Who are the real terrorists?

[HappyHerring]

I couldn't agree with the OP more.

 

Tell the innocent people in Afghanistan that get killed by drone strikes that the USA military isn't a terrorist organization. Tell it to the people I have met from Lebanon who had to flee her country when her house was blown up with bombs supplied to Israel from the USA.

 

My friend was in special operations in Iraq. To acquire information he and his unit would raid suspected homes, and even force interrogate suspects at gun point after bursting in their room while the man is making love to his wife. Then with the given information they raided a complex housing militants in the city. After killing all the inhabitants they realized the house was wired to blow, and rather than report the casualties and have the place be searched after disarming the explosives they felt it easier to detonate then entire building and report to their superiors that the militants blew up the house upon their arrival. No code of conduct - no process - no organization, just brute force.

 

There have been far more civilian casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001 than were killed in the World Trade Center attack, both due to our bullets and bombs as well as the enemies.

 

Footage of American Soldiers killing unarmed civilians in Iraq:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25EWUUBjPMo

 

The military never apologized for this action. They actually tried to cover it up. And when Wikileaks released it, they all went scrambling to find a way to shut it down and arrest it's leader, Julian Assange.

 

What's worse is no one in America seems to care about this. Where is the uproar and the demand for justice from the American community as a whole? There is none. We are all just complacent to watch out American Idol, eat McDonalds and sit back while our nation and it's allies bulldoze their way across the Mid-East.

 

People like those you are arguing against would simply say those are unfortunate consequences of war, whether it was necessary to wage the war or not, is irrelevant to them. What they really mean is that they don't care if 'brown' people are killed.

 

I think sometimes people are blind to their own racism, nationalism, etc. It is very persistent in the American populace in general. Many years ago when my Korean girlfriend first moved to the US (in the Midwest) she was stared at, made fun of and really pushed out of the opportunity to socialise and become accepted. She still has mental scars from that time. I doubt the people who taunted her considered themselves racists.

 

Basically, this scene from Seven sums it up like you have done:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snxgxpVyt6Y

 

Thanks for pointing out to me that I'm less than concerned about the fate of brown skinned people. After this post I'd better get on the phone to my half West Indian cousins, I'm not sure how they will take my revealing myself to be a closet racist. After that I'll have to get on to my wife's half Iranian cousins ditto.

 

I in no way view my country as right in everything, if anything I tend toward the more critical approach. I am not a British nationalist and any person from these islands should be able to tell you that the term British is ambiguous with each of the indigenous peoples using the term in a different manner, let alone many of the immigrants of recent generations.

 

Every culture or country which has, does and will exist will always be guilty of some offences. I agree that the Iraq war was unjustified not so the Afghan war. Reading about the recent marches to commemorate the Dresden bombing and the adoption of many Germans of the status of victimhood should remind us that people are responsible for the actions of their own societies, the Germans sowed the wind, the Afghans along with their mainly arab guest sowed the wind, we sowed the wind. We each in our own ways reap the whirlwind. In our case in the west many people struggled to avoid the Iraq war, but not hard enough so our governments took the stupid actions they took. There is no equivilance between western troops, some of whom go further than most would wish and the sometimes frankly sadistic foes in both countries where extreme torture of prisoners way beyond the scale of virtually all actions of some westerners.

Ginnyfizz, I'm so embarrassed :blushing: my post was intended as support for yours and because I was in a rush to get out to do my regular Saturday voluntary shift I shortcutted and only quoted your post rather than multiquoting.

[ginnyfizz]

I rather hoped that, happy pig *bows and kudos to you for your riposte there.*.

[SpellAndShield]

This thread is going no where; there are two camps, those who think that endless foreign wars, foreign interventionism, installing puppet dictators, spending money we don't have when our countries are in massive debt are good things and should be continued into perpetuity and the other camp who doesn't think that. We should agree to disagree but felicitously your side will 'win' the argument because our governments will doubtless continue all of those things until they are totally broke and can't afford it anymore.

[marharth]

Not sure if anyone noticed but terrorists don't get fair trials in the USA, how could you possibly not be able to capture a terrorist due to a witness being threatened?

 

 

Also Stardusk was not calling you racist against blacks when he said that, he was saying that you don't care as much about people who are not inside of your "group".

 

I would have to say I agree the most with Stardusk and Fatalmasterpiece.

 

Really I agree a bit with everyone, even Ginny and Aurielius.

 

I think that the people who look at the USA as somewhat of terrorists do not like the war, and they think the deaths are completely unneeded, while the people who do not think the USA are support the war or beleive that the deaths are necessary.

 

That being said, I would like to know what everyone thinks about the wars. I think debating about the wars will get much further then going back and forth about the deaths.

[TotalRookie]

Wars are tools

[crimsonedge11]

Call me a conspiracy theory nut, but I think there is a whole lot more to the story about 9/11 and the Iraq war that we will never know about. The cards feel into place a little bit too well, like the whole thing was planned out. I am a US citizen and I don't trust my government as far as I can throw it, and I don't see any reason for anyone else to either. I saw some stuff on wikileaks that did nothing but fortify my distrust of my government. Lot more civilians were killed in both wars than they are telling, as well as deaths of US troops. And they also bombed and killed a few villages just to get to one or two people, but of course in the media they tell you it was an accident. Edited February 27, 2011 by crimsonedge11

[HappyHerring]

Call me a conspiracy theory nut, but I think there is a whole lot more to the story about 9/11 and the Iraq war that we will never know about. The cards feel into place a little bit too well, like the whole thing was planned out. I am a US citizen and I don't trust my government as far as I can throw it, and I don't see any reason for anyone else to either. I saw some stuff on wikileaks that did nothing but fortify my distrust of my government. Lot more civilians were killed in both wars than they are telling, as well as deaths of US troops. And they also bombed and killed a few villages just to get to one or two people, but of course in the media they tell you it was an accident.

I think you confuse a blend of incompetence, opportunism and hindsight for conspiracy.

 

As for a previous poster's comments about not identifying with or caring about the lives of others who happen to have slightly differing skin pigmentation, accent or language, I think that i'll have to tell my manager at the local Oxfam Bookshop that I won't be able volunteer anymore as it's been pointed out to me that I lack sympathy with the people who are the beneficiaries of our efforts. Of course I could refer the poster to previous posts on other both this and other threads which are explicit in showing that I have a basic knowledge of group dynamics in identification for self support and self image boosting purposes.

[IndorilTheGreat]

<SNIP>

 

Not to you specifically, but generally speaking people who refuse to admit that their governments have engaged in mass murder directly or indirectly (the American government for example; millions of Iraqis are dead).

 

<SNIP>

 

I am aware that this is digging up an old grave, but I found this statement rather... peculiar.

 

So, if I choose not to believe that my government are terrorists, that automatically makes me racist?

 

You do know where racism originates, right?: Stereotyping.

 

Just a thought that popped into my head as I was reading.

[ginnyfizz]

Call me a conspiracy theory nut, but I think there is a whole lot more to the story about 9/11 and the Iraq war that we will never know about. The cards feel into place a little bit too well, like the whole thing was planned out. I am a US citizen and I don't trust my government as far as I can throw it, and I don't see any reason for anyone else to either. I saw some stuff on wikileaks that did nothing but fortify my distrust of my government. Lot more civilians were killed in both wars than they are telling, as well as deaths of US troops. And they also bombed and killed a few villages just to get to one or two people, but of course in the media they tell you it was an accident.

I think you confuse a blend of incompetence, opportunism and hindsight for conspiracy.

 

As for a previous poster's comments about not identifying with or caring about the lives of others who happen to have slightly differing skin pigmentation, accent or language, I think that i'll have to tell my manager at the local Oxfam Bookshop that I won't be able volunteer anymore as it's been pointed out to me that I lack sympathy with the people who are the beneficiaries of our efforts. Of course I could refer the poster to previous posts on other both this and other threads which are explicit in showing that I have a basic knowledge of group dynamics in identification for self support and self image boosting purposes.

 

I know just what you mean, happy pig. I'll have to tell CAFOD and the children that I sponsor (and with whom I correspond) and the various projects eg Water Aid that I contribute to that I have had that pointed out to me too.

 

<SNIP>

 

Not to you specifically, but generally speaking people who refuse to admit that their governments have engaged in mass murder directly or indirectly (the American government for example; millions of Iraqis are dead).

 

<SNIP>

 

I am aware that this is digging up an old grave, but I found this statement rather... peculiar.

 

So, if I choose not to believe that my government are terrorists, that automatically makes me racist?

 

You do know where racism originates, right?: Stereotyping.

 

Just a thought that popped into my head as I was reading.

 

I could not agree more!

[SpellAndShield]

<SNIP>

 

Not to you specifically, but generally speaking people who refuse to admit that their governments have engaged in mass murder directly or indirectly (the American government for example; millions of Iraqis are dead).

 

<SNIP>

 

I am aware that this is digging up an old grave, but I found this statement rather... peculiar.

 

So, if I choose not to believe that my government are terrorists, that automatically makes me racist?

 

You do know where racism originates, right?: Stereotyping.

 

Just a thought that popped into my head as I was reading.

 

Not automatically by any means but it is a form a nationalism which is not different to racism, just another form of tribalism, us vs. them thinking. They are the other people. I will say it again, if the US and the UK had just allowed Iran to do what it had wanted in 1953 and left the rest of the region in peace, things would be a lot better today.