Do you think the CIA helps or harms the USA?

[WizardOfAtlantis]

Without the CIA the US would be blind or reliant on other nations agencies, anyway as others have said it's only the mistakes we get to hear about. Other nations services make mistakes too, our own MI6 were recently swindled out of £600,000 by a Pakistani shopkeeper for instance. :laugh:

 

Was overthrowing the elected Chilean government a mistake or a success?

If it worked, and that's what the CIA wanted to do, then it was a success...and therein lies the problem. I don't think the CIA can be judged on normal moral grounds because normal moral grounds aren't what make the world-as-it-is go 'round.

 

I think after WWII, the Powers-That-Be in the United States decided that if they were forced to take an open hand, then an open hand they would take. Now, 70 years later, they are still doing what they decided to do back then: Shape the World according to their own ideals.

 

It's what everybody does, in big or in small, and it's only logical and pragmatic than when Intelligence comes in saying this, that, or the other thing, Somebody's got to do something about it According to the Big Plan.

 

Who you gonna call? Not the Ghostbusters...http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/pirate.gif

[SpellAndShield]

Without the CIA the US would be blind or reliant on other nations agencies, anyway as others have said it's only the mistakes we get to hear about. Other nations services make mistakes too, our own MI6 were recently swindled out of £600,000 by a Pakistani shopkeeper for instance. :laugh:

 

Was overthrowing the elected Chilean government a mistake or a success?

If it worked, and that's what the CIA wanted to do, then it was a success...and therein lies the problem. I don't think the CIA can be judged on normal moral grounds because normal moral grounds aren't what make the world-as-it-is go 'round.

 

I think after WWII, the Powers-That-Be in the United States decided that if they were forced to take an open hand, then an open hand they would take. Now, 70 years later, they are still doing what they decided to do back then: Shape the World according to their own ideals.

 

It's what everybody does, in big or in small, and it's only logical and pragmatic than when Intelligence comes in saying this, that, or the other thing, Somebody's got to do something about it According to the Big Plan.

 

Who you gonna call? Not the Ghostbusters...http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/pirate.gif

 

Hundreds of thousands, if not millions have suffered for the CIA's 'successes'. Scary stuff.

[grannywils]

Silver, if I am understanding you correctly I think your point is well taken. There are many instances of which I have read (whether they are to be believed or not is another story), wherein many agencies, including the CIA have allegedly taken matters into their own hands. In some of these cases grave problems have ensued. If these stories are to be believed, then one might say that the CIA harms the USA.

 

However, one might also surmise that perhaps a bungled job might have been authorized but now denied as having been authorized. I would certainly have no way of knowing the real truth.

 

But in any event, as, I think it was JimUK, said, it is usually only the unsuccessful jobs that we hear about. I'm hoping that there are many others that are successful, and that they are for the betterment of all concerned. In that case, I suppose one could surmise that the CIA helps the USA

 

I acknowledge what Aurielius had to say and certainly respect it and those people who died serving their nation bravely. However, I also recognize the possibility of bad apples in this as in any organization, and as a patriotic American I must acknowledge that fact as well.

[SpellAndShield]

Silver, if I am understanding you correctly I think your point is well taken. There are many instances of which I have read (whether they are to be believed or not is another story), wherein many agencies, including the CIA have allegedly taken matters into their own hands. In some of these cases grave problems have ensued. If these stories are to be believed, then one might say that the CIA harms the USA.

 

However, one might also surmise that perhaps a bungled job might have been authorized but now denied as having been authorized. I would certainly have no way of knowing the real truth.

 

But in any event, as, I think it was JimUK, said, it is usually only the unsuccessful jobs that we hear about. I'm hoping that there are many others that are successful, and that they are for the betterment of all concerned. In that case, I suppose one could surmise that the CIA helps the USA

 

I acknowledge what Aurielius had to say and certainly respect it and those people who died serving their nation bravely. However, I also recognize the possibility of bad apples in this as in any organization, and as a patriotic American I must acknowledge that fact as well.

 

 

Hundreds of thousands, if not millions have suffered for the CIA's 'successes'. Is this a good thing or a bad thing in your opinion?

[WizardOfAtlantis]

Hundreds of thousands, if not millions have suffered for the CIA's 'successes'. Is this a good thing or a bad thing in your opinion?

That's a loaded question that can't be fairly answered. Or answered in short, if answered, because it's just not that simple and so can't be so simplified.

 

Everyone is of course going to think that suffering is bad. But then the question begs to be asked, isn't then more suffering worse?

 

If some suffering happened on the global war against communism (and by communism I mean the dictatorship in Soviet/China style), then it is surely less suffering that would be happening now if the world was run by even more "Communist" governments with the Soviets at the head.

 

Oh, and yes it is scary. But it's a lot less scary than a Soviet run world would be.

Edited January 27, 2011 by WizardOfAtlantis

[Nadimos]

LOL, do you think mind control experiments with children are okay? or drug smuggling in a big way from south america into the us? or assasinating democratic leaders to install dictators? or robbing folks of their natural ressources?

 

do you think that is a good reputation?

 

@.@

 

 

the nsa chief or something said not to long ago, the cia, they work for nobody

and looking at history, they just like to screw things up it seems.

kennedy also wanted to get rid of them i think and many others.

 

you know they like to play the media, yes?

 

<Snip> Off topic - None of this had anything to do with the CIA as it was all years before it was founded.

bben46

 

what do you think you have today?

 

better look twice.

 

 

go to history news network or something, research all that stuff and then look at what is today.

 

 

uh and kgb, since someone mentioned cold war. they are probably just like that only in their part of the world i guess. dunno.

[WizardOfAtlantis]

LOL, do you think mind control experiments with children are okay? or drug smuggling in a big way from south america into the us? or assasinating democratic leaders to install dictators? or robbing folks of their natural ressources?

 

do you think that is a good reputation?

 

@.@

 

 

the nsa chief or something said not to long ago, the cia, they work for nobody

and looking at history, they just like to screw things up it seems.

kennedy also wanted to get rid of them i think and many others.

 

you know they like to play the media, yes?

 

also you think poeple like the rockefellers or bushes who helped nazi germany in world war 2 are cool folks or what?

 

look it up. statoil hold back technologie on alternative ways on how to make oil from the usa during the war so nazi germany could exploit it.

 

ford was one of hitlers favorite guys and all the so called terrorist attacks from poland onto germans were staged+media propaganda paved the way for the invasion later on.

 

what do you think you have today?

 

better look twice.

 

 

go to history news network or something, research all that stuff and then look at what is today.

 

 

uh and kgb, since someone mentioned cold war. they are probably just like that only in their part of the world i guess. dunno.

If that's referred to me, I don't think you understood what my third sentence means (or the rest of my post for that matter). I already know all of what you said and it changes nothing. Qualitative is different than quantitative, and to understand one you cannot separate it in this case from the other.

 

If it's not referred to me, I invite you to think if you can separate and differentiate between a Totalitarian state that allows pluralism and a Totalitarian state that does not. http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/biggrin.gif

 

My argument lies beyond good and evil.

Edited January 27, 2011 by WizardOfAtlantis

[grannywils]

Silver, if I am understanding you correctly I think your point is well taken. There are many instances of which I have read (whether they are to be believed or not is another story), wherein many agencies, including the CIA have allegedly taken matters into their own hands. In some of these cases grave problems have ensued. If these stories are to be believed, then one might say that the CIA harms the USA.

 

However, one might also surmise that perhaps a bungled job might have been authorized but now denied as having been authorized. I would certainly have no way of knowing the real truth.

 

But in any event, as, I think it was JimUK, said, it is usually only the unsuccessful jobs that we hear about. I'm hoping that there are many others that are successful, and that they are for the betterment of all concerned. In that case, I suppose one could surmise that the CIA helps the USA

 

I acknowledge what Aurielius had to say and certainly respect it and those people who died serving their nation bravely. However, I also recognize the possibility of bad apples in this as in any organization, and as a patriotic American I must acknowledge that fact as well.

 

 

Hundreds of thousands, if not millions have suffered for the CIA's 'successes'. Is this a good thing or a bad thing in your opinion?

That question is not a serious one, and I am sure that you don't mean it to be. (If you do want my serious response, I think it is a bad thing). For the record, I do not happen to be a particularly big supporter of the CIA. However, I always attempt to be an honest and objective person who is willing to look at all sides of every issue. I happen to agree that is very likely that many hundreds of thousands, if not millions may have suffered for the CIA's successes; whether they were government ordered/sponsored missions or missions directed by "others". That, however was not the question posed by the OP. Therefore, I stand by my original response.

[Aurielius]

There seems to be a debate over the morality of the CIA, which is an amusing concept since it is not by it's very nature supposed to be an altruistic organization. It's purpose and primary function is to collect intelligence outside the national boundaries of the Untied States, being that the CIA is the child of the OSS whose mandate to act in the strategic interests of the United States by fair means or foul. The agency was never meant to be a place where Mother Theresa would be at home. Covert agencies are no more benevolent than military organizations but both are designed to implement national strategic and tactical goals.So the only criterion that they can be judged on , is whether it accomplished that aim. The world is just not a nice sandbox filled with polite children, it is an exceedingly dangerous place with some seriously dangerous nations and people out there.

[Harbringe]

Hundreds of thousands, if not millions have suffered for the CIA's 'successes'. Is this a good thing or a bad thing in your opinion?

That's a loaded question that can't be fairly answered. Or answered in short, if answered, because it's just not that simple and so can't be so simplified.

 

Everyone is of course going to think that suffering is bad. But then the question begs to be asked, isn't then more suffering worse?

 

If some suffering happened on the global war against communism (and by communism I mean the dictatorship in Soviet/China style), then it is surely less suffering that would be happening now if the world was run by even more "Communist" governments with the Soviets at the head.

 

Oh, and yes it is scary. But it's a lot less scary than a Soviet run world would be.

 

<Snip> off topic and attempting to redirect the topic

Bben46

 

Still if I were to make such a comparison I would have to say Capitalism has caused far more harm than Communism.

Edited January 31, 2011 by bben46