RurikNiall Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 *haven't been around since last year* ...I appear to have missed something. :blink: Valve and Bethesda got greedy, the community came down on them like the fist of an angry god, a few modders that fell for their scam got caught in the crossfire, Valve and Bethesda surrendered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WightMage Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 *haven't been around since last year* ...I appear to have missed something. :blink: "Oh, it's just a little war..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robberfox Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 (edited) Difference is that no one was forcing people to pay for mods. You don't want to pay? Don't pay and use an alternative mod. Having choices is a good thing. Well not really, some mods are one of a kind and you can't just go find a different one. There's only one SkyUI, one Inigo, one Immersive Armors, one Flora Overhaul. You won't be able to find replacements for a lot of great mods, and it'd suck if you had to settle for mods that might be vastly inferior.The best mods have always been unique, but that doesn't mean you have some inherent right to them. Those mods are unique and there's no option now, but if they were not free there's a very reasonable chance that alternatives would be created maybe even by you. I just came up with something to explain my view of this situation over on the official forums based on this quote: "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." Maimonides. Chesko, Arthmoor, and the SkyUI team have always shared freely with the community. They have been master fishermen and mentors to others. They said that they would gladly continue help people learn to fish but those who just wanted to eat what had already been caught would have to pay a little. The community demanded their usual free daily catch of fish and have gotten it for now. I understand that it's easier to just eat the free fish someone else caught, but to keep expecting them to fish for you every day is definitely entitlement. What is more valuable to the community the knowledge of how to construct mods or the mods themselves? Choose wisely because in the longer term you could end up with neither. I have zero 3D modeling experience, my scripting knowledge is very limited, and even if I learned and practiced for a very long time, I doubt I would be able to recreate or make something as good as a lot of the mods I use that are just simply more complicated and beyond my capabilities. The idea that 'if you want a mod just make it' is really like 'if you don't like this computer just go make your own'. Modding is a fairly technical thing, and not everyone has the ability or tools to do it as well as others. Or the time or the energy or the drive.And hey, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not a tool most people will need in their daily lives, and if they just want to download something they can enjoy, I see no reason to shame them for not being able to do it themselves. Edited April 30, 2015 by robberfox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleasenoname Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 (edited) Difference is that no one was forcing people to pay for mods. You don't want to pay? Don't pay and use an alternative mod. Having choices is a good thing. Well not really, some mods are one of a kind and you can't just go find a different one. There's only one SkyUI, one Inigo, one Immersive Armors, one Flora Overhaul. You won't be able to find replacements for a lot of great mods, and it'd suck if you had to settle for mods that might be vastly inferior.The best mods have always been unique, but that doesn't mean you have some inherent right to them. Those mods are unique and there's no option now, but if they were not free there's a very reasonable chance that alternatives would be created maybe even by you. I just came up with something to explain my view of this situation over on the official forums based on this quote: "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." Maimonides. Chesko, Arthmoor, and the SkyUI team have always shared freely with the community. They have been master fishermen and mentors to others. They said that they would gladly continue help people learn to fish but those who just wanted to eat what had already been caught would have to pay a little. The community demanded their usual free daily catch of fish and have gotten it for now. I understand that it's easier to just eat the free fish someone else caught, but to keep expecting them to fish for you every day is definitely entitlement. What is more valuable to the community the knowledge of how to construct mods or the mods themselves? Choose wisely because in the longer term you could end up with neither. I have zero 3D modeling experience, my scripting knowledge is very limited, and even if I learned and practiced for a very long time, I doubt I would be able to recreate or make something as good as a lot of the mods I use that are just simply more complicated and beyond my capabilities. The idea that 'if you want a mod just make it' is really like 'if you don't like this computer just go make your own'. Modding is a fairly technical thing, and not everyone has the ability or tools to do it as well as others. Or the time or the energy or the drive.And hey, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not a tool most people will need in their daily lives, and if they just want to download something they can enjoy, I see no reason to shame them for not being able to do it themselves. I've assembled 4 computers with every operating system imaginable. Do not discount your own abilities and potential to learn. I have used blender and gimp. Scripting is simply learning the vocabulary. And I am currently trying to figure out how icons can be inserted into the drm'd menu system of Skyrim. All these things are easy to learn, not many people are good a teaching though. This is a problem that manifests in all walks of life. Edited April 30, 2015 by pleasenoname Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robberfox Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 (edited) I've assembled 4 computers with every operating system imaginable. Do not discount your own abilities and potential to learn. I have used blender and gimp. Scripting is simply learning the vocabulary. And I am currently trying to figure out how icons can be inserted into the drm'd menu system of Skyrim. All these things are easy to learn, not many people are good a teaching though. This is a problem that manifests in all walks of life. True, that might have been a bad example, but still, I assume you spent some time learning all this? It took me several years just to get to the point I'm at now, and many people have other things and interests to occupy their time that they can't or don't want to have to dedicate to learning something like modding. If they have an interest in learning it, fine, if they just want to enjoy a mod someone else created, that's fine too.Modding is a form of entertainment at the end of the day, meant to entertain others.It's not a skill most people have practical uses for and so many don't learn it. It doesn't hurt to learn of course but I don't see the point in staring down our noses at people that don't care to. When someone asks me to draw something for them, I don't scoff and insist they just go learn to do it themselves. Edited April 30, 2015 by robberfox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juunro Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 It's funny to me the mod authors are coming down with the "You are so entitled!" card in this debate- Throughout the entire history of Elder Scrolls/Fallout modding, every mod ever made has been free. If it wasn't, it got smacked by legal action from Bethesda. The idea of being paid is suddenly new and, in historical context, a new and special honor. En.ti.tledadjective"believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment." But lets ignore that for a moment: You know that absolutely nothing would have prevented me, or more likely some fellow in China, from just downloading your mod and uploading it to steam under a different name, yeah? There is no copyright process for mods. Furthermore, absolutely nothing prevented someone from releasing a mod on steam that was promised to do something, say, adding a guild with a full quest line, had it contain a building and a couple of NPC's to talk to, and then take whatever money they made and be a ghost in the wind. Or better yet, releasing a mod for the next Elder Scrolls game that upon a patch to that game stopped working, and steam absolutely did not hold those mod authors responsible for fixing it, right? It would have been greenlight all over again; within six months the non-stop cavalcade of garbage for profit would have utterly destroyed any faith anyone had in any modder that wasn't a known veteran and if one of those vets didn't update for like two weeks for some reason after something wrong was found? Community would explode on them far worse then what happened this last weekend. People were mad with thier hearts and minds before, god help you if the same thing happened when their wallet was involved. By all means though, the harassment was bad. But don't blame community outrage for a flawed and stupid system that you signed up for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hseeker25 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Reminds me evry time we fight for a open and free Internet, like SOPA, PIPA etc etc etc.How many paywalls will there be untill they start charging us for breathing air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdcooley Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 I have zero 3D modeling experience, my scripting knowledge is very limited, and even if I learned and practiced for a very long time, I doubt I would be able to recreate or make something as good as a lot of the mods I use that are just simply more complicated and beyond my capabilities.No one starts with those skills and experiences. You've taken that one comment a bit too personally and seem to have missed the word "maybe". The idea that 'if you want a mod just make it' is really like 'if you don't like this computer just go make your own'. Modding is a fairly technical thing, and not everyone has the ability or tools to do it as well as others. Or the time or the energy or the drive.And hey, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not a tool most people will need in their daily lives, and if they just want to download something they can enjoy, I see no reason to shame them for not being able to do it themselves.And these comments come across to me as "I can't do that so you have to keep doing it for me." I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant but it's how it sounds. I didn't mean to say that every individual would have to go recreate every mod. What I meant is that there are other members of the community who already have the skills (or could acquire them) who would fill the void. I know because that sort of thing has already happened. Within the history of TES game modding there have been people who have removed their mods and the community has adapted by creating new mods. There have been modders who have retired and even died, but mods continue to be made. If the number of modders who want to be paid for their mods is as small as people believe then the community has nothing to fear. But what I see is a very vocal segment of the community who are trying to "shame" modders who don't want to give (all of) their work away for free. The only reasons I can see for doing that are either simple greed or a fear that secretly all modders have a desire to charge for their mods and if anyone is allowed to do it then everyone will. I am not panicked like so many others seem to be because I actually do have faith in the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdcooley Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 There is no copyright process for mods.Yes there is. Not only would uploading other people's mods be immoral it is illegal in almost every country in the world. Entitlement is certainly a perfect description for the concept that you have some inherent right to the work produced by others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relativelybest Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 (edited) Valve and Bethesda got greedy, the community came down on them like the fist of an angry god, a few modders that fell for their scam got caught in the crossfire, Valve and Bethesda surrendered. Yeah, this all sounds like an epic rollercoaster of disappointment. Tell me more. Edited April 30, 2015 by Relativelybest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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