Help with "A World Of Pain"

[djmystro]

I have run into a few problems whilst trying to update A World Of Pain and am seeking assistance in solving them. Full credits will go to anyone who can fix it up, I'm not looking for answers as much as for someone to look into the new file and see if they can spot and fix the problems in the GECK. If no-one has the time for this then fair enough, any general advice is still welcome.

A bit of background first though so you know what you are dealing with.

I have been working near non-stop over the last week in an effort to get the latest update completed. In that time I neglected to create a proper back-up of my file (just an .esm I use for testing).

The .esp file became corrupt after a long and unsuccessful attempt to create my first quest (I have just about mastered dialogue at this stage). Every time I tried to load the esp the GECK crashed immediately meaning I had to use the realtively safe esm version. Now the GECK crashes after every save which means I can still get work done but the mod feels very unstable at the moment.

I tired to convert the esm back to an esp properly (rather than just changing the header in FNVEdit which is a temprary fix at best). To do this I took an old esp of the mod and merged it with the new version using FNVEdit. This resulted in errors. I figured I could attempt this with a new clean esp but I don't even know to what degree this would work.

For example it may be easier and quicker for me to just copy the new areas made since the last update and paste them into the old esp (the one currently online), then fill in all the missing bits after. This is do-able but a last resort as I think I'll lose important stuff like navmesh (If no help comes this is what i'll end up doing).

So my problems are essentially twofold. First I'm stuck with an unstable .esm when I would prefer an esp and second I've probably messed something up with my quest attempt.

I don't know what to look for and after 8+ hours of failing to make a quest I just about give up so if you have the time and the knowledge please lend a hand. Hopefully I can return the favor at some point.

[davidlallen]

I'm not sure I completely follow. You had a working, released mod say "A.esm". You added a bunch of stuff to create a new version "B.esp" but somehow got to a point where geck would crash while opening the file. You are able to convert "B.esp" to an esm "B.esm" using fnvedit. Then you can open "B.esm" in geck but of course you can't edit it anymore. Then you attempted to merge A.esm with B.esp but this was unsuccessful. Is that all correct?

 

Two pieces of information may help, or not. 1. Geck always crashes on exit, or almost always. This is bad programming but doesn't indicate anything bad about your mod. So you can ignore that. 2. The only difference between esp and esm is one bit, which you can flip in fnvedit. There is no "better" or "more complete" way to make an esm.

 

I am pretty sure nobody can help with "B.esp", which crashes geck on opening it. Maybe, an expert in fnvedit could look at "B.esp" in fnvedit and find something wrong. Do any error messages appear in fnvedit when you open it? Are you able to do operations in fnvedit such as check for errors, apply filters, etc?

 

If you have "B.esm", which will at least open in geck, could you upload it somewhere? Maybe somebody can see something by looking at that file. If you upload it, any volunteer could come along and look.

[djmystro]

Thanks for your quick response.

The esm file (B.esm) in this case was made and saved about an hour before the esp got to the point it was crashing the GECK. I edit the esp in GECK then create a new esm from it using FOMM and TESnip which I use for testing and uploading as the main file. I never updated the esm from the previous test so I had that to fall back on.

I'll upload a file with both the esm and esp in it on the AWOP page.

[Quetzlsacatanango]

One thing I have noticed just recently, is that if I have a filename.esm which isn't really an esm (no esm flag, just named that way), and I save in GECK, it will make it a true esm (tick the flag). Thereafter when I try to save in GECK, it will crash.

If that's not your issue I'll be happy to look at it, I really enjoy your mod.

PM me.

[djmystro]

Yeah, that definately sounds like the last issue I encountered. I can't really work with a mod I have to exit after every save.

[davidlallen]

I downloaded your "broken do not download" files from the AWOP page. I am not immediately able to solve the problem, but here is some info which may help.

 

1. I also get the crash on loading geck with your "crash esp", but unfortunately I also get a crash on loading geck with your esm. So I cannot load either one in geck.

 

2. If you aren't using geck powerup, you really really should. As geck is loading either one of your files, it spews a bunch of errors. I am not sure if they are causing the crash but these may be clues. There are messages about one huge navmesh (bonnie spring sewer), four or five unconnected worldspace navmeshes, and five topics which have no associated quest (00FrankieGoodbye, and some others related to Frankie.)

 

3. I can load either file into fnvedit. The "crash esp" is in fact an esp; there was a comment that maybe it was an esm with the wrong filename but that is not the problem.

 

4. The menu choice "display errors" in fnvedit displays the same errors about Frankie topics, and also displays a huge number of "imod" errors. There is another thread recently that says the imod errors are non-issues. But here is more evidence that Frankie topics are your problem.

 

I don't know exactly how to fix the Frankie errors, but I suspect that is where your problem is. I suggest you use fnvedit to delete the Frankie topics, and then check again for errors. Maybe some other stuff refers to the Frankie topics and that needs to be deleted, and so on back. But presumably this is only a few items out of the many you have changed. Then, I recommend using geck powerup, and reloading the mod in geck to see if there are any other problems.

 

At some point you will have to fix the broken worldspace navmeshes, and I don't know if the one huge navmesh is an actual problem. But neither of those "feel like" they are causing the geck crash.

[djmystro]

Thanks for the assistance.

I downloaded GECK Powerup ages ago and forgot all about it so i'll definately use that next time.

I will also look into removing pretty much everything to do with Frankie using FNVEdit. I made a quest for him that did not work at all and created another which was an improvement (speech worked fine) but that probably conflicts with the first. About the time I tried to delete the first quest is when the esp version started crashing contantly.

I have no idea what the navmesh errors are referring to. I never get any error reoprts in GECK (standard version) and the area seems to play fine.

I think I'm gonna take tonight off for the most part and relax my brain for a while so any more advice is still useful in the meantime.

Thanks again for your help.

[rickerhk]

I'm not on a computer where I can check at the moment, but it sounds like the topic errors are probably unresolved references? This could have happened when saving the esp, having loaded it and forgetting to set the esm bit in the esm file. The geck would have removed it as a master, breaking the sync of any topics that existed in both master and esp. Upon re-attaching the esm to the esp, the records will be duplicates instead of overrides. You can fix those by editing the formID in the esp. Make it identical to the topic in the esm - ALL 8 digits. That will restore it's override status.

 

In my opinion, the best way to manage a big project is to work with esm/esp pairs. You never mess with the esm unless you are ready to merge all your new content and changes from the esp into it. Basically just a cycle of:

1. start with esm

2. open with geck, save an new esp with the esm as a master.

3. add new content and changes to the esp

4. Backup both esp/esm regularly with multiple versions (not just overwriting the same backup)

5. At regular intervals, merge esp UP into esm. See section 6.4 of this manual http://www.newvegasnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=38413 for BORGing it.

6. Discard the esp

7. Goto step 1

 

The only gotcha with this is if you want to add sound to topics. Do it after the new topics are merged into the esm. Not only the path changes, but the formid and therefore the sound file name might change too.

 

Then if you want to release your mod as both esm and esp versions, you just convert a copy of the main esm to an esp with FNVedit.

 

Always use FNVEdit to toggle the master bit for a project.

[davidlallen]

That is good advice. I have a couple of followup questions.

 

Why would you distribute an esp? It will have navmesh problems.

 

If I rename between esp and esm, is there any way to keep the voice recording names the same? For example, if I have entered my own filenames so they are understandable, will the directory name keep changing as I switch between esp and esm? Will it reset a user-given filename to something different if the formid changes?

 

If I reliably make a backup of my esp every few hours of work, is there any additional benefit to cycling between esp and esm as you suggest? Merging using fnvedit does require a few extra steps.

[djmystro]

rickerhk: Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately I'm not sure if much of that applies to the mod I was working on as there is no file that relies upon a master. The esm is essentially just a duplicate of the esp converted to address certain graphics issues. The two files work on thier own (or they used to anyway).

davidallen: The original AWOP esp was uploaded on user request. They had been warned about the problems that may arise but wanted to check it out anyway. Also it's handy for others to edit the mod to thier own tastes.