Issue concerning blood decals on custom weapons-

[zaty1]

Howdy,

 

I am having some issues with a new model I am working on. The blood decals are not properly displaying on the weapon.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/natyla/ScreenShot36.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/natyla/wonkyblooddecals.jpg

Edit: http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/natyla/ScreenShot43.jpg

(Ignore the texture- WIP!)

 

The 2 links should give you an idea. I have tried all sorts of things to fix this - as I didn't have a very noticeable issue with my knives - using my cobbled together "process".

At first I thought it was the mesh smoothing, couple clicks of a mouse - same problem. It also, is just not those spots I linked - its random, those just best illustrate.

I've tried using decals from 5-7 diff vanilla weapons now - same effect. I've gotten suggestions to scale up/down the decals/model - same issue.

Have poked around with tspaceflags (albeit - severe lack of knowledge there) still no results.

I duplicated all the settings in my knife model for the heck of it - no luck.

(Though that gives me an idea to try)

 

The only thing I know I've done differently, and am in process of changing - was I mirrored/overlapped my UV for each side of the blade. Is that possibly the issue?

(Tested - 3rd pic -flattened UV - plain green texture - same effects)

 

Or anyone else have any clues or ideas? I could just remove them, or let them stay messed up but that annoys me - highly.

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

Edited December 31, 2010 by zaty1

[KMA]

I would put a checker pattern on it and see what you are getting with it. Then I would do a color/number grid to see exactly what it going on. I have seen some strange things done with games, and the decal implementation in FNV leaves a lot to be desired (I cut them from my Landscape ReTex entirely due to their placement - clipping on two sides to hide one seam). Once you get those results post them and I might be able to help. I would offer to check this out but I cannot run the game currently (dead main system) so I need to see pics to give my 2-cents.

 

I am putting a watch on this thread.

 

Cheers,

 

4Aces

[zaty1]

Ok, woot - some interest :)

 

Took a few more ss - sorry if they are dark or not the greatest. The mesh isn't really stitched or tweaked- just flat out in chunks.

 

Using checker pattern/flat normalmap

No Decal- http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/natyla/ScreenShot46.jpg

With Decal- http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/natyla/ScreenShot44.jpg

With Decal/different time- http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/natyla/ScreenShot47.jpg

This particular spot at the handle - doesn't always do this - it is seemingly random.

 

2 more - predominantly of a UV seam - same model/ingame test - different blood decals

Cutoff at seam- http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/natyla/ScreenShot50.jpg

Seam is ok- http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/natyla/ScreenShot51.jpg

 

I doublechecked for broken vertices on the model, tried various mesh smoothing methods, and I even cursed at it. No luck.

I almost am beginning to wonder if it is related to the d3d9.dll tweaks or even a Nvidia vs Ati driver issue. (Using Nvidia myself)

 

Gonna try to add myself all the vanilla melee weps, and see if any of those show signs of funkyness, and then look at their .nif too.

Heck, I might just redo the model but use a different construction method for it - I am still learning so, maybe approaching it differently will solve it.

(Or atleast build some test objects with various angles/mesh)

 

Lemme know if you need some more pictures.

Thanks :)

 

Edit: Going to try to just make the stitch the UV to the least seams possible (probably should anyways) and see if that helps? I dunno, I get to drink tonight so... maybe tomorrow.

Edited December 31, 2010 by zaty1

[baduk]

Hi!

 

Thanks for starting a thread about your problem.

Having threads like this is helpful and reading threads like this is what helped me get my stuff to work.

 

I forgot to suggest that you try updating the tangent spaces on your nif. its under the spells>batch at the top menu.

IT might help cause it fixes weird normals that i get sometimes.

 

Can you post a screenshot of your nif in nifskope?

I dont know what block details u want to have open tho. i guess just have your nitristrips block selected.

[zaty1]

Okidokie, 80 tests later... I have some more info, which ya'll may or may not know, but I will put here for benefit of others.

 

Firstly, per my initial problems - I tore the model apart and started with just the blade. My blade portion was NOT attached to the handle but slightly set into it. The hidden poly was just a hole. Shoddy modelwork on my part, or just something that displays issues on this engine. So, I cap'd it off - checked the rest of the model just to be sure I wasn't missing anything - export, slip into the other .nif - works "fine". Proceeded to fix the holes on the handle, my cords, whatever - most of the decal issues are immediately gone. YAY!

 

However, you can still see some sharp cuts in the blood decals to how they are applied to the melee weap. Here are some screenshots with a little note regarding to how each was taken - or the angles.

 

1st - http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/natyla/ScreenShot56.jpg

Blood decals were applied via 1st person, and then tfc'd around to see better- you CAN see the seam from 1st person.

 

2nd - http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/natyla/ScreenShot58.jpg

This is my fancy weapon I concocted to test some more things. Don't laugh! Anyways, same thing- decals applied from 1st person. I tried to get the angle lined up - so you can see the decals literally are simply chucked at the model and whatever faces they hit - the decal(s) show.

 

3rd - http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/natyla/ScreenShot59.jpg

4th - http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/natyla/ScreenShot60.jpg

A top and bottom view from slightly off angles to show decals not appearing.

 

5th - http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/natyla/ScreenShot55.jpg

A splatter on the edge of the table - same concept. Decal dropped from above, and doesn't stick to the side of table that was out of view at the time the decal was made.

 

Now, pointing back at the first picture in this post, I can see how the seam was created. I make the assumption that not all the nodes are used each time a decal is stuck to a weapon, but perhaps random? Or maybe they just use the closest one to the current camera viewing angle. (Could possibly test that by deleting all the decal nodes but 1, or 1 for each side.)

 

Another thing to check with in terms of decals is semi-tailoring them opposed to simply using a batch from some random vanilla melee wep. Take a sword for example, or something with a flat blade. If you arrange the nodes at say - 45deg angles of the flat surface, they will still hit the flat - as WELL as the top or bottom edge. Once again, pointing to 1st picture here. Something round obviously would benefit more from a pipe or bat opposed to the sword decals.

 

I suppose the next thing to test would be, to see if its possible to combine some of the decal placement nodes to create a thicker grouping around a weapon. Instead of 7 in a group - double it up so even more angles are covered. I don't know just what kind of affect that would have on the model, the size, or any effects maybe on memory/engine usage.

 

So, that is what I've come up with - albeit - on New Years so, take that for what it is worth...

Hopefully this info will be as useful to someone else as it has been to me.

 

Edit: Spelling..

Edited January 1, 2011 by zaty1

[KMA]

I just caught up with everything you have done so far, and I think you are correct about the angle controlling the wrap of the decal. They likely went with something very low, so > 30 and you get funk.

 

I think you might benefit from a grid texture replacement for the splatter decal. If I remember correctly then the splatter decal is actually a quad (4 diffuse maps crammed into one dds file). They are probably randomly loading one at generation (just like the grass it will probably change at reload).

 

I just looked for a blood decal and there is none (at least none in the Mesh decal folder or search for blood). I do not know how they GECK handles them, but perhaps you could copy and use one of the existing ones (modified for texture and possibly shape) to get better decals for your purposes?

 

You could go with tailored versions for each weapon, but that would start to increase the overhead of decals considerably. When a single mesh is copied a bunch of times it does not increase resources that much (unless the engine is borked). If you create new meshes for each then you have to severely limit the number that can appear at any one time. I would try for a generic version first.

 

If you get to the point where tailoring becomes necessary, then you could take a look into just tailoring the weapon texture. Have two versions, and just switch the mesh over for a duration to the bloody version. Of course you will want a gore mod so that there is a lot of blood flying around to obscure the change. Many games have used this method, and while not as appealing as having semi-random decals, it is better than sharp edges.

[zaty1]

You've given me some ideas to test.

 

Just to be clear though - that I am not misunderstanding your suggestion - when I say tailored for the weapon, I merely mean moving the nodes around. Not creating new decals for every weapon. The only overhead I see in theory at that point is some extra nodes in the model.

 

Example - model has 3 groups - 7 nodes in each, for 21 total. If we duplicate each of those groups, we jump to 42 nodes. We reposition those duplicate nodes to create a cleaner, more encompassing array around the model. In theory, simply adding more angles for decal application, while using all the vanilla decals. IF, infact it uses the best angle for your view - I think something like this would fix the seam of my "fixed" model.

 

Or, atleast that is how I envision it. If this is what you were responding to - I apologize. I have no intentions of making any new decals. :P

[baduk]

Great investigation your doing!

 

After reading your explanation i think that a random node is chosen for decal placement just to make it so the blood doesnt show up at the same place all the time.

Or maybe it is in a set pattern.

 

Is it the rotation of the chosen decal placement vector what is determines which faces the decal is displayed on?

 

Your idea of making it have more vector groups is interesting to try tho depending on how its set up it may not use all the groups or there might be some kind of bug.

 

You could also just try changing the p rotation a bit for the decal placement vector groups. Rotating the individual decal placement vectors is not easy to do because there is no visual indicator drawn in nifskope.

The rotation of the child node does not change when you rotate the parent and it might not help if it is a global rotation but since it is called a decal placement vector maybe the vector is the displacement vector between the child and parent node, so the rotation of the child node may be relative to that vector.

 

But. that description is probably completely wrong cause when i look at a projectile node I know what direction its supposed to shoot it would seem even more strange and convoluted if they arent set up just like the decal placement vectors. The projectile nodes i have seen are all y-90 p0 r-90, so if that means they point forward at the target and its a euler rotation I think it means that the rotation is on global axes and it points straight down if at y0p0r0.

 

Btw, I would have hoped that projectiles just move straight forward on the y axis by default but i have read a thread about someone who had his gun shooting straight up before. :wallbash:

 

Maybe we should request a node rotation display for nifskope cause nifskope displays other stuff like normals and constraint settings.

Edited January 2, 2011 by baduk

[zaty1]

Just checking in- bout time for dinner.

 

I was going to test more vector groups just to get an idea, but - I really want to try just doubling the nodes per group and adjusting them.

I also want to actually delete 2 groups, and test the views with only 1 functioning group. One of my ideas is that each group corrosponds to a camera view. One for first person, 3rd person, and outer body experiences. In theory atleast. If that is the case, then we double the nodes per group to see if the game recognizes those or is hardcoded at 7 or some other number.

 

I agree though, if there was something that was able to give us the direction a node was facing - it would making testing these things much easier.

 

Plenty more tests to do, will have some more info in a day or 2. Taken up some more work on my model since I know that is user creation error (for some part of the issues).