Transgenderism

[phoneyLogic]

Of cause you are right BlackBaron2. I didn't even thought about that.

They are as real as every other person, no doubt.

I just meant that I do not think that genders are roles which are defined somehow fixed. There are lot of differences in sexuality vor everyone. Look at a famous german "familly newspaper" like "Bild" which has one of the highest readership and you'll find lots of bare female skin =P and "sex tips" all day long and of cause: they usually are just plain stereotypes. Some people just seem to need that to ensure themselves that they are a "real" man or woman or whatever. But in fact, everyone of us is somewhere on the scale like myrmaad said.

 

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[SilverDNA]

Of cause you are right BlackBaron2. I didn't even thought about that.

They are as real as every other person, no doubt.

I just meant that I do not think that genders are roles which are defined somehow fixed. There are lot of differences in sexuality vor everyone. Look at a famous german "familly newspaper" like "Bild" which has one of the highest readership and you'll find lots of bare female skin =P and "sex tips" all day long and of cause: they usually are just plain stereotypes. Some people just seem to need that to ensure themselves that they are a "real" man or woman or whatever. But in fact, everyone of us is somewhere on the scale like myrmaad said.

 

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If you read the Bild then you get only news in a little box from page one the rest is so gender biased that it could start a flame ware here if you bring the articles up. try something other may be Handelsblatt or FAZ and if oyu want to be up to date i recomend "die Welt online, der spiegel online ect. but the bild is only worth a journalistic laugh ... but even a bit better than the "emma" on transgenderism it is better to read some literature or talk to people hat strugle hard in there life to see what they face. ( either disabled homosexuals or more seldom if you got the chance transgendered people) please but not the BIld

[phoneyLogic]

I don't really read it. I only sometimes look at bild.de the headlines because of Mr. Abstrus (Dr. Googleberg) who just seems to win the hearts and minds of the common people. Reading there can be quite desturbing, yes. Edited February 24, 2011 by tortured Tomato

[Vagrant0]

I don't really read it. I only sometimes look at bild.de the headlines because of Mr. Abstrus (Dr. Googleberg) who just seems to win the hearts and minds of the common people. Reading there can be quite desturbing, yes.

And, just because one person has done the research and understands a fair deal about the situation, both on the personal and clinical standpoint does not necessarily mean they are personally open to the idea. Despite what I know, it finding out that someone I was with was born a male but had some doctor sculpt his parts to look female would just throw me off and weird me out, even if they were up front about it. I would honestly have a very tough time accepting it, as would most people. This isn't because of some sort of ignorance or social bias, it's because of the ambiguity in terms and all the baggage that goes along with having some past life and trying to move beyond it. I might still care a great deal about that person, but I wouldn't be able to be with them. No, this doesn't speak very well towards the idea of acceptance, but when you identify as a straight male, and have come to realize over the years that only a natural female body, and real feminine mannerisms can interest you in the right way, nothing can change that any more than you can change someone from being homosexual or believing they were born in the wrong body.

[BlackBaron2]

That stigma of "you'll never be a real woman"/"you'll never be a real man" is certainly not helping the issue of trans suicides. Yeah, trans people can't have babies, so what? Would you say to a person who was born sterile or became sterile due to illness or accident, that they're not "real"? Would you call a woman who was born with female parts and XY chromosomes "not real"?

 

I mean absolutely no harm to anyone with my statements, and I consider my questions to be valid, because the stigma does exist, judging by the views I've encountered both online and off. I legitimately do want to know what makes somebody an Unperson (to borrow a term from Margaret Atwood).

[phoneyLogic]

On the one hand we all have the problem that we can't just switch our beings to sth different. There's a point where we have to accept ourselfs and where we have to deal with it.

 

On the other hand I know that in America it has become common e.g. to "pimp their faces" and to fix or modify other things and "issues". At least at the moment it seems to be widely accepted that women alter their physics to make them "more female" with larger breasts and so on.

This is just fact.

 

 

A few years now we use the abilities of plastic surgery heavily - even without any need.

Edited February 24, 2011 by tortured Tomato

[BlackBaron2]

I don't know what you're saying.

 

Are you saying a transwoman is "not a real woman"? If you are, and you answered no to my other questions, well, that doesn't make sense at all. People are more complicated than the bits they were born with. ;)

[phoneyLogic]

No, I just talked about plastic surgery in general.

 

But to your questions:

I'd say that this highly depends on how one would define a women or a man.

Edited February 25, 2011 by tortured Tomato

[Vagrant0]

People are more complicated than the bits they were born with. ;)

While this is true, there is a certain element to a person's personality and general disposition which is gained from being raised as a particular gender that cannot be replicated or taught no matter how much counseling, hypnosis, or whatever else someone may try to go though. There are also certain personality quirks and aspects which are brought on by transitioning between the sexes that natural women/men wouldn't have. Among these is often the need to over-correct certain behaviors or mannerisms to try and enforce the sex that the person is trying to portray. If people are more complicated than the bits they were born with, they are also certainly more complicated than what bits they have now. Even in those rare cases where you a child which is raised to be a different gender than they normally would be only ends up with one screwed up child who either has an identity crisis as soon as the enforcing elements are no longer around, or who leads a farce of a life under the direction of another. There just isn't a substitute for a genuine childhood, no matter how screwed up it might have been.

 

Why is this important? Because once you get beyond the mechanics of sex, what really matters is the person. For many transsexuals and inter-sexed persons, the way they are is often part of an act to try and show people how "real" they are, and it becomes hard to isolate the person from the persona. Even after the initial, and all too typical, "OMFG, you were once a guy? <retch> I just... with a guy... <choke> I'm not gay, get the f* out..." crap, there is still that aspect of the person behind the body which most are not as willing to try and unravel or deal with if it involves secrets or having to now re-define the situation. It is a bit near sighted to think that just because someone changes your bits around it means that suddenly everything will be peachy-keen and all members of the opposite sex will now want everything to do with you... Or didn't you pick up on that part of what was being presented in that particular South Park episode?

[BlackBaron2]

My own definition goes by what's on the inside--not chromosomes (because those aren't infallible), not ability to produce babies (infertile people exist), not outward appearance, and certainly not your past. :)

 

EDIT:

 

I don't watch TV. So, no, I did not understand the point they were trying to make. Still, I think the irrational fear of being perceived as gay is silly. If you can let go of someone's past and treat them as the person they are now, that's good. If not, it's your loss entirely.