What would be the best way to punish criminals?

[Nadimos]

Yeah, Franklin is cool. Back then they did issue their own money. Today we have private organisations doing it for us. I think any of these things should have more involvment of the poeple. Also prisons. Edited February 20, 2011 by Nadimos

[DariusMoranda]

Darius, I do not need a history lesson about those times in Russia, for I have enough relatives who either suffered under those "people" you mention, or shipped out in time to escape them, to be well aware of who Dherzhinsky, Yagoda, Yezhov and Beria were. I also have some very hefty history tomes in my bookcase which I read regularly. It is yourself who brought in the example of Iron Felix the butcher as a paragon of effective policing and how to deal with criminals. God help us. And you then proceeded, when someone disagreed, to drag in Churchill and the British Empire, thus it is you who brought in the morality of historical figures.

 

Thus, I am certainly in a position to state that the Dherzhinsky way would be a total disaster for the world as we know it. Remember, he had people butchered for who they were as much as what they had (or in many cases had not) done. No presumption of innocence for old Felix, just off to the cellar and a bullet in the back of the neck. Do we really want that kind of regime? Do we wish to exchange fear of crime for fear of the state and tyranny? Good Lord, even we notoriously laid back Brits had a Civil War and deposed a King because he was getting too big for his boots and operating outside the rule of law and the wishes of Parliament, and trying to impose his own form of justice. Shortened him by a head too, and a generation later chased off his son because he was heading the same way. THAT is what you get eventually when you try the iron fist approach. Violence begetting violence.

 

Yes, but again, my words are taken out of it's original context, Felix Dzerzhinsky died 85 years ago, his methods are old and used, we live in modern time. And first of all, I didn't say that things should be quick and

 

No, I prefer to stick with Maimonides, Blackstone and Benjamin Franklin. Not to mention Winston...

 

*Whispers at Nadimos...pssst no religious debate...*

 

Yes, but again, my words are taken out of it's original context, Felix Dzerzhinsky died 85 years ago, his methods are old and used, we live in modern time. And first of all, I didn't say that things should be that quick and without a chance for someone to defend himself/herself. The point is that a PERSON who runs the show should be made of steel and rock.

You see, you expressed your opinion before I did on this matter, and I had nothing bad to say about it, neither I questioned your opinion. Why would I have my opinion questioned? Why to judge immediately on someone's choice?You have your choice and reasons for that, same as me. And I repeated with saying that a man should punish only hard criminals , not innocent civilians and others to be sent to the cellar. I would be an animal if I think like that, and I surely know that I am not one.It doesn't mean that a person is wrong or a bad one if he/she has different thoughts.

 

The thread went in another way because of Iron Felix, a simple disagreement was enough, without accusing someone for being a murderer , who was, by the way, used only as an example, a pure mannequin for the real meaning of my opinion.

 

I do not enjoy in people being dead, neither if it is a hard criminal, but though, I have no pity for that one, neither.

 

I stick to hard methods and sharp law, for those civilians to be with no worries on their mind that a serial killer would be in in a hospital with park and flowers, talking with a pacifist psychologist about his drunk father and obsessive mother and how he peed in bed. That's laughable and not effective. It is like a reality program with a bad taste. Anyone who is watching it would laugh and ask him/herself-' Look at what are government is doing... We pay them taxes and work for the state prosper and they spent it on this maniacs who killed kids and helpless people. Hey, have you looked at those fences, he might escape from there?Booo to the officials!'

 

I simply disagree with that stuff, and now I do it on the open, which I had no intentions for, but I feel like being put in front of the commision for being different.

 

Darius

[ginnyfizz]

The problem is that in the sort of iron fist regime you advocate, the definition of "hard criminal" is apt to get cast very wide indeed. In other words to mean anyone who might have an independent thought in their head and is not from your actual client constituency. For example, those who had the misfortune to be bourgeois, non-Bolshevik aligned intelligentsia, priests, in Revolutionary Russia. My friend Aurelius has said elsewhere that those who do not heed the lessons of history are doomed to repeat the mistakes. We also tried the iron fist approach in England during the time of the Bloody Code of the late 18th / early 19th century. Due to the fact that keeping the convicts in harsh, cramped and insanitary conditions caused disease to spread into the general population, whilst they waited either their turn to dance the gallows jig or for transportation, there was precious little, if any, benefit to the rest of the people and they certainly didn't feel safer.

[DariusMoranda]

The problem is that in the sort of iron fist regime you advocate, the definition of "hard criminal" is apt to get cast very wide indeed. In other words to mean anyone who might have an independent thought in their head and is not from your actual client constituency. For example, those who had the misfortune to be bourgeois, non-Bolshevik aligned intelligentsia, priests, in Revolutionary Russia. My friend Aurelius has said elsewhere that those who do not heed the lessons of history are doomed to repeat the mistakes. We also tried the iron fist approach in England during the time of the Bloody Code of the late 18th / early 19th century. Due to the fact that keeping the convicts in harsh, cramped and insanitary conditions caused disease to spread into the general population, whilst they waited either their turn to dance the gallows jig or for transportation, there was precious little, if any, benefit to the rest of the people and they certainly didn't feel safer.

 

In my earlier posts, I strictly defined hard criminals as those who mean harm to children, women old people and the state, and when I say state, I mean as terrorism, something vicious, not political opposition and different ideas, of course, I meant for spies, traitors and terrorists who's work has lethal result to their fellow citizens. And organized crime, drug cartels and such, organizations who phish young people into drugs , destroying lives of their families. To make it shorter- all the people who sell death to innocent for no reason at all, other then their own interest and pleasure.

 

That is what I meant for 'hard criminals'. I advocate iron rules when it comes to law and justice and law and justice ONLY, but that doesn't mean that killing a priest or sending an opposite political leader to prison is a an iron and proper thing to do, I never included such a thing in my statement.

 

And when I say law and justice , I mean only that, not entire state to be created of such construction, not a police or a military state.

 

I think I speak and write plain and simple , for everyone to understand, but it seems that the more and more I write, the more and more I am being misread.

 

Let's make an example trial in a short verse-

 

I am a judge. And I m a judge at the trial of a mass murderer. That man is arrested and being prosecuted for storming into a kindergarten with M 84, launching an assault with a lethal result which counts 32 dead and 6 wounded. Those surveillance cameras taped it and the man who did it showed off his face entirely , while he was shooting at people. There 12 witnesses who are saying that that man is the man who's sitting in a courtroom. The prosecuted has a history of violence behavior, a couple of rapes, some prison time served, psychiatric diagnose, overall a dangerous individual towards surroundings. There are other numerous evidences like blood on his shirt , which belongs to his victims, the weapons 's been found in his home, fingerprints are his on the weapon, experts found a paraffin glove on his hands, etc, etc...,

 

The jury decides that he is guilty , a decision has been brought based on numerous evidences presented in the courtroom, numerous testifying of the witnesses, etc, etc..,

 

Let's hear what he has to say, as a reaction on the decision- 'If I had a chance and more ammo, I would kill more!!!'

 

Now it's the time to sentence the man for his earned punishment.

 

You know what I would do? I would order an execution within 60 minutes, without any chance for last words, last meal, last cigar. And no chairs, no gas, no injections, neither one of those slow, torture style animal methods, that is the same thing he did to his victims, he brought fear to his victims, many died instantly but not all, some died from wounds, scared, crying for help. Let's not be the same like him.

 

And THEN comes Iron Felix method. Off to the cellar with him, his name , his full name, day, month and year of his birth and name of his parents, face the wall and a high caliber handgun fired at the back of the head. Quick, painless, without a crowd and reporters, because it is not a zoo or an experiment on a guinea pig, case closed.

 

That is what I meant as a hard criminal and a hard punishment for the same one.

 

As for petty things, a guy steals a purse, and gets 6 months. No way. 3 years it would be, so that the next 3 potential purse chasers will put their trigger fingers on the forehead and say 'Oh man, Imma go to teh factory to work sommat , no way am gunna get me freezin mah butt in the joint fo' picking on them grannies'.

 

Darius