Transgenderism

[RebelOConner]

Wow. That's harsh.

 

What's someone from those groups ever done to you personally for you to say you'd never associate with them? If you don't think someone is a bad person, why say you'd never associate with them?

 

It's sad that the most normal thing to do is hate.

 

Has nothing to do with hate, its about who I choose to associate with personally. And I only associate with people of a certain character and moral values. Look at it this way, transgender is a choice, someone isn't born that way, and it is fair to hold someone accountable for the choices they make. But I still support their right to make that choice, but I reserve the right to judge them for making that choice. I think that people who make this choice shouldn't expect to be received by others as normal people, because they are not.

 

i don't think it's a choice, just a reality.

one of my friend is an intersex, born as a male, her body began to become feminine during her puberty, and now she lives as a woman, and thinks seriously to have surgery to remove her last masculine part.

Do you really think she had the choice to be like she is?

i don't.

and i don't think people realise how it's difficult to transgeders to live under judgment of the other.

[myrmaad]

It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues - Abraham Lincoln

[crimsonedge11]

Wow. That's harsh.

 

What's someone from those groups ever done to you personally for you to say you'd never associate with them? If you don't think someone is a bad person, why say you'd never associate with them?

 

It's sad that the most normal thing to do is hate.

 

Has nothing to do with hate, its about who I choose to associate with personally. And I only associate with people of a certain character and moral values. Look at it this way, transgender is a choice, someone isn't born that way, and it is fair to hold someone accountable for the choices they make. But I still support their right to make that choice, but I reserve the right to judge them for making that choice. I think that people who make this choice shouldn't expect to be received by others as normal people, because they are not.

 

i don't think it's a choice, just a reality.

one of my friend is an intersex, born as a male, her body began to become feminine during her puberty, and now she lives as a woman, and thinks seriously to have surgery to remove her last masculine part.

Do you really think she had the choice to be like she is?

i don't.

and i don't think people realise how it's difficult to transgeders to live under judgment of the other.

 

There is a choice, because people can't be like that without an artificial medical procedure. People that are transgender are obviously homosexual, and I do believe people are born that way, but to get an artificial medical procedure to alter your body into something else. That is different.

 

So you are saying life is difficult for them because they made a choice to get a sex change? Pardon me for not really caring that much, because it is a choice, and they have to learn to deal with the consequences of their choices like anyone else. I have made choices in my life plenty of times and had a negative result, and I had to learn to deal with it. That is the best solution I can give, is don't feel like you are entitled to being accepted by everyone because of a choice you made to alter your body. That just isn't the way the world works.

 

I am not a person who is prone to political correctness, so I will give an honest opinion of what I really think.

 

Anyway, I have put my opinion out there, and will just leave it at that, before this turns really ugly.

Edited March 6, 2011 by crimsonedge11

[DarkeWolf]

I've been staying away from this topic, but as a woman who struggled with infertility for years, only to have two miscarriages in a row, I'm deeply offended by this line of discourse, and frankly, well I just don't think much of it.

 

You can windbag a topic to death.

 

Myr- I wholeheartedly apologize, if my statement affected you on a personal level. I honestly, truly did not mean anything that I said as offensive or to hurt those that have fertility issues. My deepest regrets if I said anything that hurt you.

I do realize that some people don't have any choice in whether or not they can have kids. And that if they can overcome that physical obstacle, what a blessing it is to them to have those children.

I really do.

And I completely and totally apologize if my remarks seemed calloused to those who arent able.

[Pyrosocial]

Wow. That's harsh.

 

What's someone from those groups ever done to you personally for you to say you'd never associate with them? If you don't think someone is a bad person, why say you'd never associate with them?

 

It's sad that the most normal thing to do is hate.

 

Has nothing to do with hate, its about who I choose to associate with personally. And I only associate with people of a certain character and moral values. Look at it this way, transgender is a choice, someone isn't born that way, and it is fair to hold someone accountable for the choices they make. But I still support their right to make that choice, but I reserve the right to judge them for making that choice. I think that people who make this choice shouldn't expect to be received by others as normal people, because they are not.

 

i don't think it's a choice, just a reality.

one of my friend is an intersex, born as a male, her body began to become feminine during her puberty, and now she lives as a woman, and thinks seriously to have surgery to remove her last masculine part.

Do you really think she had the choice to be like she is?

i don't.

and i don't think people realise how it's difficult to transgeders to live under judgment of the other.

 

There is a choice, because people can't be like that without an artificial medical procedure. People that are transgender are obviously homosexual, and I do believe people are born that way, but to get an artificial medical procedure to alter your body into something else. That is different.

 

So you are saying life is difficult for them because they made a choice to get a sex change? Pardon me for not really caring that much, because it is a choice, and they have to learn to deal with the consequences of their choices like anyone else. I have made choices in my life plenty of times and had a negative result, and I had to learn to deal with it. That is the best solution I can give, is don't feel like you are entitled to being accepted by everyone because of a choice you made to alter your body. That just isn't the way the world works.

 

I am not a person who is prone to political correctness, so I will give an honest opinion of what I really think.

 

Anyway, I have put my opinion out there, and will just leave it at that, before this turns really ugly.

 

 

Actually, your wrong. This is possible, mind you its very rare. In fact there was recently a case here in the states where a young murdered girl had the same condition Rebel described, and I find it hard to believe that a 6 year old would undergo a surgry to have that happen to her.

[Kendo 2]

Going out on a limb here, but everyone should be held to the same standard regardless of who they are. No exceptions. Sexual orientation, and race for that matter, are not free passes. As far as the internet goes, character qualities or lack thereof are the real litmus test for being accepted. RL is very different but I personally could care less, unless it brings drama.

[crimsonedge11]

Wow. That's harsh.

 

What's someone from those groups ever done to you personally for you to say you'd never associate with them? If you don't think someone is a bad person, why say you'd never associate with them?

 

It's sad that the most normal thing to do is hate.

 

Has nothing to do with hate, its about who I choose to associate with personally. And I only associate with people of a certain character and moral values. Look at it this way, transgender is a choice, someone isn't born that way, and it is fair to hold someone accountable for the choices they make. But I still support their right to make that choice, but I reserve the right to judge them for making that choice. I think that people who make this choice shouldn't expect to be received by others as normal people, because they are not.

 

i don't think it's a choice, just a reality.

one of my friend is an intersex, born as a male, her body began to become feminine during her puberty, and now she lives as a woman, and thinks seriously to have surgery to remove her last masculine part.

Do you really think she had the choice to be like she is?

i don't.

and i don't think people realise how it's difficult to transgeders to live under judgment of the other.

 

There is a choice, because people can't be like that without an artificial medical procedure. People that are transgender are obviously homosexual, and I do believe people are born that way, but to get an artificial medical procedure to alter your body into something else. That is different.

 

So you are saying life is difficult for them because they made a choice to get a sex change? Pardon me for not really caring that much, because it is a choice, and they have to learn to deal with the consequences of their choices like anyone else. I have made choices in my life plenty of times and had a negative result, and I had to learn to deal with it. That is the best solution I can give, is don't feel like you are entitled to being accepted by everyone because of a choice you made to alter your body. That just isn't the way the world works.

 

I am not a person who is prone to political correctness, so I will give an honest opinion of what I really think.

 

Anyway, I have put my opinion out there, and will just leave it at that, before this turns really ugly.

 

 

Actually, your wrong. This is possible, mind you its very rare. In fact there was recently a case here in the states where a young murdered girl had the same condition Rebel described, and I find it hard to believe that a 6 year old would undergo a surgry to have that happen to her.

 

Using a very rare exception is and never has been a very good way to prove a point. Nice try though. This is obviously a different case if someone is born with a genetic defect, but doesn't reflect on the overall perspective of the transgender community, and why they get these procedures done.

 

The only reason I am here, is I saw a complete lack of an objective opinion on this matter. You can't have a debate without an objective opinion.

Edited March 7, 2011 by crimsonedge11

[Vagrant0]

The only reason I am here, is I saw a complete lack of an objective opinion on this matter. You can't have a debate without an objective opinion.

There's a difference between merely having an opinion, and having one which is supported by some understanding of the subject at hand. Although you may possess one, you clearly do not possess the other and seem more inclined to be touting hateful rhetoric than an informed opinion. Sexuality is NOT a choice... Sexual acts are, but one cannot suddenly just change their mind and become straight/gay; numerous studies have shown this as well as the overwhelming failure of certain institutions trying to force people into a "straight" sexuality. The term "choice" or "preference" is derogatory in that it assumes a conscious decision and therefore some aspect of morality may be applied to that decision. This is not to say that recent trends involving parents and young "inter-sexed" children aren't perhaps horribly misguided, but that your whole assumption is flawed and therefore your opinion is invalid and hardly objective.

[crimsonedge11]

The only reason I am here, is I saw a complete lack of an objective opinion on this matter. You can't have a debate without an objective opinion.

There's a difference between merely having an opinion, and having one which is supported by some understanding of the subject at hand. Although you may possess one, you clearly do not possess the other and seem more inclined to be touting hateful rhetoric than an informed opinion. Sexuality is NOT a choice... Sexual acts are, but one cannot suddenly just change their mind and become straight/gay; numerous studies have shown this as well as the overwhelming failure of certain institutions trying to force people into a "straight" sexuality. The term "choice" or "preference" is derogatory in that it assumes a conscious decision and therefore some aspect of morality may be applied to that decision. This is not to say that recent trends involving parents and young "inter-sexed" children aren't perhaps horribly misguided, but that your whole assumption is flawed and therefore your opinion is invalid and hardly objective.

 

My opinion is valid, because getting a medical operation to alter your body is a CHOICE, meaning you don't have to do it. And I already suggested that people that are homosexual, are likely born that way, but that in itself is much different than altering your body with a medical procedure into something that is not natural.

 

And exactly what way am I being hateful? I never said I hated anyone, I just drew a line in the sand as to what I though was acceptable lifestyles and behavior for people I personally associate with in real life. And I never said all transgender people are bad people. Its just that I associate with people who think and act like me in real life.

 

And Vagrant, you need to look at the bigger picture here. You know as well as I do that society as a whole, in most of the US at least is not ready to accept this kind of behavior as normal. Maybe in 20 or 30 years, but not now. And the harder people try to push it, the more defiant the reaction people will have to it. Maybe not open defiance, because people are too damn afraid to be labeled a bigot, but they will do it in the ballot box.

Edited March 7, 2011 by crimsonedge11

[Vagrant0]

My opinion is valid, because getting a medical operation to alter your body is a CHOICE, meaning you don't have to do it. And I already suggested that people that are homosexual, are likely born that way, but that in itself is much different than altering your body with a medical procedure into something that is not natural.

It is not valid because you make the assumption that human sexuality is limited to only 2 states; Heterosexual, and Homosexual. Even if you were to accept that sexuality and sex are two different things and that each sex has a different way of expressing that sexuality, that only accounts for 4 states of sexuality; Heterosexual Male, Homosexual Male, Heterosexual Female and Homosexual Female. The problem is that this closed view does not account for a person's gender identity. A gender identity, in overly simplified terms is that bit of being "a woman trapped in a man's body", in less simplified terms, it is the social identity which one assumes within society according to both natural genetic and psychological affinities as well as environmental factors. This means that even the definition of Homosexual verses Heterosexual is not always so clear since you may have a Male who identifies as a Woman, but who is attracted to Women, or a Female who identifies as a Man, but is attracted to Females. Just because one identifies a certain way, or has their sex changed does not mean that they are doing it just to be sexually compatible with the opposite sex. In fairness, this is something which most people cannot wrap their heads around, and which popular culture seems to only get wrong again and again, and again. There are atleast 2 more generally accepted levels of classification in addition to the 3 that were already mentioned, as well as internal varieties/groupings and an allotment for the wide multitude of "fetishes", but getting into that may go well beyond the point and would probably cause damage to most who might try following what is written. So it's best to keep things generic and just accept that there is more which is implied and hopefully understood by those in the know.

 

If someone were born with an extra arm jutting out of their back, they would get it removed as a matter of normal course, but as soon as it becomes something others may not easily understand, it becomes a choice? Sexual reassignment surgery is not a choice any more than wanting to have a grotesque extra appendage removed from your body is a choice. It is surgery that someone often feels that they have to do in order to feel like both who they are, and who they want to be in society.

 

And exactly what way am I being hateful? I never said I hated anyone, I just drew a line in the sand as to what I though was acceptable lifestyles and behavior for people I personally associate with in real life. And I never said all transgender people are bad people. Its just that I associate with people who think and act like me in real life.

You aren't being hateful, but your comments are. They clearly show the more typical, ill informed, highly judgmental view of someone who doesn't know the first thing about what they are talking about, but assumes that they not only have it all figured out, but that they're absolutely right.

 

People that are transgender are obviously homosexual, and I do believe people are born that way,

 

That is hateful rhetoric... That is also VERY incorrect. One does not equal the other.

 

And Vagrant, you need to look at the bigger picture here. You know as well as I do that society as a whole, in most of the US at least is not ready to accept this kind of behavior as normal. Maybe in 20 or 30 years, but not now. And the harder people try to push it, the more defiant the reaction people will have to it. Maybe not open defiance, because people are too damn afraid to be labeled a bigot, but they will do it in the ballot box.

I do see the bigger picture... Try looking outside the bible belt of the US sometime. Progress is being made, but most of it isn't obvious to those who aren't aware of the multitude of sociological, philosophical, and political shifts which are taking effect around the world. The "20 to 30" years attitude only serves to keep pushing back the social reforms which are necessary to meet the growing freedoms of individuals. It is easy to say "maybe in 20-30 years you people will be accepted" when you aren't part of that group or don't know anyone in it. For those in that group, tomorrow is too far away. This is the driving force behind the "out and proud" attitude of some, and frankly the rest of us have been lucky that they aren't militant yet, but you are right with one thing; pushing the issue to the side doesn't solve anything either. The solution is in open, intelligent, and thoughtful discussion of the issue and in not letting people get swept into the politics, beliefs, and biases that surround it. Until you can do that, any opinion you may express will be a subjective one.

 

As for total acceptance, yeah... that won't happen, ever. Despite the fact that most religions agree on the same basic premises, and despite the fact that within those religions there are many agreements on more broader beliefs, people still use the differences are reason enough for separation and conflict... And we've been dealing with that, in one form or another, one for the better part of human history. But, in the same sense, a closed minded view of others beliefs only serves to make things worse for everyone. Thankfully a fair amount of the research being done these days is without bias, and data is being leaked slowly enough to the public that there isn't much chance of a backlash by those who simply don't want to understand.