What would be the best way to punish criminals?

[Fatalmasterpiece]

I definitely agree about the laws. For example, we spend billions a year on Marijuana, but who has ever over dosed on the drug? Who has ever died from using it who couldn't have been killed similarly by alcohol and tobacco? The prisons are overcrowded, by releasing these criminals alone you would solve this problem.

 

But sending them to a separate society isn't a solution. When one has a problem, putting it somewhere else only makes you forget about it, until the problem grows so large that you can no longer ignore it.

[Aurielius]

I definitely agree about the laws. For example, we spend billions a year on Marijuana, but who has ever over dosed on the drug? Who has ever died from using it who couldn't have been killed similarly by alcohol and tobacco? The prisons are overcrowded, by releasing these criminals alone you would solve this problem.

 

But sending them to a separate society isn't a solution. When one has a problem, putting it somewhere else only makes you forget about it, until the problem grows so large that you can no longer ignore it.

 

 

I agree that there is little evidence of fatalities by users but are you not forgetting about the deaths resultant from the Drug Cartel wars in Mexico ?

 

(2009 - drug violence in Mexico) "The cross-border flow of money and guns into Mexico from the United States has enabled well-armed and well-funded cartels to engage in violent activities. They employ advanced military tactics and utilize sophisticated weaponry such as sniper rifles, grenades, rocket-propelled grenades and even mortars in attacks on security personnel. DTOs have openly challenged the GOM through conflict and intimidation and have fought amongst themselves to control drug distribution routes. The results led to unprecedented violence and a general sense of insecurity in certain areas of the country, particularly near the U.S. border. Between January and September 2009, there were 5,874 drug-related murders in Mexico, an almost 5 percent increase over 2008 (5,600)."

 

source:

United States Department of State, Bureau for International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs, "International Narcotics Control Strategy Report: Volume I, Drug and Chemical Control," (Washington, DC: U.S. Department of State: March 2010)p. 432.

[marharth]

I definitely agree about the laws. For example, we spend billions a year on Marijuana, but who has ever over dosed on the drug? Who has ever died from using it who couldn't have been killed similarly by alcohol and tobacco? The prisons are overcrowded, by releasing these criminals alone you would solve this problem.

 

But sending them to a separate society isn't a solution. When one has a problem, putting it somewhere else only makes you forget about it, until the problem grows so large that you can no longer ignore it.

My prison system is somewhere in another topic...

 

Basically it would be more then a separate society, it would be more of a rehab program that would pay for itself.

 

@Aurieliu, not sure what your trying to say.

 

You are obviously correct about the drug wars, but what is your point?

[JimboUK]

I definitely agree about the laws. For example, we spend billions a year on Marijuana, but who has ever over dosed on the drug? Who has ever died from using it who couldn't have been killed similarly by alcohol and tobacco? The prisons are overcrowded, by releasing these criminals alone you would solve this problem.

 

But sending them to a separate society isn't a solution. When one has a problem, putting it somewhere else only makes you forget about it, until the problem grows so large that you can no longer ignore it.

 

 

I agree that there is little evidence of fatalities by users but are you not forgetting about the deaths resultant from the Drug Cartel wars in Mexico ?

 

(2009 - drug violence in Mexico) "The cross-border flow of money and guns into Mexico from the United States has enabled well-armed and well-funded cartels to engage in violent activities. They employ advanced military tactics and utilize sophisticated weaponry such as sniper rifles, grenades, rocket-propelled grenades and even mortars in attacks on security personnel. DTOs have openly challenged the GOM through conflict and intimidation and have fought amongst themselves to control drug distribution routes. The results led to unprecedented violence and a general sense of insecurity in certain areas of the country, particularly near the U.S. border. Between January and September 2009, there were 5,874 drug-related murders in Mexico, an almost 5 percent increase over 2008 (5,600)."

 

source:

United States Department of State, Bureau for International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs, "International Narcotics Control Strategy Report: Volume I, Drug and Chemical Control," (Washington, DC: U.S. Department of State: March 2010)p. 432.

 

Aren't these deaths a result of prohibition? legalisation would remove the gangs.

[Fatalmasterpiece]

I definitely agree about the laws. For example, we spend billions a year on Marijuana, but who has ever over dosed on the drug? Who has ever died from using it who couldn't have been killed similarly by alcohol and tobacco? The prisons are overcrowded, by releasing these criminals alone you would solve this problem.

 

But sending them to a separate society isn't a solution. When one has a problem, putting it somewhere else only makes you forget about it, until the problem grows so large that you can no longer ignore it.

 

 

I agree that there is little evidence of fatalities by users but are you not forgetting about the deaths resultant from the Drug Cartel wars in Mexico ?

 

(2009 - drug violence in Mexico) "The cross-border flow of money and guns into Mexico from the United States has enabled well-armed and well-funded cartels to engage in violent activities. They employ advanced military tactics and utilize sophisticated weaponry such as sniper rifles, grenades, rocket-propelled grenades and even mortars in attacks on security personnel. DTOs have openly challenged the GOM through conflict and intimidation and have fought amongst themselves to control drug distribution routes. The results led to unprecedented violence and a general sense of insecurity in certain areas of the country, particularly near the U.S. border. Between January and September 2009, there were 5,874 drug-related murders in Mexico, an almost 5 percent increase over 2008 (5,600)."

 

source:

United States Department of State, Bureau for International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs, "International Narcotics Control Strategy Report: Volume I, Drug and Chemical Control," (Washington, DC: U.S. Department of State: March 2010)p. 432.

 

These deaths are a direct symptom of the ban. Infact one could reason these deaths are caused by the law, not the drug.

 

To get back on topic a little more, the war on drugs has done little to nothing to slow the use and trade of drugs. Proving the current form of punishment only causes greater problems.

[Aurielius]

These deaths are a direct symptom of the ban. Infact one could reason these deaths are caused by the law, not the drug.

To get back on topic a little more, the war on drugs has done little to nothing to slow the use and trade of drugs. Proving the current form of punishment only causes greater problems.

Since the only legalization proposition in any of the 50 States (in California) was soundly defeated last November I do not think that there were be a reversal of Federal Law any time soon. Prohibition did not work in the 1920's and is not working now but that fact does not seem to deter the mind set in relation to drugs the least bit. And the fatalities will continue to escalate in Mexico, until at some point it will cease to be a country governed by laws and reminiscent of Columbia in the 80's.

[Dicecaster]

Outlawry.

 

That's the way it worked at one point, and it's as good as it's gonna get. Here's how it works: each law has a penalty for breaking it; a fine (ridiculously high; Bill Gates would suffer), a jail sentence (and jails were very miserable), or a choice of both (I'm not certain on the punishments, but the point is that they were heavy). You would either accept the punishment, or refuse it. If you refused it, the judge would say "Alright, you choose not to obey the law, and therefore are exempt of its protection". His description is posted somewhere in the city, and now it's perfectly legal to: kill him, capture him as a slave, toss him in an arena and watch him fight to the death with a pack of lions for your own amusement, rape him, whatever. It's just, it's scary as hell, and it solves the tax problem.

 

@marharth

I can see why you would think of the "rehab society" idea, but there's one giant flaw: there's no reason to restrain yourself from breaking the law. Worst-case scenario, you have to spend years in some happy-land where they try to "make you better". Now, I could be wrong, but I don't think that's going to scare many people away from crime.

[RZ1029]

Well my good sirs and madams....

 

I have a very simple solution for you. It involves a .45 bullet and the back of someone's head.

 

Now, I don't mean everyone. Tax evasion shouldn't mean death. Same with petty theft and whatnot. Murder, aggravated assault, sexual assault, rape, attempted murder, and repeat offenders, even of petty theft are the things I'm going after in that sweeping statement. Manslaughter is kind of a gray area, I'm not really sure that that's something to be so harsh on, unless it was blatant negligence. (READ: Drunk driving, failure to properly maintain equipment, et cetera. Things that could be avoided if they had just followed the rules, so to speak.) Note, I do not include the 14 year old and the 18 year old dating in the 'sexual assault/rape' categories. Appropriate? Maybe not. Illegal? Eh... I don't think that's for the law to say, that's a parent-child issue there.

 

I'm not a fan of second chances, but I'm also not a bloodthirsty and unforgiving individual. I believe prisons work in some cases, which is why I don't do the across-the-board execution of criminals. Also, I do NOT count something like marijuana possession or use into this. Do I think it's a good idea? Eh... not really, but I don't see it posing the danger that something like illegal methamphetamine does. (Yes, I realize there are legal uses for it as medicine.) Honestly, legalize it and you've freed up a lot of room in our prisons. And I don't even think that meth/cocaine/LSD users should go to prison, but should instead be sent into rehab programs. Prison doesn't have the facilities they need to break what is likely a very powerful addiction. No optional early check-out, etc. Now, this would also require some government funding, but rehabilitation means functional individuals able to pay their costs and carry their weight, versus sitting in jail and leeching government funds.

 

This also would help with some drug dealers/cartel issues, etc. in the US specifically. Marijuana is one of the largest cash crops (once reportedly the largest) because of the massive return on investment. Legalize it, add them to the list of FDA-approved whatever they do and regulate it just like food and medicine. And as a part of that, continue operation against the use of the other illicit drugs, which you can now increase effort in. Hopefully, as a part of that rehabilitation that other users would go through, they could break their addiction and when there's no business in the game anymore, the cartel's pack up and go home. At least, from the US.

 

Now I realize the practicality of a lot of this is slim to none, especially as most people aren't a fan of holding mass-executions, even of darkest of individuals in the prison system. However, I do think this would resolve a lot of our problems with society. Draw a hard line and hold to it. And draw that line across the board, none of these stupid celebrities in jail for a night for what would put someone away for a year. Drug use/possession? Jail them, same as anyone else. None of this stupid house arrest and whatnot.

Edited February 15, 2011 by RZ1029

[JimboUK]

Well my good sirs and madams....

 

I have a very simple solution for you. It involves a .45 bullet and the back of someone's head.

 

Now, I don't mean everyone. Tax evasion shouldn't mean death. Same with petty theft and whatnot. Murder, aggravated assault, sexual assault, rape, attempted murder, and repeat offenders, even of petty theft are the things I'm going after in that sweeping statement. Manslaughter is kind of a gray area, I'm not really sure that that's something to be so harsh on, unless it was blatant negligence. (READ: Drunk driving, failure to properly maintain equipment, et cetera. Things that could be avoided if they had just followed the rules, so to speak.) Note, I do not include the 14 year old and the 18 year old dating in the 'sexual assault/rape' categories. Appropriate? Maybe not. Illegal? Eh... I don't think that's for the law to say, that's a parent-child issue there.

 

I'm not a fan of second chances, but I'm also not a bloodthirsty and unforgiving individual. I believe prisons work in some cases, which is why I don't do the across-the-board execution of criminals. Also, I do NOT count something like marijuana possession or use into this. Do I think it's a good idea? Eh... not really, but I don't see it posing the danger that something like illegal methamphetamine does. (Yes, I realize there are legal uses for it as medicine.) Honestly, legalize it and you've freed up a lot of room in our prisons. And I don't even think that meth/cocaine/LSD users should go to prison, but should instead be sent into rehab programs. Prison doesn't have the facilities they need to break what is likely a very powerful addiction. No optional early check-out, etc. Now, this would also require some government funding, but rehabilitation means functional individuals able to pay their costs and carry their weight, versus sitting in jail and leeching government funds.

 

This also would help with some drug dealers/cartel issues, etc. in the US specifically. Marijuana is one of the largest cash crops (once reportedly the largest) because of the massive return on investment. Legalize it, add them to the list of FDA-approved whatever they do and regulate it just like food and medicine. And as a part of that, continue operation against the use of the other illicit drugs, which you can now increase effort in. Hopefully, as a part of that rehabilitation that other users would go through, they could break their addiction and when there's no business in the game anymore, the cartel's pack up and go home. At least, from the US.

 

Now I realize the practicality of a lot of this is slim to none, especially as most people aren't a fan of holding mass-executions, even of darkest of individuals in the prison system. However, I do think this would resolve a lot of our problems with society. Draw a hard line and hold to it. And draw that line across the board, none of these stupid celebrities in jail for a night for what would put someone away for a year. Drug use/possession? Jail them, same as anyone else. None of this stupid house arrest and whatnot.

 

What do you do when it turns out the person you shot was innocent? it's not uncommon for innocent people to be jailed only to be released years later. Digging them up and saying sorry won't help them much. On the subject of rape, having the same punishment for that as murder is a very bad idea, why encourage a rapist to also murder his victim? after all there is no incentive to leave the only witness alive if the punishment is the same as killing them.

[Dicecaster]

Well my good sirs and madams....

 

I have a very simple solution for you. It involves a .45 bullet and the back of someone's head.

 

Now, I don't mean everyone. Tax evasion shouldn't mean death. Same with petty theft and whatnot. Murder, aggravated assault, sexual assault, rape, attempted murder, and repeat offenders, even of petty theft are the things I'm going after in that sweeping statement. Manslaughter is kind of a gray area, I'm not really sure that that's something to be so harsh on, unless it was blatant negligence. (READ: Drunk driving, failure to properly maintain equipment, et cetera. Things that could be avoided if they had just followed the rules, so to speak.) Note, I do not include the 14 year old and the 18 year old dating in the 'sexual assault/rape' categories. Appropriate? Maybe not. Illegal? Eh... I don't think that's for the law to say, that's a parent-child issue there.

 

I'm not a fan of second chances, but I'm also not a bloodthirsty and unforgiving individual. I believe prisons work in some cases, which is why I don't do the across-the-board execution of criminals. Also, I do NOT count something like marijuana possession or use into this. Do I think it's a good idea? Eh... not really, but I don't see it posing the danger that something like illegal methamphetamine does. (Yes, I realize there are legal uses for it as medicine.) Honestly, legalize it and you've freed up a lot of room in our prisons. And I don't even think that meth/cocaine/LSD users should go to prison, but should instead be sent into rehab programs. Prison doesn't have the facilities they need to break what is likely a very powerful addiction. No optional early check-out, etc. Now, this would also require some government funding, but rehabilitation means functional individuals able to pay their costs and carry their weight, versus sitting in jail and leeching government funds.

 

This also would help with some drug dealers/cartel issues, etc. in the US specifically. Marijuana is one of the largest cash crops (once reportedly the largest) because of the massive return on investment. Legalize it, add them to the list of FDA-approved whatever they do and regulate it just like food and medicine. And as a part of that, continue operation against the use of the other illicit drugs, which you can now increase effort in. Hopefully, as a part of that rehabilitation that other users would go through, they could break their addiction and when there's no business in the game anymore, the cartel's pack up and go home. At least, from the US.

 

Now I realize the practicality of a lot of this is slim to none, especially as most people aren't a fan of holding mass-executions, even of darkest of individuals in the prison system. However, I do think this would resolve a lot of our problems with society. Draw a hard line and hold to it. And draw that line across the board, none of these stupid celebrities in jail for a night for what would put someone away for a year. Drug use/possession? Jail them, same as anyone else. None of this stupid house arrest and whatnot.

 

What do you do when it turns out the person you shot was innocent? it's not uncommon for innocent people to be jailed only to be released years later. Digging them up and saying sorry won't help them much. On the subject of rape, having the same punishment for that as murder is a very bad idea, why encourage a rapist to also murder his victim? after all there is no incentive to leave the only witness alive if the punishment is the same as killing them.

I agree about the first part; people can be reimbursed (not the word I'm looking for, but you get the point) if they were found innocent after all. However, if a guy is willing to go to such heights as rape (and considering the very heavy consequences associated with such a crime), he will very likely murder his victim just as readily no matter what the punishment was.