say something like "The Wardens DID kill the ruler, even if he was a regent!"). Sparing him means turning him into a hero again, with all Warden skills. He's already a dangerous man. Imagine the power and all the opportunities for his crusade against Orlais, other races, abolitionists (he's, unsurprisingly, pro-slavery), basically anyone who is not a human noble from Ferelden. That's why I thought that, story-wise, a third option would be good to have. Basically, just impeach him and make him a worthy member of the society without the undeserved benefits of a hero, possibly a position he would thoroughly loathe. I assume the Circle of Magi has power to Tranquilize non-mages too; for a good reason. Well, it IS good reason now. Letting him go is too dangerous: he could try to rebel again, turn onto Orlais and cut all the ties the Theirins tried to mend together. Execution... It is definitely something he would do if you switched places; do you want to be like Loghain in these circumstances? I know my Warden would not (even though the quasi-medieval realm of Ferelden would not deem it very odd). This option has additional advantages. You show the Landsmeet you can do better than him. You show that to Anora - and then she owes you a huge favour. You basically have an ace up your sleeve. You don't play the devil's advocate to Alistair, because he feels becoming a Warden is an act of recognition, not a punishment (and that Loghain would never willingly agree to help the commoners, despite his own lineage or just plain justice, so it would be a much more severe punishment for him than a warrior's death - Alistair knows that and has his revenge the civilised way). You also oblige Anora to take the matter of social reforms seriously. Besides... Loghain humble and barren of anger, catering to the folk at the Chantry: revenge couldn't be colder, sweeter and more sophisticated :devil:. It has a lot of narrative potential regarding the fact that, while you could turn a blind eye on an attempt of assassination, when it comes to abandoning the king AND all troops, lying all the way, slandering the Order, being responsible for numerous deaths AND trying to sell a lot of people into slavery, most players simply can't. If Loghain was to be turned into an underdog, chances are he would rebel again. Anora apparently knows that as it is shown in "Rescue the Queen", so the third option sounds like one she would approve of. PS I might have been inspired by this sketch. Edited October 25, 2015 by MagdalenaDwojniak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yknotu Posted September 30, 2015 Share Posted September 30, 2015 Sounds interesting. I'm not sure about the tranquility part though. It separates the mage from magic and in so doing takes their emotions. If you don't have magic to remove, not sure how you'd get around that. And sending him to Lothering isn't going to work because it's completely destroyed. But those are easy problems to fix. I personally, would like to have an imprisonment option. That way, as a hero figure to many, he would be rescued by devout followers and perhaps become a problem quest in Awakening later on. Death is so final. And giving someone with his pension for evil all the powers of a Warden and the freedom to wander at will seems a terrible choice. I always kill him. But saving him (not as a Warden) to wreak havoc later would be cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagdalenaDwojniak Posted September 30, 2015 Author Share Posted September 30, 2015 Yknotu, thank you for your kind words! :) I wish the developers had heeded your advice and allow imprisonment of Loghain - as you are saying, it would give them so many storytelling opportunities. Why bother with Bann Esmerelle if you can have LOGHAIN's uprising? If the information on the wiki is correct, then the Rite of Tranquility severs one's connection to the Fade - the ability to dream, among others. Thus, only an elf, a human or a qunari could be made Tranquil, because dwarves don't dream. I figure it would be possible to make Loghain Tranquil without him having magical powers, because he is human, so he has some connection to the Fade. Lothering - if I recall correctly - tries to rebuild itself much, much later, but immediately after the Blight, it indeed cannot work. I was considering Amaranthine - what do you think? Or is there a similar location elsewhere you would suggest? With the limited options I have in the game, I chose not to Join him just as you did - too much danger to have him around with Warden powers. But in the commission I am working on, this third option will be present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosvitacousland Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 This sounds very interesting. (By the way, Riordan could have choosen every other man or woman to become a grey warden. He didn't really need to take Loghain! - right of consription -) Nevertheless in my opinion Loghain had to be punished with death penalty. In a medivial world this accumulation of crimes couldn't be atoned for by a little bit of jail... These are his felonies: (And this list is not intended to be exhaustive!!!) - conspiracy- insubordiantion- desertion - high treason against... -- the king-- the successor to the throne-- the people of Ferelden-- Ferelden - regicide (due to forbearance)- attempted assassination on the successor to the throne (indirect perpatration/ at least incitement)- usurpation of the throne- murder (joint tortfeasor of Arl Howe)-- of several persons, especially the teryn of Highever and the teryna- mass murder (of many soldiers and grey wardens, espacially their commandant, Duncan)- attempted murder (e.g. of the grey warden and his followers) - attempted poison murder (of Arl Eamon)- human trafficking/ slave trade- torture- calumny/ defamation of character (to the grey wardens) - coercion- forbidden wizardry Alistair for his part hasn't killed Loghain - let alone murdered him. But he has put Loghain to death ("gerichtet"). First of all this has been an ordeal by battle - a duel to the death, and Alistair won the day. Furthermore as the rightful king Alistair has been the top judge ("Oberster Gerichtsherr") of Ferelden. As a result by right Alistair could decide the verdict and enforce himself, too. So this only had been an act of justice. It had been no personal revenge campaign. In fact, it has been Alistair's right and duty to let justice(!) prevail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagdalenaDwojniak Posted October 24, 2015 Author Share Posted October 24, 2015 What you are saying is incredibly interesting, Rosvita. Indeed, Loghain has committed many grievous crimes and deserves punishment (I would still prefer to put him to good use to the crown instead of his death, even if it would be considered normal by medieval beliefs). In fact, if some moderator could be so kind and move this thread to an appropriate subforum (DAO Spoilers?), I would be very glad to continue this brainstorming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thandal Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 Topic moved by request of the OP. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagdalenaDwojniak Posted October 25, 2015 Author Share Posted October 25, 2015 (edited) Topic moved by request of the OP. :thumbsup: Thank you a lot, Thandal. I will edit the first post to be more about the discussion itself. EDIT: I think it works better now. My commissioner wants this option in the piece, so I should have more information soon. All ideas welcome. Edited October 25, 2015 by MagdalenaDwojniak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosvitacousland Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Hi Magdalena, I hope you don't mean this ironical. The point is, many people say something like 'Well - yes, Loghain has committed some or even many crimes, BUT...' (For this reason I made a long, long list about his crimes as juridical as possible - to reveal the dimension of his betrayal.) Then normally follows something about political realist or pragmatist, just to relativise his guilt and to make his atrocities appear harmless. Let me get this straight: nowadays in real life I am completely and unconditionally against the death penalty. But as I pointed at before, in a medivial world other rules are valid. So in my opinion the real central point is the notion of atonement! The peace under law requieres Loghains death and execution. Everything else would damage the legal order, the sense of justice of all people (Fereldans in game, not us gamers), which think just and equitable. Loghain may be a tactician as brillant and cunning as no one else (I've read The Stolen Throne and The Calling), but his potential "user value" could never ever compensate the moralic damage in case of let him get away with his atrocities! In other words: his best use to the crown is his execution! Best regards rosvita P.S.: In addition, as Alistair said, the crown couldn't trust Loghain any longer, (nor could the wardens). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagdalenaDwojniak Posted October 30, 2015 Author Share Posted October 30, 2015 Hi, Rosvita, of course I'm not ironical. I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. The reality Ferelden is set in makes the option of execution natural (as horrible as it sounds, naturally). I do believe execution right in front of Anora's unnecessary, to say the least, and that the Warden might not be the most proper person to carry out the punishment (again, quasi-medieval laws as you correctly pointed out - it should be done by a ruler: the verdict, I mean, because there were dedicated executioners who were rather skilled in the matter). I really admire how politics-savvy you are. Do I sense affinity for social sciences? I admit I don't have access to the books you mentioned (only their summaries and some fragments), but I believe they may be showing how Loghain is slowly (?) consumed by hatred of Orlais to the point where he can no longer be trusted. What do you think? You've read them both. I'm very curious if they are more psychologically-oriented or mainly action-packed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosvitacousland Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Hi Magdalena, thank you for your kind words! Actually I know something about law, (in addition a little bit of history)... Concerning the books, I think they are not really action-packed. Actually malicious gossip has it, that they seem to be a little bit boring. First one about the endless escape and some fights, second one about the endless way through the deep ways... Attention - SPOILER of the books - : 1. The first one treats the rebellion against the orlaisian puppet ruler, "King" Meghren. It started with the act of treason by some thanes of Queen Moira (Maric's mother). At the age of eighteen poor Prince Maric had to see the murder of his mother. He killed one of the murderers in self-defence and escaped. During his flight he met Loghain, being already a kind of outlaw at this point of the story. The base of Loghain's bitter hatred is not the main subject of the story, because it's only topic of some conversation between Loghain and Maric, a kind of flashback, if you will. In other words: From the beginning Loghain's hate is as deep as it could be. (By the way, I can comprehend defenitily his feelings, because he had to watch his mother's rapes.) Relating to this, here is no kind of development during the whole story. That is really to bad. Actually there are four psycological lines in the book: - The development of the friendship between Maric and Loghain (At the beginning Loghain hated(!) Maric, because his royalist father sacrificed himself for the king and compelled Loghain, who seemed to be a kind of scout or ranger with a bow, to rescue Maric. But little by little Loghain falled for Maric's charms. By the way, this story all the time resemblances to a story of Alistair, because he closely resembles his father in character, sense of honour and espacially in charms...) - The development of Maric, being at the beginning a shier boy, becoming little by little a real king, including to take harsh decisions. - Another love interest for Maric, which sowed the seeds for the later love to Alistair's mother, because both have been (pretty) elves. But this one - not Alistair's mother - turned out to be an orlaisian traitor, Maric lost the battle of West Hills and many stalwarts. This female traitor bitterly regreted, but Loghain manipulated Maric to kill(!) his love. And Maric bitterly regreted, too. - The love triangle between Maric and Rowan (Cailan's mother) and Loghain(!): Maric's bespoken bride from the cradle loved him really, but first he saw it only as an political agreement. So he took his elfin mistress. Disapointed the queen-to-be seeked (succesful) solace by Loghain, who loved her. Perhaps one of the most interesting points is the meeting of Maric and Loghain with Flemeth(!) in the Kocari Wilds. She made some eye-opening prophecies. Some prediction concerned Loghain: If Maric held him nearby, he would betray him over and over and each time even worse! 2. I will write something about the second book next time. Best regards rosvita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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