HappyHerring

The purpose of arranged marriage has always been about the relationships between families and branches of families rather than the individuals being married. There are numerous studies reflecting on the practice, we see it reflected as far back as classical Greece. The need to trade wealth and status and favours between branches of family ensure that the cultural practices have a big stake for the participants. The costs apart from what is in many cases a life of misery for all involved can mean generation after generation of close cousins marrying each other and producing levels of inbreeding and deformity above and beyond any found in European royalty. A case in point in the U.K. where Pakistanis following such cultural traits are reported to have five times the level of birth deformities above other elements of the population! :facepalm:

I'm desperately concerned, I envision the tedium of bits of fluff reporting on news channels and I have even more reason than ever to avoid the channel filling gunk which qualifies for magazine tv. Also, I'm debating whether to have any sympathy for anyone who decides to dispose of worldly goods, end relationships or give people a bit of their mind due to the fact that the apocalypse means there will be no comeback... actually thinking about it .........:whistling:

Other Greeks viewed the Spartiates as cool, the Samurai viewed themselves as cool. Most cool people I've seen wouldn't lift a finger to save a life as it would look as if they cared about a thing other than they're image. To View yourself as being above others and cultivating a sense of detatchment from people, objects or ideas which do not actively promote your vanity does not seem a tempting approach to life to me. If being uncool is caring then I'm happy to separate myself from the sociopaths and egoists.

The fact is, I don't support autocrat regimes, I support iron law, that is just one of the many segments in one regime. I wouldn't kill my political opponents if I were a ruler, nor I would put them in prison or have them expelled from the country. If people aren't satisfied with my rule, I would step down, without waiting for elections to take care of me. But if a mass gathers and wants your head for no reason, calling their meeting a peaceful revolution, then I would act seriously. No killing innocents or killing at all if it is not needed, such rigorous ways are the last option in dealing with those kind of situations. Why would anyone kill people if not provoked and pushed over the limit with a situation which is life threatening? I'd sent some serious police force and impose some discipline, until we sit down and to resolve the situation peacefully. And yes, Serbs were massacred in Vojvodina. By a foreign <<<<< force, not internal one. They were killed on direct order of Hitler and the rest of Axis gang. They were killed in ways beyond a nightmare. Gaddafi didn't threw his people in a frozen river, nor he made them to swallow rusty nails, neither called on a mass rape or killing little kids with hammers, for no reason. He didn't kill 70 000 people for his own amusement. He is fighting a war over there, and in war, people die. On both sides. They die from bullets , shells, mines, etc. They don't have to torture each other just to be dead, they shoot on each other , simple as that. He did a fair game tonight. Offered the rebels to leave the country in peace. And I do believe that many of them will leave their strongholds without worrying about their lives. He could have call upon a total extermination, but he didn't. That makes him different then the dictators you think he is connected with. Describing like you do, I imagine someone like Pol Pot, not Gaddafi. And there is a huuuuge difference between the two. Libyan war is over tomorrow, hopefully, and I do hope that people will walk Libya freely again and to work their jobs and spend time with families. It is a long road to recover, but it can be done with a good will and dedication . Moranda He's fighting a war against his own people, he's killing them so he can cling on to power. The term "Despot" fits him prefectly. I feel sorry for those who stood up to him, no doubt they will soon be disappeared. Actually, rebels fired a first shot and police responded with force, then rebels started to rob the stores and to steal weaponry from the police stations and army bases, with many of them being armed already. 'Despot' is not a term, it is a title of a ruler in Byzantine Empire and Serbian Empire from medieval times. It defines someone who is a huge land owner, not a dictator or an autocrat. I must admit that I have always found the Russian sponsored idea of pan slavic solidarity odd when I look at how historically they have suppressed the desires of other slavic peoples. How would you decide that you were past the point where your rule was effective or just if you not only refused to listen to the point of views of your opponents but were prepared to put them into prison purely due to the fact that they opposed you. I would so much love to think that you were joking with us, but having seen some views expressed by contributors from the balkans and Turkey contributors in different forums, I have to say that I think that at best the Libyans and Serbs are misinformed or the west in general is wrongly informed . Considering the amount of venom I have seen I from the denizens of the balkans and anatolia in different forums I have to say I have my opinion and it has not been modified by your contributions to this topic.

This argument is applicable to any nation which has significant economic and or political influence throughout the world. If they stop to think for a few moments most people in the west would agree that the Chinese sytem of governance and the conditions of the Chinese workers are appalling, so why aren't we intervening there? Apart from war and a complete collapse of the current economic system in the world what do we have to loose? Throughout the world there are many states whom we find objectionable, should we act on our consciences and destroy our economic sytem for those consciences? In the seventies we had vast increases in the costs of petroleum derived products in part due to American 'interference' in the middle east, we still live with the results even now. To those who argue that maybe the quick ending of our dependence of oil would be worth the dislocation I would ask how in the time between such chaos and viable non internal combution transport and electrical production would we transport our food and heat and light our hospitals? Just as the oil hikes of the seventies promoted a temporary and token attempt to move toward other energy sources so would our pious attempts at regulating the affairs of other nations produce platitudes and small budget increases for R&D departments. We would still be dependent on the unsavoury successors to the unsavoury people we removed and would have also caused catastrophic reduction in our own nations' economic viability and political standing in the world communtity, that is unless we were to do away with the equal rights of poorer and third world nations in world discourse. So would could end up a few decades down the line with the very neocolonialist system so many argue exists today :sad: The problem of having to appeal to dictators could be solved by making efforts to use alternative fuel sources. I believe with current technology, it is more than feasible to develop cars that run off very, very cheap sources of energy, but we are at the mercy of the people with the money, and the people with the money would rather us be slaves to an energy supply that they control and profit from. This is what is hindering technological innovation, not the lack of smart people to develop the technology. If all the sudden cars could run on lets say, water, it would create a vacuum in the market where a once multi-billion dollar industry used to be, that hired 10s of thousands of people. As long as there is a supply of oil to sell, it will be used as a fuel source for cars, and we will be at the whim of the people who control the supply and those who speculate the market. It is feasible to use water as a fuel source, if an efficient process was created to turn water into hydrogen, which is highly combustible: http://www.ehow.com/...r-hydrogen.html This technology applied to automobiles would put the dictators out of business, but it would also put service stations out of business, and also a multi-billion dollar industry out of business, and millions of people around the world out of work. If we find a cheap way to crack water to liberate the hydrogen (where would the electricity come from?) and develop the vehicles and generators to run on it then who would be in the best place to profit from the process? Yes the massive companies which control so many production and distribution processes are very conservative but I think that if someone else came up with a means and they could rely on government tax incentives then they would jump for it. By the way cheap is relative, how long before the differential on taxes for hydrogen matched and surpassed petroleum, not long is my guess. Multi nationals and governments both want our cash and each would benefit from the investment to embrace the new technology. Unfortunately I suspect that by the time such technology were widespread the oil producing countries would be well past the production available today and so the net result for them would be increasing, relative, poverty and impotence which would feed into the continuance of the misery of today.

The Persians stole from the Lydians, the Greeks stole from the Persians, the Romans stole from the Greeks, the Germanic and asian barbarians stole from the Romans. Wherever we look there are cultural artifacts which could only exist through those thefts. Should modern Greeks feel guilty for the desecration of the Achamaenid empire and the wholesale looting of incredible amounts of gold, silver etc? Where does guilt end, should the modern Greek state or the modern British state feel obliged to expiate the sins of people who are either long dead or in old age. People should be responsible for their own actions and take blame for what they do. If I had voted tory this time or New Labour last time then I would have some real responsibility for my government's actions. History is as broad a subject as there are historians and and we should each look into history as we wish, from what I can see setting an agenda for one group or race's history is just another way for somewhat untalented bureaucrats and historians to ensure that they have a consistent source of expenses and kudos. Oh Ginnyfizz I don't know if you recall but during the nineties the NME equated Welsh pride with fascism, ironic isn't it that the most neglected people of the UK get clobbered as soon as they get uppity and raise their heads above the parapet :biggrin:

Personally I'm a touch dubious about the country music but this site is a broad church. Good fortune in life and enjoy yourself here. :thumbsup:

Hiya, have fun and stay legal & you are bound to enjoy yourself here. I look forward to meeting you in the forums and if you post any pics or mods.:biggrin:

This argument is applicable to any nation which has significant economic and or political influence throughout the world. If they stop to think for a few moments most people in the west would agree that the Chinese sytem of governance and the conditions of the Chinese workers are appalling, so why aren't we intervening there? Apart from war and a complete collapse of the current economic system in the world what do we have to loose? Throughout the world there are many states whom we find objectionable, should we act on our consciences and destroy our economic sytem for those consciences? In the seventies we had vast increases in the costs of petroleum derived products in part due to American 'interference' in the middle east, we still live with the results even now. To those who argue that maybe the quick ending of our dependence of oil would be worth the dislocation I would ask how in the time between such chaos and viable non internal combution transport and electrical production would we transport our food and heat and light our hospitals? Just as the oil hikes of the seventies promoted a temporary and token attempt to move toward other energy sources so would our pious attempts at regulating the affairs of other nations produce platitudes and small budget increases for R&D departments. We would still be dependent on the unsavoury successors to the unsavoury people we removed and would have also caused catastrophic reduction in our own nations' economic viability and political standing in the world communtity, that is unless we were to do away with the equal rights of poorer and third world nations in world discourse. So would could end up a few decades down the line with the very neocolonialist system so many argue exists today :sad:

A few months ago I played a mod of Rome Total War in which my Spartiate Greek Empire dominated everything on the modified map from Gadaria to Ireland except a rump Roman state which occupied territory within Europe east of what is now the current Polish border. In my playthrough I intended to create an alternate history in which the deadening hand of Rome had not dominated western eurasia and destroyed learning. Sure I reckoned, so my Spartiate state was reactionary but my Spartiates would be at the frontiers, this would allow a war of Greek independence to roar through the now hellenised eurasia and beckon in a second golden age of greek culture and so reducing the misery of barbarism, disease and poverty by many centuries. This would have happened without a death of system total PC Apocalypse which also erased my Bethesda games. Total War games are among the few which allow us to redress the wrongs of history, within a safe gaming environment, and say wow, what if? From the first Shogun Total War until today, Total War is the closest we get to gaming Historica What If? Total Freedom.

I find it hard to reconcile a an insightful and intelligent person as you describe Colonel Ghaddafi as being with the same Ghaddafi who spent much of his nation's wealth providing arms, ammunition, training as well as cash support for "poor and righteous rebels" over the past four decades. If "poor and righteous rebels" are wrong in the instances you illustrate are they not wrong in all cases. Such being the case then any politty which exists in this world as a result of rebellion in past times is illegitimate and should return to the 'loving arms' of their previous overlords. Welcome back Americashire and Republic of Irelandshire etc as all is forgiven! :dry:

My shopping list: Nails & planks of wood for barricading Shotgun & shells & chainsaw for you know what Food Water not alcohol as I'd rather not go the I am legend route of self destruction Portable generator & fuel Bug spray I guess I could use these in a hurry so if you have any other suggestions I'd welcome them. :sick:

I agree that no one will miss Gaddafi either in the west or the near east and would like us to take a pass if possible but I still remember Lockerbie (had a friend on that flight). So if and when that maniac gets his just deserts I will not shed a tear. If the recent leaks relating to the fact that Gaddafi personally ordered the bombing are true then I hope his trip to hell is sooner rather than later and I don't mind who pulls the trigger on him. I agree that no one would miss him and the world would probably be a happier place, I just think that the ability of arab leaders to bluster and be hypocritical is beyond even that of our dear leaders and that they are indeed experts in biting the hand that feeds. The pride which americans hold in throwing off a ruthless and blood drenched imperial overlord shines through today as does the noble french pride in throwing off the unwanted guests from Paris just a few decades ago. It will cost a lot of blood but it may well be worth it for future libyans if they can use the cost of liberation to motivate themselves to defend a true democratic Libya. :whistling:

Typhoons from RAF Akrotiri are what they're planning on using, the Harrier is no good, that's being taken out of service anyway. Honestly if this doesn't convince the government to rethink the defence cuts then nothing will, this is small incident quite close to home and we're struggling, what happens if something bigger happens further away? There is a lot of oil around the Falklands, I'm worried if push comes to shove we wouldn't be able to defend them in the future. Imagine the anger which would supperate over the next few decades if western imperialists were to take out an arab leader. Let us remember that a client of the U.S. such as the president of Yemen can blame the American and Israeli governments for dissension in his state. We in the west need to allow this to work out in it's own terms. The pride which could come to a democratic country in the region would promote civic society and good governance far better than a cruise missile.

Just as 'gay' has a commonly accepted meaning today why should we not assume that a younger female in twenty years time might have difficulty accepting the label 'girl' as she has for her lifetime accepted a different label and besides which the term 'girl' is known in her time to be a non sex-specifiec term for a 'wuss' or incapable person? :dry:

If we had to be cryogenically suspended to get there then the world/culture we might wish to return to would in all probability not exist in the state we would wish to return to. So I suppose the best thing to do would be what humanity has done for the last two hundred thousand years or so and make the best of the situation. I mean seriously, any society which could sustain the services you mention in the long term would have to be competent economically and developmentally :happy:

Well, possibly due to being told it's "unladylike" and "girls shouldn't like exploding things". Then there's the issue that there are plenty of horror stories about sexist atmospheres in online games--can be as simple as a bunch of guys calling each other "girly" as an insult, or sexist jokes. Let us remember that our language is not immutable, Rather than throwing around prejucices (I'm sure you don't) why don't we consider that other interpretations of 'girly' are possibly current which interpret the word to mean such as 'squealy' or 'panicky' or maybe 'non survival beneficial'? I merely offer the suggestion. :mellow:

Hmm.... that sounds awfully familiar... :rolleyes: Hopefully it will not come to that. It wouldn't surprise me in the least. Hey people, let's not be patronising here. We should also remember China and the need they have for resources and the much 'celebrated' non-judgmental attitude to african nations who perhaps do not display the commitment to civil and human rights which we paternalistic neocolonialist westerners hold. ;)

I am hoping for the best. I hope that there are those among the Libyan etc peoples of the region who want the best for the region. I don't expect the best but I will keep hoping.

I think you confuse a blend of incompetence, opportunism and hindsight for conspiracy. As for a previous poster's comments about not identifying with or caring about the lives of others who happen to have slightly differing skin pigmentation, accent or language, I think that i'll have to tell my manager at the local Oxfam Bookshop that I won't be able volunteer anymore as it's been pointed out to me that I lack sympathy with the people who are the beneficiaries of our efforts. Of course I could refer the poster to previous posts on other both this and other threads which are explicit in showing that I have a basic knowledge of group dynamics in identification for self support and self image boosting purposes.

People like those you are arguing against would simply say those are unfortunate consequences of war, whether it was necessary to wage the war or not, is irrelevant to them. What they really mean is that they don't care if 'brown' people are killed. I think sometimes people are blind to their own racism, nationalism, etc. It is very persistent in the American populace in general. Many years ago when my Korean girlfriend first moved to the US (in the Midwest) she was stared at, made fun of and really pushed out of the opportunity to socialise and become accepted. She still has mental scars from that time. I doubt the people who taunted her considered themselves racists. Basically, this scene from Seven sums it up like you have done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snxgxpVyt6Y Thanks for pointing out to me that I'm less than concerned about the fate of brown skinned people. After this post I'd better get on the phone to my half West Indian cousins, I'm not sure how they will take my revealing myself to be a closet racist. After that I'll have to get on to my wife's half Iranian cousins ditto. I in no way view my country as right in everything, if anything I tend toward the more critical approach. I am not a British nationalist and any person from these islands should be able to tell you that the term British is ambiguous with each of the indigenous peoples using the term in a different manner, let alone many of the immigrants of recent generations. Every culture or country which has, does and will exist will always be guilty of some offences. I agree that the Iraq war was unjustified not so the Afghan war. Reading about the recent marches to commemorate the Dresden bombing and the adoption of many Germans of the status of victimhood should remind us that people are responsible for the actions of their own societies, the Germans sowed the wind, the Afghans along with their mainly arab guest sowed the wind, we sowed the wind. We each in our own ways reap the whirlwind. In our case in the west many people struggled to avoid the Iraq war, but not hard enough so our governments took the stupid actions they took. There is no equivilance between western troops, some of whom go further than most would wish and the sometimes frankly sadistic foes in both countries where extreme torture of prisoners way beyond the scale of virtually all actions of some westerners. Ginnyfizz, I'm so embarrassed :blushing: my post was intended as support for yours and because I was in a rush to get out to do my regular Saturday voluntary shift I shortcutted and only quoted your post rather than multiquoting.