Umbra the Unfortunate

[Inafog]

Can Umbra (the NPC, not the sword) be redeemed? I am surprised that, with all the thousands of mods available, nobody has made one which would enable a player to coax the unfortunate Bosmer out into the world again. Perhaps bringing her food and presents, or talking to her, could result in her return to Cyrodiil. I always feel sorry for her. I don’t want her sword, I want to save her from the eternal gloom of Vahtacen.

On a connected note, since the sword Umbra is evil, shouldn’t there be a curse affecting any player who is so wicked as to kill Umbra and take the sword? Perhaps the gradual reduction of the player’s Personality to 0 would be appropriate.

[Striker879]

We are of a like mind Inafog, at least on the first point.

 

My current character has befriended Umbra via Give A Gift and he managed to pickpocket the a-cursed sword from her by using SMYB - Show Me Your Body (just so she'd unequip the sword ... honest). He dreams of whisking her off to Ardah when he becomes rich and famous.

 

In the meantime he hasn't decided yet whether to keep the sword or trade it for a hat.

[Inafog]

I did not know about the Give A Gift mod--I'll investigate it. My character has been visiting Vahtacen every so often and leaving various food items (plus a cooking pot, tablecloth, and pan, from the Salmo the Baker mod) for Umbra. I am glad to find someone of like mind on this. http://i.imgur.com/Qr9StM1.png?1

[Striker879]

Unfortunately the default Umbra has no sleep or eat AI packages. Before I succeeded in pickpocketing the sword from her with the help of SMYB I tried using the console to give her a sleep package (addscriptpackage a3a5a) but would get caught every time (most NPCs that don't have a sleep package will only lay down a few seconds using that method).

 

There are an awful lot of NPCs that lack eat and sleep packages ... as a result I have a rather extensive "to do list" for my own NPCTweaks.esp, a task that won't get any attention now until late in September.

 

To properly achieve our goal with Umbra requires scripting as well, something that to date falls outside the scope of my present modding abilities.

[Inafog]

Yes, I know that Umbra never sleeps or eats. That's why I hope someone can mod her. I have no modding skills at all, unfortunately.

[Surilindur]

This sounds interesting. There certainly are moments in the game when killing feels unnecessary. Having slaughtered a few thousand bandits and such, killing someone for just one sword feels rather stupid - especially when the situation might not completely be that person's fault. If I could, I would probably have saved most of the 'bad' characters in both Oblivion and Skyrim. Do they really have to die? Like Miraak, for example. Why on earth is there no option to save him without using a mod? He seems smart enough, and would certainly be of help when the Empire is next time attacked by the Thalmor. So I use a mod to make him a follower, to help the Empire gather more strength for the most likely inevitable new war with the Dominion. So that the Empire will finally be able to crush the Thalmor and remove all the restrictions - like the one regarding the worship of Talos - dictated by them. :smile:

 

If such a mod were made, how might the 'redeeming' system work, exactly? Perhaps it could work like:

• Player finds Umbra, who is aggressive just like she is. But it is possible to try to convince her to leave Vindasel, but she is not certain she likes to see Cyrodiil again, after all she has done. And she is not sure whether the people of Pell's Gate would accept her back.
• The player can tell the people of Pell's Gate of the sword's corrupting power, trying to convince them of Lenwin not being guilty for what she has done, but they will not believe him/her.
• Player has to go to the Imperial City, to The First Edition, to buy a book describing the history and powers of Umbra (I found the lore article on Umbra on the UESP - the pre-3^rd era parts of it should work well as the book's contents).
• The book is enough to convince the people of Pell's Gate to accept Umbra back - if the sword is taken away.
• Player tells Umbra/Lenwin the people of Pell's Gate have agreed to take her back - if the sword is gotten rid of first. Umbra/Lenwin will only agree to go return and give the sword away if her disposition is higher than something (what could it be?).
• When player manages to convince her, Umbra/Lenwin gives the sword to player, as well as her armour, for it reminds her too much of her past. She then leaves for Pell's Gate.
• Player can do whatever he/she wishes with the sword.
• Umbra can be made to follow the player - she is, after all, a mercenary.

Would that sound acceptable? Or does it need tweaking? This is an interesting idea, and the mod should be relatively easy to make. So I might be able to try to make something like that.

 

Edit: All that could be optional. So that it would still be possible to challenge and kill her for the sword.

Edited May 11, 2015 by PhilippePetain

[Striker879]

I enjoyed the challenge of getting her disposition high enough via Give A Gift (was trying to avoid leveling Personality at that point so no disposition mini-gaming). With Enhanced Economy keeping my guy poor it was a strain on my resources buying/finding gifts for her. Every time I wasn't successful pickpocketing the sword she'd lose some disposition, setting my plan back. If the sword really does affect the person then you shouldn't be able to convince her to give up the sword while she still has it. Even after relieving her of the sword it should take some time for sanity to return.

 

I like the idea of convincing the Pell's Gate residents to accept her back, but there is a problem of where would she live (Schlera has the only available room at The Sleeping Mare). Shafaye's house has a spare bed so perhaps Umbra could stay there after some further quest to convince Shafaye of Umbra's rehabilitation (maybe Shafaye will require you to have Umbra accompany you for some time beforehand ... the net result would be when you don't want Umbra along as a follower she can stay with Shafaye). Another option could be the Inn of Ill Omen private rooms (the first room on your left after you go down the hatch ... the second room is needed for Rufio once that Dark Brotherhood quest starts).

 

Schelera could be a quest giver for the quest to get the other Pell's Gate residents accepting Umbra. She tells you that the bandits trying to displace the marauders in Fort Homestead haven't had any success and are starting to threaten Pell's Gate. She wants you to clean out the whole lot, bandits and marauders. Because Schlera is an archer she won't go into the fort herself so she has had to do her best keeping the bandits away from Pell's Gate.

[Surilindur]

Hmm... that would work. Perhaps it would indeed be nice to make it so that, after the book has been delivered, Schlera (or someone else) gives Umbra the chance to earn her place at Pell's Gate by helping the player kill the marauder leader at Fort Homestead, for the marauders are trying to extort protection money from Pell's Gate. The player could then go to Umbra, convince her to give up the sword temporarily, to see what happens (disposition check?) and then help her kill the marauder leader (and everyone else who happens to become aggressive when entering the fort). When the marauder is dead, Umbra could be accepted back by the residents of Pell's Gate and she could tell the player to keep the sword. She does not need it anymore.

 

How would that sound? And who could the questgiver be? Is Schlera the head of the village? Should it be someone 'in charge' there? So that he/she could speak on behalf the whole community...

 

I could add a home for Umbra at the Pell's Gate, too. It should be pretty easy. So that she would not need to live at someone else's house. There could be spider webs or such and everyhting messed up before Umbra returns and cleans the place up.

 

How would that sound?

 

Edit: Also, does that way of obtaining the sword sound acceptable? Having to pickpocket it might limit people who can do it - especially with a modded game. How could it be possible to get the sword, so that it does not feel stupid? This is frustrating...

Edited May 11, 2015 by PhilippePetain

[Striker879]

Either Umbra lived with one of the current residents (I guess both Irroke's and Shafaye's have two beds) or a house for her would need to be added. I tend to the not adding a house side for compatibility. The lore from the UESP wiki page for Umbra (the person) and what Irroke tells the player when asking about her don't exactly agree ... the wiki makes it sound like some villagers were killed (doesn't say Pell's Gate, but that is implied as it says Umbra was driven out as a result) while Irroke doesn't make any mention of deaths just that Lenwin/Umbra was his apprentice. She could easily have been living with Irroke and killed someone who lived with Shafaye or the other way around. Whichever way, the person who had a partner killed wouldn't likely let Umbra move in so she'd be moving in with the other.

 

I've never had a feeling that anyone in Pell's Gate was a leader. Candice tells my character "Don't go stirring up trouble" every time I open conversation with her (my guy is still toting around the sword, unable to decide if her wants to keep it or trade it for a hat). Perhaps if you speak to any of the other Pell's Gate residents they direct you to talk to Schlera (same as they direct you to talk to Irroke if you are asking about Umbra when starting the daedric quest).

 

Often it seems that marauder dungeons have bandits camped outside. I can't recall ever reading any explanation for that. I like to think of it as the more lightly armed bandits trying to displace the more heavily armed entrenched marauders (though the only spot I can think of that has them conflicting is Rockmilk Cave, and there it's Black Bow bandits and it's unclear who is trying to displace who). The problem with my previous "explanation" as to why Schlera seeks your help is that when the Fort Homestead cell respawns the bandits will be back (as well as the marauders inside). That's a limitation with every cave/ruin/dungeon in the game (would be far more believable for me if I cleaned out bandits this time, and next time was creatures and then the next time was conjurers etc).

 

I still prefer the notion of needing to pickpocket the sword from her (if Umbra has a sleep package with unequip weapons and armor set you wouldn't necessarily need to use Give A Gift and SMYB). If the player got Umbra's disposition high enough beforehand she won't go hostile if you get caught in the pickpocket attempt. If you don't spend the time and effort to get her disposition up first and get caught you'd best have your good running boots on or be prepared for the usual Umbra fight.

[Surilindur]

All right. Perhaps it made more sense if she lived at Irroke's house. How about adding a bed there? That should not break too many things, should it? Maybe Irroke could be careful not to mention who Umbra killed, if the victim would have been a friend of Shafaye...

 

The thing with clearing a fort is that, to be able to determine if everyone there is dead, I will need to make separate marauders to place there, with a script to count the amount of dead. There might also be other ways, but this is the easiest. The best way to do the dungeon delving part, without having to modify the fort much and make separate bandits for it, would be to add an NPC to the final chamber. When that NPC is dead, the quest moves forward.

 

Pickpocketing could be made mandatory, yes. The normal persuasion minigame should work for most, but as Give A Gift also makes it possible to raise disposition, those who have it could use it, instead. And the time passed after the sword is taken away... how about making it so that at least one day must pass before player can enter Vindasel again after stealing the sword. If player enters earlier, when Umbra is awake, Umbra attacks him/her. If player enters after one day (or two days?) has passed, she will admit not having been herself, after which it is possible to kill the marauder and return to Pell's Gate? After all, if Umbra will be available to use as a follower, it should not be too easy to make her one... :smile:

 

So, how would this sound?

• Player finds Umbra, who is aggressive just like she is. But it is possible to try to convince her to leave Vindasel, but she is not certain she likes to see Cyrodiil again, after all she has done. And she is not sure whether the people of Pell's Gate would accept her back.
• The player can tell the people of Pell's Gate of the sword's corrupting power, trying to convince them of Lenwin not being guilty for what she has done, but they will not believe him/her.
• Player has to go to the Imperial City, to The First Edition, to buy a book describing the history and powers of Umbra (I found the lore article on Umbra on the UESP - the pre-3^rd era parts of it should work well as the book's contents).
• The book is enough to convince the people of Pell's Gate to accept Umbra back - if the sword is taken away and Umbra proves herself worthy by killing the marauder leader at Fort Homestead. The marauders have been harassing the village, and it needs to stop.
• Player tells Umbra/Lenwin the people of Pell's Gate have agreed to take her back and what the conditions are. Umbra refuses to give the sword away, it means too much for her. It is the source of her power. The player just wants the sword for himself/herself. She tells player to go away.
• Player has to pickpocket the sword while Umbra sleeps, no other option. When the sword is pickpocketed, player has to leave Vindasel before Umbra wakes up. If player enter before one day (or two days?) has passed, Umbra will attack him/her. If player enters after one day (or two days?) has passed, Umbra will admit not having been herself and agree to kill the marauder. But the player has to help, as Umbra no longer has her sword.
• Player and Umbra go and try to kill the marauder. Umbra can die, ending the quest there and causing the player to gain disposition with all Pell's Gate inhabitants???
• If Umbra and player survive, Irroke will agree to take Umbra back as his apprentice. Umbra will be available to use as a follower. Player loses disposition with Shafaye, gains with Irroke and Umbra???
• Umbra gives her armour, for it reminds her too much of her past? Should she? Or should she not?
• In the end, Umbra lives at Irroke's house and is available to use as a follower. Player has both Umbra's armour and sword.

How would that sound? Should she give up her armour if she stays alive? Perhaps she could keep it? So that the player can have either Umbra as a follower or Umbra's armour, not both? Only when Umbra is dead, might player get the armour (unless someone uses follower equipment management mod). Also, should Umbra change her name back to Lenwin?

 

Thank you for all the suggestions. This is getting interesting. It is much easier to make the mod when there is a ready plan on how to do it, it seems. I have tried making some without a plan, and they have all ended up in tears (also, in the Recycle Bin, which I have then emptied).

Edited May 11, 2015 by PhilippePetain