Who are the real terrorists?

[RZ1029]

You're including war-time actions into this. There are exceptions lain out in the Constitution under the 'necessary but proper' clause that allows for some of these things. That being said, I have no problem with torture, and I'm not really sure it was ever outlawed, except in the Geneva Convention, which isn't legally binding by the nature that there is no armed body to enforce it. They are the rules of a gentleman's war, which is not currently being fought.

 

As for the various Muslim-related things: you are guaranteed the right to practice it, you are not guaranteed acceptance of your practice. The hatred is due to ignorance and stupidity on the part of Americans, wholly and completely.

 

4) Wire tapping? If your wires are being tapped, chances are you're up to something. I don't care if the police hear what plans I made for dinner next Tuesday. I don't even care if they hear that my grandmother's currently suffering from bone cancer. Airport security can frisk away, I've got nothing to hide. They're always arrested without trial, but whether they go to prison without trial is a different story entirely. Seizure of property is often involved in arrests, depending upon the situation, the arrest, et cetera.

 

8 ) Again, war-time allowances. It's being done to enemy combatants, not civilians.

 

9) I understand why people would be bothered, but I'm not. I've been to college, I'd run through the terminal naked if I had to.

 

As for the ownership of weapons. It's still important, and besides, if it came to any sort of rebellion, we're not about to line up and match their force. You fight the gorilla war that the US has never been able to win. You bring the Vietnam war to America and you fight it that way. All the helicopters and fighter jets can't win a war if you can't find the enemy. As for taking out a tank, I could probably come up with an idea if you gave me some time and a reason. I lived out in the country, we fish with dynamite and C4... (not really, but I'm no stranger to either of them)

[marharth]

Illegal wire tapping still violates the 4th amendment, it doesn't matter if it effects your or not.

 

Torture is not only morally wrong, it doesn't work.

 

As I said, states are trying to outlaw certain Muslim things.

 

It makes sense to capture enemy combatants without trial, but its not legal to capture people just due to suspecting them of being a terrorist.

 

EX: If a guy is firing a ak47 at you and you capture him, of course that is fine.

 

However if you see someone and think they might be a terrorist, you can't capture them without trial.

 

 

About the gun rights, I went a bit overboard. I agree with you, but I still think it won't do much good by itself.

[HappyHerring]

Whoo hoo, so Maharth, it is not acceptable to arrest a person based on the suspicion of terrorism.

 

Copper: "Sorry sir, though you have a suicide vest and a video proclaiming your actions to be against the west based on a totalitarian ideology, you have not actually killed anyone yet and so I can merely suspect that you are a terrorist. If you wish me to arrest you please come back when you have successfully detonated a device and then I will be able to arrest you for an actual offence".

 

Please do not proceed to bore me on the absurd basis of your assumption that anyone involved in this debate is American, the tedium of your parochial concerns threatens to curtail the interest of oh so many who read these posts. This may amaze you but the whole world does not sweat itself over politically appointed judges interpreting a document framed for a society which was just about to enter the industrial revolution, if we wished such entertainment based on obsolete societies we would look for the more obvious comedy of the Iranian courts :yucky:

[Aurielius]

Whoo hoo, so Maharth, it is not acceptable to arrest a person based on the suspicion of terrorism.

 

Copper: "Sorry sir, though you have a suicide vest and a video proclaiming your actions to be against the west based on a totalitarian ideology, you have not actually killed anyone yet and so I can merely suspect that you are a terrorist. If you wish me to arrest you please come back when you have successfully detonated a device and then I will be able to arrest you for an actual offence".

 

Please do not proceed to bore me on the absurd basis of your assumption that anyone involved in this debate is American, the tedium of your parochial concerns threatens to curtail the interest of oh so many who read these posts. This may amaze you but the whole world does not sweat itself over politically appointed judges interpreting a document framed for a society which was just about to enter the industrial revolution, if we wished such entertainment based on obsolete societies we would look for the more obvious comedy of the Iranian courts :yucky:

 

@happyPig

If you can hear the sounds of laughter wafting accross the Atlantic and lapping up on the shores of Wales, that would be me...

[HappyHerring]

Much as I may disagree with both of you on occassion, I find both you Aurelius and ginnyfizz to be the most cogent and reasonable posters. Go Navy!:thumbsup:

[marharth]

Whoo hoo, so Maharth, it is not acceptable to arrest a person based on the suspicion of terrorism.

 

Copper: "Sorry sir, though you have a suicide vest and a video proclaiming your actions to be against the west based on a totalitarian ideology, you have not actually killed anyone yet and so I can merely suspect that you are a terrorist. If you wish me to arrest you please come back when you have successfully detonated a device and then I will be able to arrest you for an actual offence".

 

Please do not proceed to bore me on the absurd basis of your assumption that anyone involved in this debate is American, the tedium of your parochial concerns threatens to curtail the interest of oh so many who read these posts. This may amaze you but the whole world does not sweat itself over politically appointed judges interpreting a document framed for a society which was just about to enter the industrial revolution, if we wished such entertainment based on obsolete societies we would look for the more obvious comedy of the Iranian courts :yucky:

I made this topic as a American debate, if anyone else wanted to join in that's not my issue. I am not sure how you missed that I made this topic as a American debate. Seeing as its a American debate, it has to do with American law. The "document" was written during and after the times of the industrial revolution as well. The amendments were obviously not written in during the first writing of the Constitution. Not to mention that the Constitution was written for the future as well.

 

You completely misread what I said, or didn't bother to read all of it.

 

Of course someone should be arrested if they are suspected of terrorism. They should also get a fair trial, and that's not happening.

 

I don't know where you got "We can't arrest people we think are terrorists" from what I said, but next time make sure you read it better.

 

@Aurielius Please try to not post off topic, if you want to post in the topic at least contribute to what he was saying.

Edited February 24, 2011 by marharth

[HappyHerring]

I would like to make a topic about our modern day enemy, terrorists. We chase after them no matter what, we take away personal freedom and rights to "protect" against them.

 

I am going to try to make this short, hopefully the discussion can expand on itself.

 

Let me start with saying the reasons we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

The reasons we invaded Afghanistan might be justified by some, I never liked the war but ill keep going.

1. The Taliban WAS helping Al Queda.

 

That's all I can think of for that... Now does this mean we should go attack them just because we got bombed? The point of terrorism is to spread fear through violence. The people who bombed us are WINNING by being in a war with us. We did what they wanted us to do, be afraid and attack back. To be afraid and take away freedom and rights...

 

Now why did we invade Iraq? This is a much more serious issue...

1. Bush claimed they were making weapons of mass destruction, or already had them. It was proven they were not even CONSIDERING making them.

 

2. Bush claimed Saddam Hussein was working with Al Queda, which is 100 percent false.

 

3. To "free" the people from the rule of Saddam Hussein. This IS a valid reason, but its not a imperfect nations job to free other countries. If the USA was close to perfect I would fully support the act of nation building and non violent take overs.

 

4. To gather intelligence on terrorist groups. This is also a false reason, since there were no major terrorists groups in Iraq strongly associated with Al Qeuda.

 

The real answer to both of the above things is the following...

1. Help military contractors get richer.

2. Make money off foreign oil.

3. Help Israel wipe out Iraq for not wanting to work with them.

 

 

Guess this isn't going to be so short then... Now onto the topics title.

 

We invaded the countries in attempt to wipe out terrorism, what have we really done? The people of Afghanistan DO NOT want our help anymore. They are happy as they are now, and they are siding with the Taliban to get us out!

 

Think about that for a second, innocent people are siding with the Taliban, simply to get us out of their country. Yet we still insist we are helping them?

 

 

We kill innocent people everyday because of the war, and people still support the wars?

 

That being said, I am calling every single person who supports the war right now a terrorist. Just because your on the side of the "good guys" doesn't mean you really are a good guy. I am not saying the other terrorist groups are not bad, but the USA is the biggest terrorist group in the world now.

 

 

Discuss?

 

 

News: wasn't only the U.S. who entered Afghanistan, check it up!

If this is a U.S. only topic and not a 'Western' topic please state it to be so, 'cos us poor blighters who are not fortuntate to be born American and do all that patriotic flag waving saluting on going to school everyday might get uppity ideas and think that it is an open subject.:biggrin:

[marharth]

I would like to make a topic about our modern day enemy, terrorists. We chase after them no matter what, we take away personal freedom and rights to "protect" against them.

 

I am going to try to make this short, hopefully the discussion can expand on itself.

 

Let me start with saying the reasons we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

The reasons we invaded Afghanistan might be justified by some, I never liked the war but ill keep going.

1. The Taliban WAS helping Al Queda.

 

That's all I can think of for that... Now does this mean we should go attack them just because we got bombed? The point of terrorism is to spread fear through violence. The people who bombed us are WINNING by being in a war with us. We did what they wanted us to do, be afraid and attack back. To be afraid and take away freedom and rights...

 

Now why did we invade Iraq? This is a much more serious issue...

1. Bush claimed they were making weapons of mass destruction, or already had them. It was proven they were not even CONSIDERING making them.

 

2. Bush claimed Saddam Hussein was working with Al Queda, which is 100 percent false.

 

3. To "free" the people from the rule of Saddam Hussein. This IS a valid reason, but its not a imperfect nations job to free other countries. If the USA was close to perfect I would fully support the act of nation building and non violent take overs.

 

4. To gather intelligence on terrorist groups. This is also a false reason, since there were no major terrorists groups in Iraq strongly associated with Al Qeuda.

 

The real answer to both of the above things is the following...

1. Help military contractors get richer.

2. Make money off foreign oil.

3. Help Israel wipe out Iraq for not wanting to work with them.

 

 

Guess this isn't going to be so short then... Now onto the topics title.

 

We invaded the countries in attempt to wipe out terrorism, what have we really done? The people of Afghanistan DO NOT want our help anymore. They are happy as they are now, and they are siding with the Taliban to get us out!

 

Think about that for a second, innocent people are siding with the Taliban, simply to get us out of their country. Yet we still insist we are helping them?

 

 

We kill innocent people everyday because of the war, and people still support the wars?

 

That being said, I am calling every single person who supports the war right now a terrorist. Just because your on the side of the "good guys" doesn't mean you really are a good guy. I am not saying the other terrorist groups are not bad, but the USA is the biggest terrorist group in the world now.

 

 

Discuss?

 

 

News: wasn't only the U.S. who entered Afghanistan, check it up!

If this is a U.S. only topic and not a 'Western' topic please state it to be so, 'cos us poor blighters who are not fortuntate to be born American and do all that patriotic flag waving saluting on going to school everyday might get uppity ideas and think that it is an open subject.:biggrin:

The first post talked about the USA, and US presidents. I don't know why it would seem like it was a topic focused towards the US...

 

I am not a blind patriot or a stereotypical "USA IS NUMBER ONE" American. I just made the topic trying to focus on the US.

 

Next time ill make that more clear, sorry if anyone misunderstood it.

[Aurielius]

News: wasn't only the U.S. who entered Afghanistan, check it up!

If this is a U.S. only topic and not a 'Western' topic please state it to be so, 'cos us poor blighters who are not fortuntate to be born American and do all that patriotic flag waving saluting on going to school everyday might get uppity ideas and think that it is an open subject.:biggrin:

@Happypig

Please do not think all Americans are so parochial, I am happy to debate my European brethren any time, this is an open site after all..or at least that was my impression when I joined. Though I do a bit of flag waving on the 4th of July at your expense. :whistling:

[HappyHerring]

I would like to make a topic about our modern day enemy, terrorists. We chase after them no matter what, we take away personal freedom and rights to "protect" against them.

 

I am going to try to make this short, hopefully the discussion can expand on itself.

 

Let me start with saying the reasons we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

The reasons we invaded Afghanistan might be justified by some, I never liked the war but ill keep going.

1. The Taliban WAS helping Al Queda.

 

That's all I can think of for that... Now does this mean we should go attack them just because we got bombed? The point of terrorism is to spread fear through violence. The people who bombed us are WINNING by being in a war with us. We did what they wanted us to do, be afraid and attack back. To be afraid and take away freedom and rights...

 

Now why did we invade Iraq? This is a much more serious issue...

1. Bush claimed they were making weapons of mass destruction, or already had them. It was proven they were not even CONSIDERING making them.

 

2. Bush claimed Saddam Hussein was working with Al Queda, which is 100 percent false.

 

3. To "free" the people from the rule of Saddam Hussein. This IS a valid reason, but its not a imperfect nations job to free other countries. If the USA was close to perfect I would fully support the act of nation building and non violent take overs.

 

4. To gather intelligence on terrorist groups. This is also a false reason, since there were no major terrorists groups in Iraq strongly associated with Al Qeuda.

 

The real answer to both of the above things is the following...

1. Help military contractors get richer.

2. Make money off foreign oil.

3. Help Israel wipe out Iraq for not wanting to work with them.

 

 

Guess this isn't going to be so short then... Now onto the topics title.

 

We invaded the countries in attempt to wipe out terrorism, what have we really done? The people of Afghanistan DO NOT want our help anymore. They are happy as they are now, and they are siding with the Taliban to get us out!

 

Think about that for a second, innocent people are siding with the Taliban, simply to get us out of their country. Yet we still insist we are helping them?

 

 

We kill innocent people everyday because of the war, and people still support the wars?

 

That being said, I am calling every single person who supports the war right now a terrorist. Just because your on the side of the "good guys" doesn't mean you really are a good guy. I am not saying the other terrorist groups are not bad, but the USA is the biggest terrorist group in the world now.

 

 

Discuss?

 

 

News: wasn't only the U.S. who entered Afghanistan, check it up!

If this is a U.S. only topic and not a 'Western' topic please state it to be so, 'cos us poor blighters who are not fortuntate to be born American and do all that patriotic flag waving saluting on going to school everyday might get uppity ideas and think that it is an open subject.:biggrin:

The first post talked about the USA, and US presidents. I don't know why it would seem like it was a topic focused towards the US...

 

I am not a blind patriot or a stereotypical "USA IS NUMBER ONE" American. I just made the topic trying to focus on the US.

 

Next time ill make that more clear, sorry if anyone misunderstood it.

you

Excuse me for being obtuse but there is such a thing as a stereotypical "USA is not number one", forgive me for assuming from your many posts that you are such a being.

 

P.S. Aurelius, two of my favourite anthems are the U.S. and French. Let's remember after all that the events of those times were carried on by peoples of those times and it is up to us wherever we are to strive to equal them if possible!:thumbsup: