spoiler "Loghain vs Thedas" case: the third option

[Yknotu]

Exactly! I could not just make him a Warden (besides all reasons against it). Regardless of whether he survives or perishes, he is still branded a hero. And people should remember betrayal is a horrible kind of evil.

 

 

 

And, since he is still thought a hero to many, even in the Inquisition (i.e. Threnn), it could have been possible to have him gather a force against us. But, it is what it is. So I'll just settle for death and call it a day. One day, maybe I'll play through and have my character really be a rotten, mean guy, then making Loghain a Warden won't seem like a stretch.

[MagdalenaDwojniak]

Exactly. He could still rebel. There is a lot of possibilities like that. Perhaps if Loghain survives, he leads the plot against the Warden-Commander instead of Bann Esmerelle?

[mcgoy]

This is rather long because I'm overly verbose, and because I've been thinking about response to this thread for a while. Loghain's fate, to me, is dependent on the media (game or literary) that is being used.

Game/DAO: In DAO, the Main Antagonist (also know as the 'Big Bad') is the Archdemon. Although a lot of players wanted 'closure' or more options or whatever, Loghain was a subplot associated with making it a challenge for the GW to gather armies to take on the Archdemon/Blight. I know, you are gasping in horror, but the game was about defeating the Archdemon; not about who should be made the ruler of Ferelden. Within the GAME, Riordon and his offer to make Loghain a GW is a clear plot device, as was mentioned earlier. There is only one potion to turn someone into a GW. It was only offered to Loghain. If you refuse to have Loghain go through the Ritual to become a GW, Riordon doesn't suggest using it for anyone else.

Personally, I see why Bioware set it up this way. The Landsmeet was the final obstacle before the final battle with the Archdemon. The game needed to 'move on', not spend half an hour deciding Loghain's fate. There are two options:
--- kill Loghain
--- do not kill Loghain (make a GW)
Because this is a game, programming in all of the alternatives associated with 'do not kill Loghain' (and don't make him a GW) would not have been an efficient use of programming resources.

 

Modding an Alternative - if it makes the player happy, but to me it changes too many Core resources and the other NPCs are going to react as if one of the two Bioware options was selected.

 

 

Literary work: A book/story set in Ferelden during the Blight has a lot more options, but has to settle for only ONE fate for Loghain. But more logical fates can be considered and each alternative doesn't need to be written, just the one that is considered 'best'.

--- live and have freedom
--- live imprisoned
--- die in dual with GW
--- die through execution

The 'live and have freedom' option is incredibly illogical. Although the GWs don't have long lives, they are free while they are alive. Letting Loghain become a GW gives him another chance to have power even if it is 'only' within the GW hierarchy. This is hardly a punishment. Regardless of opinions about Ostagar, Loghain tried to rule the country while there was a reigning queen (Anora). Trying to take over a country is considered a BAD thing regardless of specific actions or inaction in Ostagar. He did not act as a counselor for Anora or to support her with the Ferelden army. He acted as ruler, with Anora as a figurehead at best. Alistair was right, making Loghain a GW isn't a punishment. And he DID commit crimes so slapping him on the wrist and saying 'naughty, naughty' isn't an option either (i.e. if he isn't made a GW)

Die in duel with the GW (or Alistair). In Real Life, it is hard to 'mostly kill' someone and stop when they only have 1 hit point left so that you can decide their fate. Fighting with the weapons that they have in DAO, it is most likely that Loghain would have been killed. This is an easy solution, but not necessarily the 'best' solution. Loghain might have preferred dying during the duel with the GW or Alistair; to a certain extent, he might feel that he fought an opponent more worthy than he had believed and lost.

Die through execution. This would allow all of the various speeches and the duel could have been 'to first blood' rather than to the death. Granted it takes a LOT more work to get first blood when an opponent is wearing massive armor, but it could be done. After the duel, he could receive the death sentence or live imprisoned.

Live Imprisoned. This is actually one of the more logical choices, but has some dangers as well. If Anora becomes Queen (with or without Alistair), it is a career limiting move to kill her father. She probably likes him and the person who killed him is likely to spend an extended period of time on her "people I don't like and will send on life threatening missions at the drop of a hat" list. To keep Anora 'happy', imprisoning Loghain might be a good alternative. But there are dangers. Up until the beginning of DAO, General Loghain was a well known hero. The majority of Ferelden citizens may still consider him a hero because they will not be aware of the actions that led to his imprisonment. General Loghain was also known for his ability as a tactician. The army remains loyal (as far as I saw) to General Loghain. All of these conditions make an attempted rescue/escape an ever present danger. As the father of the Queen, he can't be thrown into the deepest dungeon, but he does have to be imprisoned somewhere that he can not escape from. I would consider Loghain Lawful Evil - being Lawful means that he might accept exile and live by very stringent conditions on not interfering with Ferelden ever again. An author might be able to make the argument that with his given word, his 'imprisonment' doesn't need to be onerous. I consider some form of imprisonment a valid form of punishment.

 

Tranquil - Thought I would throw this one in since it was discussed. Having no emotions doesn't mean that he wouldn't act against the throne in the future. If logic tells him that Alistair and/or Anora aren't ruling Ferelden wisely (by his definition), he could easily decide that they should be removed from power. Being made Tranquil wouldn't change his ability as a tactician so he would still be capable of planning/executing a coup.

An author would have to decide which fate awaits Loghain and then make sure that there aren't any logic errors or obvious plot devices like Riordan's ONE potion for the GW Ritual. My PERSONAL opinion is that I wouldn't include Riordan's offer to make Loghain a GW in any literary work or would make it a 'non starter' as an option. Riordan is needed to explain why a GW has to take the final blow and the results of being the GW who kills an Archdemon. Riordan, as the senior GW, attempting to kill the Archdemon is also an interesting event since the GW & Alistair can hope that he will succeed.

(Note: for the person, I don't remember whom, who said that Riordan was wearing armor, no, he wasn't. Riordan knocked out/killed the guard and took his armor. You can see Riordan's "without armor" arm come through the bars when he attacks the guard. If I remember correctly, you can see the guard in the background.)

I need to get a life so that I don't think about these kinds of things when I'm not at my home computer where I have access to Nexus. :laugh:

[rosvitacousland]

I still think, Loghain has to die for his atrocities. The best way would be during the dual.

 

The classic ordeal by battle is a life and death fight and not a fight to first blood like some exhibition figth during the Tornei. By the way, when Loghain wins the dual at the Landsmeet he for his part doesn't hesitate not a moment to kill his enemy and nobody interrupts him.

[MagdalenaDwojniak]

I suggest everyone reads mcgoy's post <a href="http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/2772329-loghain-vs-thedas-case-the-third-option/page-5&do=findComment&comment=32395140">here</a>: it explains the difference between constructing a plot for a game and for a literary work incredibly well. The single line that sums it up is:

 

Loghain's fate, to me, is dependent on the media (game or literary) that is being used.

In the game, you want to beat the Archdemon. Loghain is NOT the archenemy. He also is not the right hand of the Archdemon. There is a very important split between a mortal foe like Loghain and the supernatural threat the Archdemon is. The entire era of the DAO, hey, not just DAO, the entire franchise is Dragon Age, not Loghain/Meredith/Solas Age or something like that. BioWare added Loghain to push the stakes a bit up. But the main objective is fighting the Blight, not fighting Loghain. He is just a stepping stone to uniting the country in order to fight the Blight. Dealing with Mac Tir is just to ensure the PC has the full control over the army (s)he's gathered through all the quests before the Landsmeet. Moreover, the Landsmeet sequence is the last stage when roleplaying is truly visible. After it, bar from the important decision of whether Alistair/Loghain/m!GW does the ritual with Morrigan or not, the choices you make have only minor consequences. A genre-savvy player seeing the "get Loghain, lose Alistair/keep Alistair, kill Loghain" fork instantly recognises something will be required of a male Warden. After the Landsmeet, the game is primarily a Definitely Final Dungeon (for less genre-savvy folks: tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheVeryDefinitelyFinalDungeon). You go to the besieged Denerim and then all your decisions made thorought the game just kind of... play themselves out. You go clear the subsequent areas of the capital, Riordan makes his leap of faith and turns into goo, your remaining party members hold the gates, Archie dies, one way or the other. It suddenly gets incredibly linear. It is actually a smart way of utilising the resources the developers have to program: instead of suddenly adding you seven companion slots to avoid the hugely immersion-breaking situation of "I Pick Three Best Buddies/The Most Efficient Companions, The Others Sit on Their Posteriors in Camp While Cheering for Our Fantastic Four", they force you to pick the usual three and the rest can only use the tactics you (should have) set them. There is no GW to instruct them what to do. They take on a life and will of their own in a sense. Whatever you do from here, it is just a prelude to the battle with the Archdemon. You've come full circle: your being a Warden started with the dream of Archie, then it (possibly) ends with a face-to-face encounter. Loghain and his fate quickly loses importance, because no matter what, you ALWAYS end up with at least one male Warden required to woohoo with Morrigan, thus giving the player a chance of preserving the Warden. No matter how whiny Alistair may get if you do not get along, he will not desert you. He WILL do that for a very petty reason if you defy him at the Landsmeet, but you will get Loghain as compensation and at this point you simply need a male Warden to be able to consider Morrigan's proposition (this is to avoid being cut off this quest if your GW is female). Thus, your real goal is getting to the Definitely Final Dungeon. The Landsmeet is your Disc One Final Dungeon.

Loghain is needed to give your GW a drive even if they did not want to join the order. If you decide to play a vindictive or just plainly Blight-uncaring character, Loghain is your ticket to care. Without him, there would not be as much roleplaying pressure. An unwilling Warden could contemplate running away, hoping (s)he dies before the Blight consumes whatever country (s)he flees to. Loghain changes the dynamics. He gives you an additional drive. Even if you play an unwilling Warden, you most likely want to clear your name and get the "old man sitting on the throne" to change his tune. But he is NOT the game's main baddie. He adds more emotion and realism to the game. The best lies are made from carefully-picked (half)truths. You know there are no Archdemons, so a skilled author throws in some more worldly threat, a skilled general-turned-tyrant, to help you develop enough immersion to get started.

The forked decision path of the Landsmeet is directly related to Aarseth's theory of cybertext and ergodic literature in general that mcgoy described is the only option for a game that makes sense (I suppose Aarseth and his contribution need no introduction). I will admit again that option is quite flawed in execution (see Riordan and his now-you-see-me Joining cocktail), but it is the only viable way of handling the problem. Actually, the problem with Riordan and his offer of Joining Loghain is most likely an artifact left from the times BioWare wanted the companions to develop the Taint over time. The idea was to force the player into Joining them during the Landsmeet. However, this was cut out due to time constraints and, even more importantly, grave difficulties in implementing this. Riordan's offer stayed, but now only applied to Loghain. You do not notice this if you do not accept Loghain's surrender, but if you do, the grave immersion failure upon realising this loop is quite bitter. Still... let me repeat mcgoy's excellently-plain explanation of this, she is much better in explaining this to you than I am:

 

Within the GAME, Riordon and his offer to make Loghain a GW is a clear plot device, as was mentioned earlier. There is only one potion to turn someone into a GW. It was only offered to Loghain. If you refuse to have Loghain go through the Ritual to become a GW, Riordon doesn't suggest using it for anyone else.

You can say that the sensible solution would be allowing Loghain to join the party (to have a backup Warden to sense the darkspawn, if nothing else - at this point you DO NOT know how soon the final battle occurs, so the assumption he will develop his darkspawn meter in time to at least be useful in "sniffing" the horde out is not flawed) with Alistair at your side. But then the stress of deciding whether Morrigan possibly gets a weird baby with great powers or one of the Wardens dies striking the final blow to Archie would be gone then. You would have three GWs apart from your PC: Alistair, Riordan and Loghain. If you like Alistair and have much against Loghain, you can let him die with Archie and do not care further. If Al annoys you, let him strike Archie down or force him to woohoo with Morrigan. There are many possibilities, but they inevitably lack the tough choice aspect the dark ritual is supposed to convey (okay, more for Al romancers - if you are friends with Al and/or Morrigan, and do not fear the would-be Kieran, choosing the dark ritual is hardly a difficult choice and the whole convincing part is pretty hilarious). This is why you need to pick Loghain OR Alistair, not keep both. Naturally losing both is out of question as this would effectively mean a death sentence for a female GW or a male GW who refuses Morrigan's ritual, but doesn't want to die either. If you could Join more people, Morrigan would have many more subjects for her ritual (some most likely way more agreeable). The stakes would drop. It is hardly logical, but this is how your emotional perception of this branch of DAO works.

Basically the fact you can only pick one of two forks of this quest path is a mix of convenience (you want to limit the amount of programming as much as possible) and keeping you sufficiently high on tension created by the whole situation, obsessing over what to do regarding the ritual.

Now a literary work is more complicated. As this particular case is not an example of ergodic literature, it is not like the reader picks whatever option makes most sense to them. I have to do this for them - and this obliges me to consider many more aspects than BioWare had to. The medium is simply that different. Also, I have a very defined GW and party dynamics. She is a calculating one, by this time not a callow player on the area of diplomacy and politics. This means I must blow the Landsmeet sequence into something that doesn't scream "Archdemon This Way". Remember the characters do not know or expect Archie to swoop down on Denerim immediately. They believe the army will now have to march to whichever location the scouts that Riordan mentions as scouting. The player suspects the Landsmeet is a beginning of the end. The GW and her crew's members do not. I need to stick to this, otherwise it breaks immersion. Bearing this in mind, let's review the branches mcgoy provided.

LIVE AND HAVE FREEDOM. Incredibly stupid. It also shows unwanted leniency of the Wardens. People can follow a tyrant, a wretch, a madman, but never a weakling. Besides it just doesn't make sense. You have Ostagar, being hounded for about a year, politically-motivated crimes against civilians (the Alienage, Howe's dungeons blahblahblah), effectively performing a coup against the proper queen. If Loghain is not punished, MEANINGFULLY punished, the reader achieves no catharsis. So this is crossed from our list.

DIE THROUGH EXECUTION. I do not want this, because my intention is to explore Anora's personality and motivations more. I am sick of works portraying her in a cartoonishly-negative light or turning her into a shrinking violet. Executing Loghain cannot endear Anora to either the GW or the Wardens in general, and we are supposed to keep the order's good name in mind as they are the only defense against a Blight. So this gets crossed out as well.

DIE IN A DUEL WITH THE GW. This could happen. As mcgoy pointed out, "killing somebody just so" is hardly possible in real life, and I strive towards as much realism as possible. My readers are not fools; they expect much thought in every aspect of the work.

Loghain is a sword-and-shield warrior wearing massive plate armour. This is incredibly cumbersome. He is also in his fifties at the very least; a rogue or a mage could possibly exhaust him to the point of surrendering just by evading his attacks for a sufficiently long time. At the same time, any blow against such armour can inflict very nasty crushed injuries. Even as little as TRIPPING at an unfortunate angle while wearing several kilograms of steel can lead into serious problems. Mind you, this applies to any character wearing such armour. Dying of injuries while having surrendered and received the GW's relative mercy is an option that kills two birds with one stone: Anora doesn't (or rather should not THAT MUCH) view the GW as her father's killer and Alistair lacks a reason to whine, because Loghain is dead. This, however, holds the cavity of falling into cliches - a poignant deathbed speech that ends exactly after the character has said everything they wanted to share with the world and such. I cringe at those and cannot really capture them without resorting to sarcasm and absurd, so it is not a good option. Knowing your weaknesses is a crucial thing. While talking with mcgoy, I mentioned that maybe, just maybe, I could have an attempt at healing him, with Loghain refusing and just finishing himself. It still KIND OF allows Anora's gratitude, because there were attempts to spare her father made by the GW. Still, upon some more consideration, I decided against it. I am going to have enough gore beforehand and afterwards, better not to overdose it. Plus, it doesn't really fit my needs as I have a certain scenario in my head I am absolutely set on using that involves Alistair AND Loghain during the final battle. So this goes out.

To sum things up, in order to ensure I can explore Anora as a more complex character, marry her off to Alistair to protect him, the order and Ferelden (this also allows me to play around what happens after Archie's death, because I find the entire rebuilding process interesting, and it just calls for Anora), and keep Al through the entire work, I need to find a way to avoid killing Loghain while making sure Al cannot throw his childish tantrum about accepting his surrender. This leaves us with...

LIVE IMPRISONED. This assumes Loghain gets a chance to surrender and be accepted while punished. It is tricky, but the single viable option for my work. The Tranquil scenario is, in fact, a variant of this. The longer I obsess over this, the more I lean towards leaving it out while using this as the other proposal in a "bad cop, good cop" manipulation. Loghain initially protests, Anora discards his screeching for an execution instead of living on the leash, he continues to shriek and is finally shut up with a suggestion becoming a Tranquil as a different possibility. Okay, this is settled. Now how do we preserve Mac Tir to allow this?

There is a simple but important question to be asked. All in all, who truly has the ability to exhaust Loghain without killing him "by accident"? A rogue or a mage. But the duel is a Warden affair, so only the GW or Alistair can participate, logic-wise. I would even go farther than this. There are two prerequisites for the champion. It has to be a Warden, and it should be the one that is the leader. So... not Alistair (mind you, this automatically solves the problem of Al acting OOC and killing Loghain on the spot against reason - this is a welcome out for me, in fact). Fortunately the GW used in the work is not a warrior, but a mage with rogue skills, so she can easily use just some not-that-tricky, but nonetheless cunning tactics to exhaust Loghain to the point of surrendering. Run in circles, suck his energy out with entropic spells, throw in a small spark of lightning, an occasional pommel strike and just TIME. There are many battles that were won by this tactic. And it makes more sense than anything else. In a game, kiting an enemy holds the possibility of the foe regaining health and/or stamina. This does not function like that in real life. Quite the opposite. The GW we are discussing has certain advantages: she is naturally younger than Loghain, wearing very light armour, and focusing on evading the attacks to keep him alive for Anora's sake rather than an aging warrior stuffed into massive armour. This helps A LOT. Small fire cantrips just to raise temperature could mimic Grunwald 1410, for one. Then it is a matter of evading his attacks for long enough to make him exhausted (it will come earlier if it is hot enough to accelerate sweating) and then systematically sucking at his energy until he yields. It naturally avoids the problem of flesh wounds. Loghain doesn't suffer a real cut. Perhaps even no blood comes out. He is just exhausted and finally realises she can still hold her ground while he breaks down. Loghain is not stupid; he can see a worthy opponent. It is canon. So this approach lets me pull off keeping him alive in a decently-convincing manner. Here, I can discuss the possible outcomes and ultimately settle for imprisonment while serving the crown.

What one must bear in mind: every scenario with Loghain carries some potential for things going awry. Life imprisonment is worth the risks, plot-wise. It allows a writer to explore very tense moments for both the party, with Alistair, among others, and Loghain.

Now another brilliant quote from mcgoy:

 

An author would have to decide which fate awaits Loghain and then make sure that there aren't any logic errors or obvious plot devices like Riordan's ONE potion for the GW Ritual. My PERSONAL opinion is that I wouldn't include Riordan's offer to make Loghain a GW in any literary work or would make it a 'non starter' as an option. Riordan is needed to explain why a GW has to take the final blow and the results of being the GW who kills an Archdemon. Riordan, as the senior GW, attempting to kill the Archdemon is also an interesting event since the GW & Alistair can hope that he will succeed.

We have Riordan to be dealt with. I am keeping Loghain alive, so he IS going to make the suggestion. This is actually needed to give some insight into what a responsible Warden should do, but here it is irrelevant. So, the readers will find out Riordan has a way to make at least one Warden extra. Now, with the proposition turned down, what happens to the vial (let's say he has already had the thing on himself, for the thread's simplicity alone)?

There are two sensible options.

1. I pick some secondary character. Cauthrien would make sense, but then again, this effectively means killing her off. And she can be of use to me yet, say, leading one of the parties of defenders, so I would rather not. Out of party members, Sten would make a perfect GW, but I can't do this to him as there is the thing of his belonging to the Qun. He would enter a state of split callings and it is canon he becomes the next arishok. And I would have to kill him off, which is a massive no-no for obvious reasons (Sten's awesome factor being just one of them :laugh:). I am leaving him to lead the defense of the gates anyway. Oghren has what is takes to be a non-leader Warden, to the bottom of it, but this clashes with Awakening canon (and the epilogue of DAO in which he becomes a general in Fereldan army, which I intend to use). So nope. I would probably put Ser Bryant through the Joining, and subsequently kill him off. Well. I quite like the guy, but he is sufficiently irrelevant to work. I would gladly use Ser Perth, because he has prerequisites to become a Warden (and I dislike him, so it would be hardly a loss), but I have to make sure he doesn't show up anywhere after the Landsmeet. I believe he doesn't, but if I am wrong, correct me.

2. I mention the presence of the necessary ingredients, but something prevents their use. The simplest would be getting the vial smashed somehow. But it is SLOPPY! So I guess I will just have Perth die during the Joining (this is if we do not see him after doing everything in Redcliffe - if not, I suppose I will settle for poor Bryant). Not too much of a stretch in comparison to what I gain (the preservation of immersion Riordan otherwise breaks epicly).

 

I still think, Loghain has to die for his atrocities. The best way would be during the dual.

The classic ordeal by battle is a life and death fight and not a fight to first blood like some exhibition figth during the Tornei. By the way, when Loghain wins the dual at the Landsmeet he for his part doesn't hesitate not a moment to kill his enemy and nobody interrupts him.

Again, while my personal opinion is that accepting Loghain's surrender (regardless of what you pick next) is the correct way to solve the problem, it does not matter; what is important is that we are not discussing what Loghain would do. This is not a tourney. It also isn't a battle. Loghain's actions if the GW loses aren't the point, because this is not going to happen. It is not a story of some showdown between Loghain and the GW, but a tale of how really misfit and ill-equipped people react to extreme circumstances and deal with the problem that is bigger than each of them individually. This is one of the reasons behind the ridiculous amount of psychological studies I am forced to do. It is not heroic fantasy. In order not to delve deeper into this, I will stop here by saying that this particular GW spares Loghain and that's it. The curious thing is how she does it. And this is what this thread is for, because it turns out there are many who thought the Landsmeet was too simplified.

The thread is specifically aiming at coming to a conclusion regarding a very specific literary work. So, while I appreciate your concern, this is not a valid point here. I have well moved past the "keep or kill" stage, now I am delving into the very specifics. And all participants' contribution is greatly treasured. I will not forget to - unless you state you do not want it - thank you in the credits :). There is still a lot of work before me. At over two hundred pages, I am still at more or less 4/7 of the main storyline. Writing is tough business, trust me, guys.

[rosvitacousland]

Hi Magdalena,

 

I've just finished my reading of the third Dragon Age book by David Gaider "Asunder" and I learnt - surprise, surprise -, that the rite of the appeasement IS reversible. For that reason alone, myself I don't think, that your third option for Loghain would work...

 

Regards

 

rosvita

[Thandal]

@rosvitacousland: Not sure which English word you meant to use.

 

Appease: Make concessions to an aggressor in order to keep the peace.

Annul: Make void. Undo. Remove a condition so as to restore a former state.

Tranquil: Peaceful. Still. Calm.

 

In the case of the Circles of Thedas, the "Right of Annulment" pertains to the Templars' control of Mages.

 

From the BioWare official forums:

David Gaider
Posted 06 April 2011 - 05:12 AM
BioWare Employees
4,514 posts

It's "Right of Annulment"... as in the templars possess the right to annul a Circle when it gets out of hand. I wasn't aware it was inconsistent, but it's easy even for us to get confused

 

It doesn't get much more authoritative than that!

 

The "Rite of Tranquility", on the other hand, the removal of the ability to manipulate the Fade (and incidentally, of the ability to feel any emotions at all) is at least somewhat reversible. How completely and successfully is unclear. Although it is obviously highly successful in certain specific cases (see "Seekers".)

 

BTW: "rite" means a ritual or ceremony, and "right" means the moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way. So it's "Right of Annulment", but it's "Rite of Tranquility". :cool:

[mcgoy]

rosvita, I'm sorry, but this is about to get into English grammar and words that would never be used in conversational English :D

 

Thandal, The templars have the Right to perform the Ritual associated with Annulment, but the Ritual itself would be considered the Rite of Annulment. Greagoir was waiting for the Rite of Annulment since the he already had the Right to perform the ritual.

 

Rite of Annulment is in a Codex entry titled "The history of the Rite of Annulment"

 

And finally, having the Right of Annulment does nothing to the mages if the templar doesn't have the Rite of Annulment so that he/she knows how to perform the ritual (used 17 times per the codex entry).

 

Which word is correct depends on the usage.

[MagdalenaDwojniak]

Hi Magdalena,

 

I've just finished my reading of the third Dragon Age book by David Gaider "Asunder" and I learnt - surprise, surprise -, that the rite of the appeasement IS reversible. For that reason alone, myself I don't think, that your third option for Loghain would work...

 

Regards

 

rosvita

 

Obviously, it is, since it is how the Seekers of Truth are created, but it is not common knowledge. Regardless, I have already picked a solution to my work, so the entire discussion is pretty void :ermm:... Why are you guys still replying?

 

@rosvitacousland: Not sure which English word you meant to use.

 

Appease: Make concessions to an aggressor in order to keep the peace.

Annul: Make void. Undo. Remove a condition so as to restore a former state.

Tranquil: Peaceful. Still. Calm.

 

In the case of the Circles of Thedas, the "Right of Annulment" pertains to the Templars' control of Mages.

 

From the BioWare official forums:

David Gaider

Posted 06 April 2011 - 05:12 AM

BioWare Employees

4,514 posts

 

It's "Right of Annulment"... as in the templars possess the right to annul a Circle when it gets out of hand. I wasn't aware it was inconsistent, but it's easy even for us to get confused

 

It doesn't get much more authoritative than that!

 

The "Rite of Tranquility", on the other hand, the removal of the ability to manipulate the Fade (and incidentally, of the ability to feel any emotions at all) is at least somewhat reversible. How completely and successfully is unclear. Although it is obviously highly successful in certain specific cases (see "Seekers".)

 

BTW: "rite" means a ritual or ceremony, and "right" means the moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way. So it's "Right of Annulment", but it's "Rite of Tranquility". :cool:

 

Ditto. From what I gather Rosvita is just starting to learn English, it isn't her first language, so it's excusable. Good you highlighted it for her though. I bet she appreciates all help!

 

rosvita, I'm sorry, but this is about to get into English grammar and words that would never be used in conversational English :D

 

Thandal, The templars have the Right to perform the Ritual associated with Annulment, but the Ritual itself would be considered the Rite of Annulment. Greagoir was waiting for the Rite of Annulment since the he already had the Right to perform the ritual.

 

Rite of Annulment is in a Codex entry titled "The history of the Rite of Annulment"

 

And finally, having the Right of Annulment does nothing to the mages if the templar doesn't have the Rite of Annulment so that he/she knows how to perform the ritual (used 17 times per the codex entry).

 

Which word is correct depends on the usage.

 

Ditto again. You could not have possibly been clearer. Kudos, Anne :thumbsup:.

 

* * *

 

Now, shall we refrain from performing Ashk-Ente on me :happy:?

[rosvitacousland]

Hi Thandal,

 

first of all, thank you for your kind hints!

 

Nevertheless, as I remember I didn't use the word "annul" nor the "Right of Annulment".

 

I actually mean "rite" as I wrote.

 

(It's from the Latin word "ritus", which we use original in German, too, as "Ritus" for some ceremony, and I would never mix up "rite" with "right", because "right" is a very current expression; but thank you for your kind explanation). I only didn't remember the expression "tranquility".

 

And now back on topic:

 

During the story "Asunder" Wynne and her son, who was a mage, too, met a mage, less or more a friend of Wynne, who had gone through the rite of tranquility, but he was able to manipulate the Fade again. All parties, the templars, the seekers, the Divine had been surprised about! It seemed to be a kind of revolution. The Lord-seeker himself wanted the templars to kill the people who knew about this possibility. By the way, the poor mage should go through the rite a second time (and he didn't want to do), but he had been murdered before.

 

I never liked the option to let Loghain go through this rite instead of dying for his crimes. Now knowing that the effect could be revised I think this more than ever.

 

Regards

 

rosvita