Who are the real terrorists?

[Fatalmasterpiece]

So in fact you are accusing people of what is certainly a criminal offence in my country? And baselessly too, because none of those of us who take the harder line on terrorism have ever once stated that British or American lives are any more valuable than others.

 

Of course you and other's who support the war do. Every time the USA drops a bomb or shells an area they are saying, western lives are more important than the brown man. Why?

 

What if this war was being waged on American soil? Do you think we would have aspirin factories (1998 under Clinton) getting blown up by missile strikes in downtown Chicago with little white boy Timmy getting killed as collateral damage?

 

What if that video I posted above (of Routers reporters being murdered by US soldiers in Baghdad), was an American reporter getting gunned down somewhere in Philly? What if it was Ted Koppel on that tape and he and his news crew were obliterated by a gunship like in that video and then the military covered it up? Do you think American's would care then? Of course they would. But since these things happen to some non-citizen with a brown face from some nation that ends in Stan and doesn't worship Jesus H Christ, Americans don't give a flying ....

[IndorilTheGreat]

So in fact you are accusing people of what is certainly a criminal offence in my country? And baselessly too, because none of those of us who take the harder line on terrorism have ever once stated that British or American lives are any more valuable than others.

 

Of course you and other's who support the war do. Every time the USA drops a bomb or shells an area they are saying, western lives are more important than the brown man. Why?

What if this war was being waged on American soil? Do you think we would have aspirin factories (1998 under Clinton) getting blown up by missile strikes in downtown Chicago with little white boy Timmy getting killed as collateral damage?

 

What if that video I posted above (of Routers reporters being murdered by US soldiers in Baghdad), was an American reporter getting gunned down somewhere in Philly? What if it was Ted Koppel on that tape and he and his news crew were obliterated by a gunship like in that video and then the military covered it up? Do you think American's would care then? Of course they would. But since these things happen to some non-citizen with a brown face from some nation that ends in Stan and doesn't worship Jesus H Christ, Americans don't give a flying ....

 

I know that this comment was not directed at me, but this ties in with what I noted before: racism starts out with stereotyping. The statement that you made above (which I made bold and underlined) is exactly that. It seems to be a hypocritical statement, if I may say so.

[ginnyfizz]

And, Fatalmasterpiece, if you can't think of any instances where white people have ended up as collateral damage, you need a history lesson.

[Fatalmasterpiece]

Of course I can think of plenty of times, Dresden for instance. That was also during a different era. A time when many Americans didn't even have a toilet in their house let alone a television. It is the citizens of a nation's responsibility to hold accountable their military for their actions. But now that people have unlimited knowledge at their hands, most prefer to watch Faux News and couldn't even find Iraq on a map. Americans can't be bothered to put down their cheeseburger for 5 minutes to care when civilians are being killed but when people like Julian Assange leak the information, people are calling for his blood.

 

I'm still waiting for you both to tell me I was wrong in #171, problem is, you really can't without outright lying to yourself.

[IndorilTheGreat]

Of course I can think of plenty of times, Dresden for instance. That was also during a different era. A time when many Americans didn't even have a toilet in their house let alone a television. It is the citizens of a nation's responsibility to hold accountable their military for their actions. But now that people have unlimited knowledge at their hands, most prefer to watch Faux News and couldn't even find Iraq on a map. Americans can't be bothered to put down their cheeseburger for 5 minutes to care when civilians are being killed but when people like Julian Assange leak the information, people are calling for his blood.

 

I'm still waiting for you both to tell me I was wrong in #171, problem is, you really can't without outright lying to yourself.

 

Yes, actually I can. In both of these posts, you have proven my point. In both of your posts, you have stereotyped many, many different people. The US is not solely made of of people with an ethnic background of Western Europe (aka. "White People). You also stereotyped American citizens by stating that we care more about little things (as I believe you said, "Americans can't be bothered to put down their cheeseburger for 5 minutes to care when civilians are being killed..."). The world is a brutal and bloody place. I am sure that more than people in America choose to turn away from the horrible things that occur in this world. :confused:

Edited February 27, 2011 by IndorilTheGreat

[evilneko]

If I may for a time, return to the core question of just whether or not our politicians (or indeed the government at large) are terrorists...

 

I think the core element, the one thing all terrorists have in common, is the use of fear as a means to a political end. I think pretty much everyone can agree that to be a terrorist, one must have a cause they are attempting to advance. Otherwise you're just a common criminal (eg, you kidnap and kill someone, you're just a plain jane murderer, you do it in a way that sends some sort of ideological message, you are a terrorist). It's the message, the goal that separates a terrorist from a common criminal.

 

Obviously the legal definition is much more strict than that, otherwise we really would be throwing politicians from both sides of the aisle in Gitmo, not to mention at least half the pundits on TV. Laws relating to terrorism can be found in USC Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 113B, for those curious enough to look. In law, it's quite clear that terrorism is tightly bound with violent action, much to the relief of political fearmongers, I'm sure. Doesn't make what they do any less despicable but strictly speaking, they aren't terrorists. More like con-men.

[SpellAndShield]

If I may for a time, return to the core question of just whether or not our politicians (or indeed the government at large) are terrorists...

 

I think the core element, the one thing all terrorists have in common, is the use of fear as a means to a political end. I think pretty much everyone can agree that to be a terrorist, one must have a cause they are attempting to advance. Otherwise you're just a common criminal (eg, you kidnap and kill someone, you're just a plain jane murderer, you do it in a way that sends some sort of ideological message, you are a terrorist). It's the message, the goal that separates a terrorist from a common criminal.

 

Obviously the legal definition is much more strict than that, otherwise we really would be throwing politicians from both sides of the aisle in Gitmo, not to mention at least half the pundits on TV. Laws relating to terrorism can be found in USC Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 113B, for those curious enough to look. In law, it's quite clear that terrorism is tightly bound with violent action, much to the relief of political fearmongers, I'm sure. Doesn't make what they do any less despicable but strictly speaking, they aren't terrorists. More like con-men.

 

Particularly during the Cold War the CIA was a terrorist organisation with its ideological goal of containing communism.

[Fatalmasterpiece]

Of course I can think of plenty of times, Dresden for instance. That was also during a different era. A time when many Americans didn't even have a toilet in their house let alone a television. It is the citizens of a nation's responsibility to hold accountable their military for their actions. But now that people have unlimited knowledge at their hands, most prefer to watch Faux News and couldn't even find Iraq on a map. Americans can't be bothered to put down their cheeseburger for 5 minutes to care when civilians are being killed but when people like Julian Assange leak the information, people are calling for his blood.

 

I'm still waiting for you both to tell me I was wrong in #171, problem is, you really can't without outright lying to yourself.

 

Yes, actually I can. In both of these posts, you have proven my point. In both of your posts, you have stereotyped many, many different people. The US is not solely made of of people with an ethnic background of Western Europe (aka. "White People). You also stereotyped American citizens by stating that we care more about little things (as I believe you said, "Americans can't be bothered to put down their cheeseburger for 5 minutes to care when civilians are being killed..."). The world is a brutal and bloody place. I am sure that more than people in America choose to turn away from the horrible things that occur in this world. :confused:

 

No you actually can't. All you managed to do was say I'm a hypocrite and stereotype people. I'm not denying that but this discussion isn't about me. Please try to refute my points, not dissect my language or critique me as a person. Where do you offer any counter point? You don't. Actually you only agree with what I said and acknowledge that Americans choose to "turn away". Hows your cheeseburger tasting? In immortal words of Hudson, Game over man.

[IndorilTheGreat]

Of course I can think of plenty of times, Dresden for instance. That was also during a different era. A time when many Americans didn't even have a toilet in their house let alone a television. It is the citizens of a nation's responsibility to hold accountable their military for their actions. But now that people have unlimited knowledge at their hands, most prefer to watch Faux News and couldn't even find Iraq on a map. Americans can't be bothered to put down their cheeseburger for 5 minutes to care when civilians are being killed but when people like Julian Assange leak the information, people are calling for his blood.

 

I'm still waiting for you both to tell me I was wrong in #171, problem is, you really can't without outright lying to yourself.

 

Yes, actually I can. In both of these posts, you have proven my point. In both of your posts, you have stereotyped many, many different people. The US is not solely made of of people with an ethnic background of Western Europe (aka. "White People). You also stereotyped American citizens by stating that we care more about little things (as I believe you said, "Americans can't be bothered to put down their cheeseburger for 5 minutes to care when civilians are being killed..."). The world is a brutal and bloody place. I am sure that more than people in America choose to turn away from the horrible things that occur in this world. :confused:

 

No you actually can't. All you managed to do was say I'm a hypocrite and stereotype people. I'm not denying that but this discussion isn't about me. Please try to refute my points, not dissect my language or critique me as a person. Where do you offer any counter point? You don't. Actually you only agree with what I said and acknowledge that Americans choose to "turn away". Hows your cheeseburger tasting? In immortal words of Hudson, Game over man.

 

What you did there was quite immature, in my own humble opinion. Now, I'm not trying to flame you or insult you, so please do not take it as such. You took a part of a sentence that I wrote, and only using that single part, you changed the entire meaning of it. I stated that more than people only in America choose to turn away from bad news. It's just human nature.

 

That being said, you are correct. I can't find a reason to want to watch the horrible things that happen in the world. I do however, pay attention to important matters. I wasn't trying to dissect your statement. I was merely pointing out that you were making a hypocritical statement.

 

But, I digress. This... conversation between the two of us has derailed the topic for long enough. Let's get back to the original topic at hand. I apologize to the OP of this thread.

 

And just in case you were wondering, my cheeseburger is rather tasty. Thanks for asking.

Edited February 28, 2011 by IndorilTheGreat

[marharth]

We could get much further with this if we talked about the wars in general...

 

I think it would be a good idea for everyone to debate about the wars before moving on to the terrorist stuff.