Are people optimistic about the West/US/Europe?

[RZ1029]

Nobody should be optimistic about the West, or the entire world and the survival of the human society itself, unless we get rid of outdated models of world-management (pure capitalism) which destroy and purposefully mismanage our limited resources, create inequality among us, and bring us ever more quickly to an ecological holocaust, something which the experts say will be in most of our lifetimes.

 

<snipped, no need to re-quote just to comment>

 

And please don't think I'm, as South Park would say, a "hippy liberal douchebag", hahaha http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/laugh.gif (no offense intended to the hippies or the liberals of course! I like all good happy types) I happen to teach modern and historical military martial and survivalist martial arts, and self-defence is what it's all about. We have to defend ourselves or, just like against an attacker on the street, we very well might get killed.

1) I approve. 2) If you ever start a cult, let me know. I'll join. 3) What do you think the odds are of that happening? And how do you suggest we begin fixing it? Not necessarily just in Italy.

[WizardOfAtlantis]

1) I approve. 2) If you ever start a cult, let me know. I'll join. 3) What do you think the odds are of that happening? And how do you suggest we begin fixing it? Not necessarily just in Italy.

1)Those are the replies, such as from Grannywils and Balagor too, that recharge my happy-ometer towards humanity. 2.)hahaha. http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/biggrin.gifWe'll see how the future unfolds. For now, I'll put you on the mental list, hehehttp://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/wink.gif

 

 

3.)*sigh* I do see the possibility of a Star Trek like future, where humanity works together synergistically and creatively after using machines to free us from ridiculous labour. Please see Jacque Fresco and The Venus Project for a very detailed and comprehensive plan that provides us with a working system to do just that on a world-wide level using a resource-based economy. It could be a true "futuristic" future for us, where life is sustainable and people can work on what they want to do, not what they have to do.

 

Would it take money to start? (Unless we drop the whole money thing, which is the point to begin with) Yes. But money there is. Obama is giving away trillions and trillions of public dollars back to the banks to save their asses whereas that money could have very well given a Major shift towards renewable energy implementation, not development because it's already perfectly feasible, but actual implementation.

 

Banks and world-destroying corporations are Monsters that prey on humanity. Corrupt politicians are Monsters as well, because they are the vehicles of those first two Monsters' wills.

 

Now, the Venus Project or something like that even in mentality, is a workable, feasible plan for the survival of the human race. Then, that plan has to be enacted, and this is where the real trouble starts. Monsters don't just give up the gold in their lairs, do they? No, they never do. They have to be taken out, usually by violent means because they themselves are violent creatures by nature. IF humanity got together enough, filled with brotherly and sisterly love and compassion (and that includes compassion even for the monsters, because they themselves are only products of shaping that have gone out of control), then all of this could be done peacefully and starting tomorrow.

 

But we all know that's not likely to happen, don't we? Monsters will fight to the last, even if their million/billion/trillion dollar salaries mean they are destroying our very world, with incredibly vast consequences that should rear their heads in the next few decades, according to the experts (economists, environmentalists, and the Wise). We already know these things but the Monsters are not stopping. They push gas guzzling cars, outdated methods of fuelling our planet and basing our whole worldwide economy on fossil fuels which will run out, and making the world go round with money...money!

 

MONEY DOESN'T EVEN EXIST. Money is the Great Black Magic of our times, the grand illusion that is based on nothing, created from nothing, and so self-perpetuates its inherent debt so that humanity will always be in debt, always be enslaved, and will always require bailouts and loans and such. Long ago, money meant something because coins were made of precious metals that had inherent (if still arbitrary) value. The whole system of exchange of goods produced by humans (I give you my bracelet for that axe-head, or two beads of amber for your Baltic necklace) goes out the window once we mechanize labour, and so does the whole system of money.

 

I hope for peaceful change, because change there must be, but I see Black Times ahead, with the ever-increasing probability of millions if not billions of deaths worldwide. Giants and Monsters are running rampant, destroying our world, and raping its resources out of control and beyond all rational sense. What have we always done to murderers, rapists, serial killers and psychopaths? They, the Banks, the Corporations, and the Politicians that allow them to do this must be removed from power, in the end by any LEGAL means necessary for the survival of the human race, because these entities are, by all possible definitions, MONSTERS.

 

I recently changed my sig below to show what I think should be done to monsters.

 

*Happily edited according to the sound advice of Ginnyfizz*

Edited January 30, 2011 by WizardOfAtlantis

[ginnyfizz]

Of course there will be billions of deaths. We are all going to die some day. The only two certainties in life are death and taxes.

 

I have made it pretty clear that I hold no brief for the bankers. But your Utopian vision isn't going to work either. I really cannot see the majority of people going back to being peasant farmers working in collectives, either. Ever tried ploughing behind a horse? I have. It's hard going. Now those Shire horses are gorgeous beasts but if you want it done quick, roll up with the Massey Ferguson/Ford/John Deere diesel belching tractor. And as to alternative forms of energy , if you are concerned about pollution and the environment, you should be concerned about the alternative energy solutions that are about. Those monster wind turbines are going to take a helluva lot of disposing of when they are broken. They ruin acre after acre of our landscape. Here in windy Britain, the ruddy things don't turn half the time. Tidal barrages frequently destroy wildlife habitats.

 

What alarms be and makes me concerned for the future of the Western world is not just external threat, but the internal threat of rushing headlong into all this wanting to change society, everything must go, without any concrete thought about what you want to replace it with. And frankly, I find the statement below EXTREMELY disturbing;-

 

"They, the Banks, the Corporations, and the Politicians that allow them to do this must be removed from power, in the end by any means necessary for the survival of the human race, because these entities are, by all possible definitions, MONSTERS."

 

It sounds to me like an incitement to violence.

[WizardOfAtlantis]

Of course there will be billions of deaths. We are all going to die some day. The only two certainties in life are death and taxes.

 

I have made it pretty clear that I hold no brief for the bankers. But your Utopian vision isn't going to work either. I really cannot see the majority of people going back to being peasant farmers working in collectives, either. Ever tried ploughing behind a horse? I have. It's hard going. Now those Shire horses are gorgeous beasts but if you want it done quick, roll up with the Massey Ferguson/Ford/John Deere diesel belching tractor. And as to alternative forms of energy , if you are concerned about pollution and the environment, you should be concerned about the alternative energy solutions that are about. Those monster wind turbines are going to take a helluva lot of disposing of when they are broken. They ruin acre after acre of our landscape. Here in windy Britain, the ruddy things don't turn half the time. Tidal barrages frequently destroy wildlife habitats.

 

What alarms be and makes me concerned for the future of the Western world is not just external threat, but the internal threat of rushing headlong into all this wanting to change society, everything must go, without any concrete thought about what you want to replace it with. And frankly, I find the statement below EXTREMELY disturbing;-

 

"They, the Banks, the Corporations, and the Politicians that allow them to do this must be removed from power, in the end by any means necessary for the survival of the human race, because these entities are, by all possible definitions, MONSTERS."

 

It sounds to me like an incitement to violence.

Well, I can see that this is a knee-jerk response. And that's to be expected, so please don't take anything I say too personally. I find this all extremely disturbing too. And sorry for the long post!

 

I can tell by the speed with which you replied that you didn't really examine the information I linked. Your statements only confirm that. For example, I never said people have to go back to being peasants or any drivel like that. You invented that to confirm your distaste towards what you call "utopian" ideas. That's just misguided propaganda by you and I think it's unworthy in a debate, just like stock phrases of death and taxes.

 

It seems you haven't read all of what I wrote, either, only picking out in a knee-jerk way what goes against your grain. I gave no incitements to violence as you intend it. We have many means possible of changing the status quo. In the end, people will have to act with all means necessary and by all means necessary to take out those that are ruining the world. Hitler was a monster. Banks and multinational corporations are doing things to the world that outstrip even him. I know it's unpleasant to think of these things but someone has to.

 

If someone is stangling you...and they keep strangling you...what do you do, ginnyfizz? Answer me that. In the end, are you not going to get violent? Of course you are, and I think you'll do it pretty quickly.

 

I know people do. It's my job.

 

I preceded all predictions of violence by the hope and truthful realization that everything can and will be done peacefully. My whole post started with that and ended in how I fear it will happen...unless we do nothing and just let all of humanity come to an end. People will, in the end, do everything necessary to survive. You think differently? You think we should just sit back as the world burns and never lift a hand to stop it or something?

 

I never said to go en masse into someone's house and hang them by the nearest tree. That would be an incitement to murder. However, by changing the very nature of the system on which these mosnters depend would very effectively destroy them by changing the very definition of what they are and what they do to be so defined. People won't do that, though. They will wait most likely until they will be forced to take a violent hand.

 

Enlightened self-defense creates a situation in which an attack cannot even arise. I gave one very clear and complete example of such a situation that if you would have studied it, without bias or prejudice ("Utopian" statements show prejudice, as if I'm talking about the Fairy Godmother running Parliament), you wouldn't have so quickly or easily wrote what you did, Ginnyfizz. You and I agree on quite a few issues, from what I've seen, but I don't think you've examined this one too well.

 

You seem to propose...what instead? It doesn't seem to me like you have any ideas on this except somewhat retaining the status quo until we are all dead, or returning to the middle ages of pre-industrialized society. I reject both of those ideas as useless and negative.

 

Here is my actual personal opinion on what we should do to take out the bad guys, and they are bad guys, don't fool yourself. I would personally like to see Banks and Corporations tried in courts for the criminal and Monstrous acts that they perpetuate against people, humanity and the world. We do it against everybody else! Why should they be any different? Are they special, messianic or above the law?

 

I only see a lack of concrete thought on your part in this argument. The things I've listed have had concrete thought put into them for decades by brilliant minds. Not by me, by them. They're not my ideas, I only brought them here. If you think there's nothing concrete there, it only proves you haven't actually studied it.

 

My only point was that something has to be done to change the way the world goes around. Nothing new there. If we do it peacefully and soon, great...but if we wait, and we want to keep surviving as a race, the longer we wait, the crazier it will have to get in order to set things right. In the end, it will be doing everything necessary in order to survive. That is human nature. not opinion and not my suggestion to go out and murder bankers. People literally turn to cannibalism to survive various situations, for Santa's sake...

 

I personally think the survival of the human race is the most important thing we have to think of. How can anyone possibly think otherwise? What kind of madness is that? We have a whole range of options ahead of us. However, knowing us...

Edited January 30, 2011 by WizardOfAtlantis

[ginnyfizz]

As a matter of fact, I did read the stuff that you linked which is why I used the word EITHER. I find this Mr Fresco sounds quite disturbing - a social engineer, indeed. Talking of getting rid of the money system and regarding everything as common heritage of everyone. You are never going to get everyone to be the same homogenous types. He talks all the time in absolutes and the perfect situation. Not going to happen. Human nature is human nature.

 

My problem is not with the idea that we have to change the way we live, but what we replace it with, and that we do not in our haste do more harm with the new order than we did with the old. We have got ourselves into a mess with, for example, pollution in our rivers and watercourses. However, we are better informed and have begun to learn - our rivers in Britain, for example, are much cleaner now. Heavier fines for industrial and agricultural pollution have played as big a part as any. The point being, that there does not always have to be a huge physical change and throwing out of what we have, but a difference in the way we use and apply it.

 

And you used the term "by any means necessary" and this, whichever way you look at it, sounds like an incitement to violence. Perhaps you should have used the phrase by any legal means possible. I repeat, you know very well that I hold no brief for the bankers and, working as I do with people who are unemployed, maybe as a result of the action of these asses, I seethe with anger when they award themselves their big fat bonuses for doing nothing good. But the bankers a la lanterneisn't going to work either (rather like the accent grave on my keyboard, duh!)- that would not save the human race, merely satisfy a primitive bloodlust. Comparing these guys to someone who is actually physically assaulting you just doesn't wash.

[WizardOfAtlantis]

As a matter of fact, I did read the stuff that you linked which is why I used the word EITHER. I find this Mr Fresco sounds quite disturbing - a social engineer, indeed. Talking of getting rid of the money system and regarding everything as common heritage of everyone. You are never going to get everyone to be the same homogenous types. He talks all the time in absolutes and the perfect situation. Not going to happen. Human nature is human nature.

 

My problem is not with the idea that we have to change the way we live, but what we replace it with, and that we do not in our haste do more harm with the new order than we did with the old. We have got ourselves into a mess with, for example, pollution in our rivers and watercourses. However, we are better informed and have begun to learn - our rivers in Britain, for example, are much cleaner now. Heavier fines for industrial and agricultural pollution have played as big a part as any. The point being, that there does not always have to be a huge physical change and throwing out of what we have, but a difference in the way we use and apply it.

 

And you used the term "by any means necessary" and this, whichever way you look at it, sounds like an incitement to violence. Perhaps you should have used the phrase by any legal means possible. I repeat, you know very well that I hold no brief for the bankers and, working as I do with people who are unemployed, maybe as a result of the action of these asses, I seethe with anger when they award themselves their big fat bonuses for doing nothing good. But the bankers a la lanterneisn't going to work either (rather like the accent grave on my keyboard, duh!)- that would not save the human race, merely satisfy a primitive bloodlust. Comparing these guys to someone who is actually physically assaulting you just doesn't wash.

You have to aim high if you want to hit something, ginnyfizz. That's why people talk in absolutes. To get an ideological point across. The practicalities are there, too, in his case even if personally I don't agree with all of them. Like I said, it was only an idea I was putting forth.

 

When someone translates any or all means necessary into immediate violence and nothing else, I think that says more of the person saying it than anything else. I gave many examples, and yes, ginnyfizz, you are actually being assaulted, it's only happening in ways that aren't as obvious as someone's hands on your throat. It doesn't wash to you because you want to distance yourself from what's being done to the world, perhaps? I don't know. How literal does it have to be for you to feel assaulted? I'm curious.

 

You do realize the literal effects that the banking system (the IMF, World Bank, etc) and the multinational corporations have on the world, right? This things aren't someone's opinions, least of all mine.

 

People are, by true human nature, disinclined to violence. And that's a good thing. I see in my students, time and time again, a reluctance to do certain things in practice, even faking it against imaginary attackers, because of it. It takes training to get them to put certain technical considerations into their head, even if their "aggressor" is a would-be murderer or rapist. In real life, of course, they would not have such scruples, but when they can think, they like to pretend they do.

 

 

edit: and if anything, I think it should be obvious that I'm inciting self-defence, if anything.

Edited January 30, 2011 by WizardOfAtlantis

[ginnyfizz]

No, you misrepresent what I am saying. "By any means necessary" is a very sweeping statement which includes, but is not limited to, physical violence. Therefore, your statement constitutes a potential incitement to violence, which is why I suggested that the term "legal" should have been in there.

 

*Dusts off her lawyers wig and legal dictionary* the definition of assault, and the way I understand it, is this;-

 

"the crime or tort of threatening or attempting to inflict immediate offensive physical contact or bodily harm that one has the present ability to inflict and that puts the victim in fear of such harm or contact " (Websters Legal Dictionary.)

 

THAT's what makes me feel assaulted. The actions of the multi nationals and bankers make me feel pissed off, and that they should be held to account, but not assaulted. And yes, I have been on this earth quite long enough to have observed their disgraceful shenanigans, and seen my own Government go cap in hand to them but hey...that was because the said Government had fouled up economically in a rather big way. You can't blame everything on the bogeyman called Globalization.

[WizardOfAtlantis]

No, you misrepresent what I am saying. "By any means necessary" is a very sweeping statement which includes, but is not limited to, physical violence. Therefore, your statement constitutes a potential incitement to violence, which is why I suggested that the term "legal" should have been in there.

 

*Dusts off her lawyers wig and legal dictionary* the definition of assault, and the way I understand it, is this;-

 

"the crime or tort of threatening or attempting to inflict immediate offensive physical contact or bodily harm that one has the present ability to inflict and that puts the victim in fear of such harm or contact " (Websters Legal Dictionary.)

 

THAT's what makes me feel assaulted. The actions of the multi nationals and bankers make me feel pissed off, and that they should be held to account, but not assaulted. And yes, I have been on this earth quite long enough to have observed their disgraceful shenanigans, and seen my own Government go cap in hand to them but hey...that was because the said Government had fouled up economically in a rather big way. You can't blame everything on the bogeyman called Globalization.

Ah, all right. I see your point. I hereby officially agree with you on that http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/thumbsup.gif and should have put legal in there. I stand corrected.http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/smile.gif

 

My end-game descriptions anyway will or would happen when there won't be law to begin with http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/nuke.gif but I guess I failed at making that clear.http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/wallbash.gif

 

 

I have the bad habit of speaking ideologically and not getting my point across, it seems, in a well-enough described way.

 

I do think some of these things fit your description of assault, however. If the government is putting (by allowing or legally condoning) toxins into the water and food I am drinking (a very concrete reality here in Italy), then are they not responsible for actively poisoning me? Giving me cancer? Killing me? What happens when they continue to poison the earth so much that entire regions are toxic? (another reality here In Italy) When large portions of people are dying off and they won't stop (still reality here)? What do you do? Italian water runs off into the Mediterranean, which runs into...

 

Like I said, I want people to actively defend themselves. The truest defence is to create a situation where the attack doesn't arise to begin with, and the most effective martial art is one that teaches you not to fight against your opponent. I guess I will leave it at that, because those are actually my personal opinions on these things.

 

 

 

[RobCoPublicReassurance]

I am optimistic about it, simply because western culture is infectious. People love freedom to do whatever the damn well please, regardless of if it is good for them or not. You have to totally shield your people from western culture like North Korea does to keep them from wanting freedom of choice and all the other "Enlightenment ideas" out there.