spoiler "Loghain vs Thedas" case: the third option

[rosvitacousland]

After considering again, I think a punishment as a tranquil is - to cruel. Never thought, I would ever consider any punishment being too hard or too sore for this treator and arch villain Loghain. But I think an execution, short and sweet, would preserve his dignity and, maybe more importantly, it would preserve the dignity of his judges!

 

By the way, is it possible at all to make a non-mage a tranquil?

[Thandal]

<snip>

By the way, is it possible at all to make a non-mage a tranquil?

 

 

 

 

See DA: Inquisition, Cassandra, the Seekers, "Book of Secrets".

 

[MagdalenaDwojniak]

That's a rather peculiar point of view... Then again I was raised in a culture prohibiting capital punishment. It may make me less acceptant to such statements. Anyway to answer the question: the ritual cuts a person's connection to the Fade. In other words, humans, elves and qunari should be capable of undergoing it (even reversing as the case with Pharamond and the Seekers of Truth is). Being a mage means you can tap into the Fade and use that to cast. Still, every sentient being who is not a dwarf dreams - and this happens in the Fade. So with what Gaider says about the Tranquil, what we find in the codexes, relevant quests, when talking with Tranquil NPCs and so on, it is safe enough to assume it is possible. The key argument is how a Seeker is born.

 

According to the codexes on the Tranquil and the entire State of Tranquility, it preserves the mind, including free will and all memories, while removing emotions. It does not make a Tranquil less or more a person. They are simply different, akin to Klingons. The dialogue Owain offers a mage PC in DAO is one of the most poignant. There is nothing wrong with perceiving the world differently than the majority (plus what we call "normality" is just a circle of light around the fireplace). Read on SoT here: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Tranquil - it should clarify the point.

[rosvitacousland]

How peculiar? The game itself contains Loghain's execution and the execution of other persons.

 

By the way, I guess, I mentioned it before, that I am in RL totally and unconditional against the death penality, which is consistent with the law of my country; this is not really amazing, neither for your country nor for mine, because it's standard for european countries.

 

I only accepted it in game, because it should be a medieval world.

 

Remember Jowan, the mage who poisoned Arl Eamon: Jowan fled the ritual of tranquilizing, because he found it unbearable not to be able to love any longer. And as his mage friend I was able to relate to that point.

 

I am sure, even Loghain himself would consider his ending more merciful than a life as a tranquil. No free will for Loghain is cruel.

 

P.S.: Thank you for the link!

Edited December 19, 2015 by rosvitacousland

[rosvitacousland]

Thank you, Thandal! I don't yet know these ones.

[MagdalenaDwojniak]

You misunderstood. I find saying killing could be short and sweet beyond my (likely limited) comprehension :huh:. Plus the State of Tranquility does not take away free will. It just turns you into a completely rational person. Talk to Owain and see yourself. The Tranquil are like Klingons. They do have free will and take their own decisions. It is something entirely different.

 

By the way... The Grand Cleric denounces Loghain. Wonder about her opinion on how to punish him for preventing templars from serving their function.

 

I would wager a guess the reason for having just two outcomes for Loghain is BioWare running out of time. The option here would require the Circle to be preserved. Therefore players who invoked the Right of Annulment would be unable to go through with it. Either way it does benefit the order and the country in general. You are not effectively committing a quasi-regicide, Anora is forever indebted, you get Loghain's mind without his bias and Alistair doesn't turn on you by playing an offended kid and walking out on you despite Archie flying around. The Blight is the priority here, not anyone's personal opinions. Sad but true.

Edited December 20, 2015 by MagdalenaDwojniak

[rosvitacousland]

"Klingons"??? Are you maybe thinking of Vulcans?

 

I still believe, that the peace under law requires the execution of Loghain considering his lots of atrocities.

 

King Cailan himself decided to hang Arl Howe for murdering Teyrn Bryce and his family and for his annexation of Highever. If King Cailan due to any circumstances would have survived the battle of Ostagar, imagine, what he would have done to Loghain? Would you even King Cailan call an offended kid?

 

Furthermore I still believe, that Loghain himself would prefer to die, instead of becoming a tranquil. I don't know the tranquils so much, but due to the two romans of David Gaider, that I have read, I know Loghain.

 

For this reason I think of a fourth option: Let Loghain himself decide, wether he wants to die or to become a tranquil!

 

A quasi-regicide???????? Did I read rigth? No. NO WAY!!! Loghain is here the only regicide!

 

(Actually twice, if he gets the chance to, first murdering King Cailan and then at least trying to murder King Alistair.)

 

Loghain's regicide and his usurpation of the throne are the main causes for his execution. You CAN'T committ regicide against an usurper. Do you think, King Maric commited regicide against Meghren? To execute(!) (not to murder!) Loghain is no regicide and no "quasi-regicide", but nothing but justice!

 

By the way, concerning the priority I guess, that Loghain's abilities as a general are overvalued in this particular case. All you need against the Blight are Grey Wardens. And you only can replace Alistair. Seems to be an adverse change. As a result you don't have got more Grey Wardens. Riordan could have taken someone else instead of Loghain, just anyone.

[MagdalenaDwojniak]

 

 

"Klingons"??? Are you maybe thinking of Vulcans?

 

At first glance you might have thought about Vulcans (logic and composure above everything), but I actually related to Klingons in regard to how both Klingons and the Tranquil focus on a singular goal. In the case of the latter, it is whatever they are currently tasked with. In regard to the former, conquest of the universe. Maybe it is stretched, but the element of focusing on a singular goal with no attention to personal safety. Also, the way they are feared, but later accepted as valuable allies.

 

Your point about Vulcans is, naturally, correct as well, but here, I had something slightly different in mind.

 

 

 

King Cailan himself decided to hang Arl Howe for murdering Teyrn Bryce and his family and for his annexation of Highever.

 

Please show me the exact screenshot with the English quote. I only recall him telling a Cousland he would deal with Howe after the Blight has been quenched.

 

 

 

If King Cailan due to any circumstances would have survived the battle of Ostagar, imagine, what he would have done to Loghain?

 

Tricky. Loghain is his right hand and his father-in-law. Actually that move of Maric's was a bit short-sighted. It had traditional grounds, but didn't work out in the world of politics.

 

 

 

Would you even King Cailan call an offended kid?

 

I am lost in this sentence :sad:. Could you rephrase please?

 

 

 

Furthermore I still believe, that Loghain himself would prefer to die, instead of becoming a tranquil. I don't know the tranquils so much, but due to the two romans of David Gaider, that I have read, I know Loghain.

 

For this reason I think of a fourth option: Let Loghain himself decide, wether he wants to die or to become a tranquil!

 

We don't always get what we like :devil:. In this case, in the literary work, I need a different portrayal of both Loghain and Anora. The entire Landsmeet section will be heavily expanded as the way it is now, it's just too gamey. Readers who hate Loghain will be unable to think he escaped justice. His fans (?) will have no right to whine he's dead. Those who dislike Anora will have her in a very vulnerable moment. You see a strong woman saving the only man she always loved and admired - even though he is NOT grateful for that. People who like/respect her will finally have a chance to experience a situation of her real gratitude without losing Alistair. All will get tough choices of real life. No black. No white. Always different kinds of shadows.

 

 

 

A quasi-regicide???????? Did I read rigth? No. NO WAY!!! Loghain is here the only regicide!

 

(Actually twice, if he gets the chance to, first murdering King Cailan and then at least trying to murder King Alistair.)

 

Quasi-regicide to reflect the fact that despite his illegitimate means of achieving power, during the Landsmeet, you deal with the Regent - sad but true. He did not murder Cailan: he collectively deserted the troops after coming up with a completely absurd strategy, which Cai swallowed (again he would have made a good soldier, but not a commander). Not murder per se, but the effects are in place.

 

I honestly don't recall an epilogue with Loghain doing anything to Alistair after he was crowned. He did plot against Warden Alistair :down:. But after Al is chosen King, he is safe (unless he's killing Archie without the ritual, but then Loghain is always dead in that case). Good job, Warden :thumbsup:.

 

 

 

To execute(!) (not to murder!) Loghain is no regicide and no "quasi-regicide", but nothing but justice

 

Tell this to a Loghain apologist :devil:. The Warden's personal opinions sadly do not matter. My Warden may or may not agree with this, but there is a bigger picture that ties the hands.

 

 

 

By the way, concerning the priority I guess, that Loghain's abilities as a general are overvalued in this particular case. All you need against the Blight are Grey Wardens. And you only can replace Alistair. Seems to be an adverse change. As a result you don't have got more Grey Wardens. Riordan could have taken someone else instead of Loghain, just anyone.

 

Everybody must collaborate.

 

Loghain could have been put to use by working on how to evacuate the remaining citizens. He could have led the defense of the gates. Many possibilities for a "beautiful mind". The Wardens are needed to kill the Archdemon, but they need to actually get a chance to strike the killing blow. If they end up overrun, because the darkspawn take the city... game over. So a skilled general is precious. I don't like Loghain, but he has a function to perform.

 

Riordan's major fallout if I may was not using what little Archdemon blood + whatever else goes into the Joining cocktail on anyone else. Who would be my go-to choice for a Warden? Sten. He would be perfect. But honestly there were many options.

 

The problem is... Riordan was a plot device from the start. Not just SOME plot device, a regular Chekhov's Gunman and Mr Plot-Pusher. If he has the ingredients for Loghain's Joining, he can use them on anyone. But still, the storage in Denerim is reported to have been raided/relocated/destroyed. So where did he get them from? If he brought them from Orlais, shouldn't have his captors take them away? Still, even though he is in a cell, he is fully clad in armour, so... Sloppy captors. If he doesn't have the ingredients, it should mean putting Loghain through the Joining is impossible.

 

The blunt truth: he just wants to force you into a choice: gaping at Alistair's hilarious expression as Morrigan straddles him for the ritual or sacrificing someone. I can see BioWare's point, but it IS sloppy. In a story, I can't take such liberties. My readers won't take it lightly :happy:. Besides who says a recruit of a few days' "experience" is "appealing" enough to Urthemiel's soul? Should a completely fresh Warden be incompatible? Just brainstorming.

 

[Yknotu]

 

Furthermore I still believe, that Loghain himself would prefer to die, instead of becoming a tranquil.

 

For this reason I think of a fourth option: Let Loghain himself decide, wether he wants to die or to become a tranquil!

He's the bad guy. He's being held accountable for killing his King. Even if you have a shred of doubt on what really happened in Ostagar, especially after Solas tells you he saw it go both ways in the fade in Inquisition (oops, is that a spoiler?), his actions against the Wardens and his own daughter should be enough for at least imprisonment.

 

I don't believe tranquility should be an option. Loghain is the only one to benefit from that decision because he is left with no emotions and cannot regret or relive all the atrocities he took part in.

 

I don't like the Grey Warden choice because it rewards him with a hero's status (which is what our character is, and we've worked hard to get here!. Loghain sat in his comfy chair and ordered the deaths of thousands, even among his own nobility. I would rather have chosen death or imprisonment. That way, should the player choose imprisonment, the modders could have come up with something to bring him back in the future in all his evil splendor for an ultimate showdown instead of an execution!

 

[MagdalenaDwojniak]

 

 

I don't believe tranquility should be an option. Logain is the only one to benefit from that decision because he is left with no emotions and cannot regret or relive all the atrocities he took part in.

 

That's a valid point, but how to get Anora's gratitude without Al getting pissed off otherwise? Imprisonment means the people have to sponsor him forever without getting anything back (I doubt Loghain would start collaborating after a week or two in a comfy tower). There is the threat of him committing suicide and showing you the midle finger this way. And Fereldan guards are stupid even for an RPG :down:. True, Loghain would get noticeably less nightmares (meaning none, although a Tranquil still possesses ethics, so he could at least regret committing the thing upon consideration it led to nothing good), but it's not about making Loghain happy. It's about finding an ending that protects Ferelden, Al and the order from slander and worse (like coups).

 

I don't like the Grey Warden choice because it rewards him with a hero's status (which is what our character is, and we've worked hard to get here!. Logain sat in his comfy chair and ordered the deaths of thousands, even among his own nobility. I would rather have chosen death or imprisonment. That way, should the player chose imprisonment, the modders could have come up with something to bring him back in the future in all his evil splendor for an ultimate showdown instead of an execution!

 

Exactly! I could not just make him a Warden (besides all reasons against it). Regardless of whether he survives or perishes, he is still branded a hero. And people should remember betrayal is a horrible kind of evil.

Edited December 21, 2015 by MagdalenaDwojniak