The situation in Egypt

[Aurielius]

You obviously see these things in a vacuum; yes it was necessary to oppose Germany during WW2, however without the Treaty of Versailles and its rather draconian measures there never would have existed the political environment for the likes of a Hitler to come to power, because Germany was forced into hyperinflation to pay off its debts as stipulated in the Treaty. Likewise you are continually ignoring the fact that terrorism only exists in the Middle East because we have continually interfered there. Iran was a democratic nation in 1953, yet WE turned them into the nation it is today. Mistake and after mistake and yet people believe we should continue to make the same mistakes over and over.

 

Though I try to keep in mind that you have only been on the planet since 1978, events have occurred prior to your existence that might tend to refute your versions of the facts. You might want to review the events in the Middle East just post WWII when terrorism under the Grand Mufti and in response the Haganah were in full force, which was very much before any involvement of the US in that sector of the world. Since you dismiss both Conservative and Liberal views as Neocolonialism then exactly what does that leave? The intransigence of the makers of the Treaty of Versailles was mostly the French who felt that they could never suffer another invasion of their territory and wanted to prevent that re occurrence (with unfortunate results). It was Woodrow Wilson (an American) who proposed more lenient terms that were not accepted and was the progenitor of the League of Nations which eventually was reborn as the United Nations.

Since you dismiss both mainstreams of American political ideology it is doubtful that any of your views will ever reach actualization, an outcome that the more rational of us breath a sigh of relief in response. Lastly, no where in your lengthly polemic did you bother to refer to EGYPT the topic under discussion.

 

To the other posters who ACTUALLY discussed events in Egypt my apologies for this digression, I now return you to the actual topic under discussion. It is my hope that the difficult process of creating representative institutions and a free and open society for the Egyptians meets with success, revolutions are easier than establishing stable "democratic" governments. we should keep in mind that it took us (the US) two tries to get it right and a Civil War 100 yrs later to rectify the omissions of the Continental Congress. The Brits only achieved their degree of Parliamentary stability after their own civil war and subsequent restoration under Charles II.

[ginnyfizz]

Indeed, Aurelius, I do so appreciate being told that I see things in a vacuum when I am old enough to actually remember some of the events that shaped the current situation in Egypt - not least the fact that an armed to the teeth Israel, heavily backed by the USA and capable of giving them a serious drubbing, concentrated the minds of their leaders wonderfully. If you like, the Egyptians behaved pragmatically. And are highly likely to do so again. It is naive to assume that Western style democracy will ever take a grip in the Middle East, given the rise of the "theocrats" who have always been lurking (Mossadegh wasn't it, whatever you like to think Stardusk), and there has been ruinous internecine feuding going on in the region since before the West got involved. In the case of Egypt, for thousands of years...

[marharth]

Not sure if anyone brought up the Muslim Brotherhood...

 

I did actually, try reading my post...

 

Ill go ahead and post on that.

 

1. THEY ARE NOT TERRORISTS IN ANYWAY!

 

That's highly debatable, try reading this Wikipedia article on The Muslim Brotherhod

 

2. I do not think they even want to be part of elections.

 

Then you think wrong

 

3. Al Qeuda does not like them, no terrorist group likes them. (they are somewhat neutral with Hamas though.)

 

Hamas is actually an offshoot of the Brotherhood

 

4. Anything that is said about them being violent/starting the protests is entirely propaganda and nothing more.

 

No-one said they started the protests

 

5. They believe in spreading Islam through peaceful means.

 

Oh no they don't. They believe in spreading it by any means possible including Jihad - ""The process of settlement is a 'Civilization-Jihadist Process' with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions."

 

Saying the Muslim Brotherhood is going to take over Egypt and be violent is petty equal to saying that the catholic church will take over Italy and be violent.

 

Honestly I m starting to lose hope it will turn out good. I can't believe anyone in the USA could say democratic protests are evil...

 

No-one said that democratic protests are evil, oh and by the way (a) we are not all in the USA and (b) we still have some democracies in Europe, the efforts of the EU notwithstanding.

 

Let us not pretend that the Muslim Brotherhood are benign, they wish for Sharia law and a theocracy.

 

Once more, we are being very naive in expecting the US and other Western Governments to keep out of it. We would not like the results if they did, of that I am quite sure.

The wikipedia article clearly shows they are not terrorists...

 

The Society of the Muslim Brothers (often simply الإخوان Al-Ikhwān, The Brotherhood or MB) is an Islamist transnational movement and the largest political opposition organization in many Arab states. The group is the world's oldest and largest Islamic political group,[1] and the "world's most influential Islamist movement."[2] The Brotherhood has as its slogan "Islam is the solution."[3] It was founded in 1928 in Egypt by the Islamic scholar and schoolteacher Hassan al-Banna.

The Brotherhood's stated goal is to instill the Qur'an and Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state".[4] Since its inception in 1928 the movement has officially opposed violent means to achieve its goals.

 

You can't call something a terrorist group if they have never done anything violent officially.

 

And have you seen Glen Beck on the protests? Bill O Reilly?

 

They are calling the protests evil.

 

A lot of people think they started the protests.

 

Also, I was correct they have made official statements saying they do not wish to be part of it.

 

http://punditpress.blogspot.com/2011/02/muslim-brotherhood-we-want-no-part-in.html

 

Also have a look at their official website, saying they are terrorists after looking at their website is close to insane.

http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=27956

 

Take note the title in the following article is biased, read the entire interview...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,743919,00.html

 

Also Hamas is a OFFSHOOT of the Muslim brotherhood. Why is that? Because they believed in violent means to bring about change so they split up.

 

Can you give any evidence the Muslim Brotherhood are violent? Can you give any evidence that they want to take over Egypt?

Edited February 14, 2011 by marharth

[Aurielius]

 

Can you give any evidence the Muslim Brotherhood are violent? Can you give any evidence that they want to take over Egypt?

We have played this game before where you ask for evidence instead of supporting your claims. This is an old debating ploy to shift the focus away from the fact that you have no facts to back your claim. You claim that the Muslim Brotherhood is benign, prove it. Though Wikepedia may be your bible it is only a user edited encyclopedia , the first resort of the intellectually lazy, not an unimpeachable source. Why don't you try again with some reputable analysis from an accredited source, though that may require actual reading I'm afraid. A good start might be an intelligence précis of the Brotherhood by any western security service, they are available if you care to do your research. Oh, before you try to reverse this, it is not my avocation to do your homework.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Aurielius

[ginnyfizz]

Moreover, Marharth, the following is a direct quote from the Mission Statement of the Muslim Brotherhood, as it were. Once more, with feeling;-

 

"The process of settlement is a 'Civilization-Jihadist Process' with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions."

 

In other words, by any means possible, they wish to destroy Western civilization and force the Kaffir to conform. Which certainly doesn't preclude terrorism. They are religious conservatives who would not permit freedom for women or the practice of their religion to other faiths. How very clever of them to get such as yourself, Marharth, to swallow that line that they themselves are not terrorists and are not political - such organisations as they are have ever been in the habit of saying whatever the naive want to hear to give themselves a respectable veneer. We have experienced that in Britain with certain political parties that are much closer to terrorist organizations than they like to be known.

[marharth]

 

Can you give any evidence the Muslim Brotherhood are violent? Can you give any evidence that they want to take over Egypt?

We have played this game before where you ask for evidence instead of supporting your claims. This is an old debating ploy to shift the focus away from the fact that you have no facts to back your claim. You claim that the Muslim Brotherhood is benign, prove it. Though Wikepedia may be your bible it is only a user edited encyclopedia , the first resort of the intellectually lazy, not an unimpeachable source. Why don't you try again with some reputable analysis from an accredited source, though that may require actual reading I'm afraid. A good start might be an intelligence précis of the Brotherhood by any western security service, they are available if you care to do your research. Oh, before you try to reverse this, it is not my avocation to do your homework.

I gave you direct links to what I said, wikipeida and other sites.

 

You keep saying I am not doing anything to back my claims when your the one who never backs your claims. I gave you direct links to both Wikipedia and there website.

 

I also gave links to news sites, if you want to ignore them that's your issue and you can't just say I am not backing my claims.

 

The thing is you always say "they are available if you do the research" and can never give quotes or links.

 

Don't say I don't back my claims if I have given multiple news links, a Wikipedia article, and there own website.

 

Either read my entire post and the links or don't reply to me claiming I didn't back up what I said with facts.

 

 

@ginnyfizz, where did you get that from? I can't find it on their website and I would like a link...

[ginnyfizz]

It is part of their

 

General Strategic Goal For North America

 

Click the link, and then go to page 21 where there is a translation.

[marharth]

It is part of their

 

General Strategic Goal For North America

 

Click the link, and then go to page 21 where there is a translation.

Whats "http://www.investigativeproject.org/"?

 

I would like to know for sure that they accurately said that and its not something random from one site...

[Nadimos]

Extremist can only live if you give em reason for and west has stolen a lot, has paid dictators, IS paying dictators AND sending weapons. It is idiots attaching to idiots.

:P

 

And afterall you need a reason to go in their right?!

 

That has been prooven a lot of times and together with the media, it is so cheap. :P

 

If i were them, i would just let the sun shine onto what is, make a peacefull revolution, dont be a target, because that is what they want, lol, and if i were us at home in the west, i only would speak the truth and not buy vodafone, when i hear they act as the long arm of the dictatorian regime in egypt by sending propaganda messages and switching of the internet.

 

Sadly tho it seems some have not reached that level of awareness yet or simply dont care or are entertaining their treadmill.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Nadimos

[ginnyfizz]

It is part of their

 

General Strategic Goal For North America

 

Click the link, and then go to page 21 where there is a translation.

Whats "http://www.investigativeproject.org/"?

 

I would like to know for sure that they accurately said that and its not something random from one site...

 

Well, seeing as when you are actually given sources you don't believe them and can't actually be bothered to scan through them, you will have failed to notice that at the very bottom of page 1 there is a stamp indicating that it was used as an exhibit in the case of US v HLF et al, a well known case heard before the District Court in North Texas, Dallas division concerning conspiracy and terrorism, Google it and a load of stuff pops up.

 

And Nadimos - I don't use Vodaphone, I'm with O2 myself. And that statement about some people have not yet reached that level of awareness is quite astonishing. Some of us have actually been around long enough to have reached quite a high state of awareness, and despite being old, are capable of using the internet and media and coming to our own conclusions, which may not be the politically correct or popular on the forums here ones.