How to rehabilitate the vicims of crimes and the innocent.

[SilverDNA]

A society is not only judged by the means of punishment. but by the means how it treats the innocent and the victims of crimes as well as the weak of a society, who face discrimination every day.

So since "What would be the best way to punish criminals?" is so popular in debates, I raise a simple question What if this topic don't gets as much response than "What would be the best way to punish criminals?" ? Are People fast to dish out punishments as long as it is not themselves that gets punished and is the engagement the same when to rehabilitate an innocent a victim of a crime or the weak of society.

 

What can we do better in rehabilitate the innocent, the victims and the weak?

Is what society is doing enough or not?

Could there be improvements?

 

I ask myself every time i hear of better punishments for criminals. and then this sentence surfaces in my mind over and over again.

"I hear much of people's calling out to punish the guilty, but very few are concerned to clear the innocent."

An Appeal To Honour And Justice, Though It Be of His Worst Enemies

Daniel Defoe

 

 

 

This topic is an social experiment to see if we are more full of malicious joy or if we are more compassionate as humans.

This is a bit related to the Milgram experiment and similar studies.

 

Edited February 20, 2011 by SilverDNA

[grannywils]

When I read your quote I immediately thought of The Count of Monte Cristo, a wonderful novel. Then when I read your spoiler and looked up the Milgram Experiment, I was a bit confused. I'm not sure I entirely get the connection between the two of them or between them and your thread's subject. But I will do my best.

 

I think I understand what you are getting at with respect to the rehabilitation of the weak in our society or the victims not only of crime but of life in general. You seem to be saying we are quick to cry out for vengence against the criminal element, but why not spend more time looking after those who are unable to look after themselves. If I am mistaken, please let me know.

 

From the little I read of the Milgram Experiment the attempt seemed to be to find the humanity in us or to see how willing we were to follow the rules regardless of our own personal values. And I guess you are saying why do we not seem able to do that consciously without someone having to force it upon us. I cannot answer you. All I can say is that I for one, do try to think of the weak among us, and I firmly believe that they only salvation for society can come one person at a time. The mob mentality tends to lean towards the negative.

 

I do not think that this is much of a response to your thread, and I will think about it some more, but it is an excellent one, as yours usually are. They always get me thinking, and my brain cells stewing around. Thank you for that, Silver.

[Harbringe]

In my opinion there is no true rehabilitation of victims or the innocent as long as the possibility of what happened to them ,could happen again.Before you can begin to heal the wounds that have been inflicted on them ,they have to know and feel that they are safe ,with out that its a festering scar they carry with them for most if not all their days.

 

Honestly I think your mixing oil and water in your OP .Punishment is reactive yet your drawing an associate meaning with it in regards to helping victims of crime or what I assume would be wrongly convicted innocents and any actions you do towards that is proactive .

 

It does raise an interesting query though ,it is true we seem to be more quick to cast the first stone or scapegoat that which offends our sensibilities ,something like crime ,yet raise little concern for innocents or victims and this just doesn't apply solely to something like crime and punishment .Take the economic collapse of 2008 .The people who had set up the whole housing scam had been doing that for years and taking peoples homes for years ,yet no one said anything until the whole thing went bust and they then became the ones in danger of losing their home.Really when it comes to these sorts of questions is it just a matter of what doesn't afflict me is of no concern to me ,cause that seems to be the way most people look at things these days and that is a sad commentary on human beings as a species.

[WizardOfAtlantis]

Excellent thread, SilverDNA.http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/thumbsup.gif

"Protect the weak, defenseless, helpless, and fight for the general welfare of all."

That is a summary of the more important ethics of the Chivalric Code. Of course, knights never really did worry about those things, historically speaking. They were generally too busy murdering and pillaging to spend any energy on such lofty ideals. However, since I am a proponent of taking older archetypes and bringing them into the modern day and age, and making them work for real, I say that such a code is exactly what is needed today. And why? Because it is so sorely lacking. It needs to be to fill the gap. New Age and/or self-help books sell so damn many copies because there is felt this need in the world, and people are willing to pay to fill it (or more likely, pay to think they are filling it, as reading is nothing without the actualization of some form of mechanics which bring an ideal into real-world physicality and existence).

Protecting the weak is the duty and honor of the truly strong. It is so very easy to punish (and subsequently feel righteous), and even easier than that when there is a physical separation between the punisher and the punished as there almost always is in the world. I think there would be less bloodlust overall if the aggrieved had to meet out the punishment with his/her own hands. I also think, though, that when it was actually done, it might very well be more...spectacular. Prisons are a handy way to just put an uncomfortable subject somewhere else and forget about it.

Responsibility is an endangered species these days. Personal responsibility, that which should strike home the quickest, would be the starting place for developing a responsible attitude towards one's fellow man, woman, and child, of all nations and creeds. However, I see a lot of irresponsible people in the world. I often am forced to look upon people and think they're some species of jumped-up monkey instead of a human, or what I would call a human. Of course, that's an insult to monkeys because monkeys in their own environment show more sense.

I personally despise the fact that we live in a world of laws. That may sound strange, but I find it a despicable thing that people don't know how to act unless some other person tells them how to. I don't need laws for myself. I know what I want to do and I'm not going to infringe upon the personal safety or well-being of another human being unless I feel it's actually necessary (I would be one of those to meet out punishment with my own hands if I had to) simply because it's the right thing to do. I don't need some other person telling me how I should act. That is not only completely unnecessary, as I am sure that my own code is better for me and the world than what is generally told me, but I find it also very insulting and presumptuous.

So what is done for the weak? Where are the champions? Society has grown in the last few centuries, and we do take better care of each other than we did even within living memory (things like welfare, pensions, etc). But rehabilitating the victims, the truly innocent or grievously attacked? That's a difficult bag of beans. Ultimately, aside from some basic psychological care in getting someone back on their feet, so to speak, the real answers are still very slippery...as is where this has ultimately led me in this discussion. How to explain to a child, for example, that it was some universal will that took mommy and daddy away, or get it across to the kid that crap *just happens* (which is a cop out). Without some grasp on the big answers, people are ultimately left to find their own way in the universe so where could anything but the basics in post-traumatic care get you anyway if you ask enough questions?

Sorry for the long-winded typing. http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/teehee.gif

[Nadimos]

Nvm me. Actually kinda got tired. Edited February 19, 2011 by Nadimos

[Harbringe]

Excellent post Wiz

 

Did anyone notice that once this thread was introduced , the other threads about Death Penalty and How to Punish Criminals lept above this thread in the response order of threads

 

Just thought that was kinda telling.

[Aurielius]

Excellent post Wiz

 

Did anyone notice that once this thread was introduced , the other threads about Death Penalty and How to Punish Criminals lept above this thread in the response order of threads

 

Just thought that was kinda telling.

Don't you think it is because all three thread concepts are interconnected? Or do you see some conspiracy afoot that I am missing? This thread could also explore the expansion of Victims Rights to violent crime as a counter to the other threads, but confine the focus to the victims only.

Edited February 20, 2011 by Aurielius

[SilverDNA]

Sure I noticed Harbringe.

... and the eagerness alone to respond to those topics is alone worth an own topic ... this topic.

You may have only gotten the idealistic view of this topic but there is a realistic one too and some philosophical/ethical question that comes along with that.

 

Here an basic example of last weeks headlines from my country:

A man was beaten up ( much kicks to the head while he was lying on the ground) in a subway station by 4 youths ( ithink 14 to 17 years old)the Officials even investigate the theft of the jacked of the victim because a witness stole it. From 20 to 30 witnesses of what happened only one had the guts to call the police. aside from the many cameras that did watch the crime happen.

 

Now the youths and the witness who stole the jacket are facing about 3 to 10 years sentences maybe even less on probation. while the victim will get not much out of it ( i approximately guess 3000 €) and will have a lifetime problems because of the serve brain injury (doctors had to put him to coma but are sure the damage is permanent) from those kicks to the head.

 

Now the questions :

-Now if you had to choose on what your life would be in the end would you be more offender or the victim?

 

-Who punishes whom for what more?

 

-Is this the society punishing for their own failure to protect the victim, the victim more or the offenders and why ???

 

-And if the society and the Law is calling that justice could this be possible completely wrong because it is acceptable that the society punishes only from the point that this was against the laws of the society it self but not against a member of this so called society that has now to suffer for a whole lifetime form this attack?

 

As always I only ask from my humble readers to answer this quietly for themselves.

Edited February 21, 2011 by SilverDNA

[grannywils]

Silver, your topic just brings up so many, many subjects at least to my mind. I have already spoken once in this thread, and would really rather leave it now to others.

 

However, I would like to just respond to one thing that you mentioned here in your very last post; that being the beating suffered by one person at the hands of several people. You said that this was witnessed by 30 or 40 people, and only one called the police.

 

I have very mixed emotions when I hear this paticular story. One might say, "why did people not come to the defense of the victim?". But that is easy to say, when we were not there and do not know all of the circumstances. But to at least call for help seems like a logical move, and for only one person to do this is rather sad.

 

I remember once many years ago when I witnessed a person being mugged in a subway station in New York. There were dozens of people streaming past this incident, and no one even looked at what was happening. I did look, but felt frightened for my own safety. I yelled that I would get the police; and I rushed out of the station and ran down the street to locate a policeman and directed him to the scene. I later wondered, if I should have personally intervened; but I do not believe that I should have. I had no means of subduing the muggers. But I did what I thought I could to try and help the victim. What amazed me though was the number of people who "seemed" not to care at all.

 

We had an incident in New York City many, many years ago, where a woman named Kitty Genovese was brutally attacked in the street. She screamed for help. I do not remember all the details anymore, but apparently over 20 people watched this happen from their windows, and none even bothered to call the police. I cannot remember all of the specifics, but I am pretty sure she died as a result of this beating (and maybe rape). This was a public street, not a dark back alley. No one took the time to help her.

 

It is understandable for people to feel personal fear in the face of danger, and we all have to make choices about what kinds of sacrifices we are willing to make in that respect. The same goes for the expenditure of funds on behalf of the needy. But when it comes to helping our brothers and sisters in need when there is relatively little cost to ourselves, physical, emotional, spiritual or financial; it is very hard for me to understand the sense of ennui that I sometimes see in humanity.

 

 

[SilverDNA]

Silver, your topic just brings up so many, many subjects at least to my mind. I have already spoken once in this thread, and would really rather leave it now to others.

 

However, I would like to just respond to one thing that you mentioned here in your very last post; that being the beating suffered by one person at the hands of several people. You said that this was witnessed by 30 or 40 people, and only one called the police.

 

I have very mixed emotions when I hear this paticular story. One might say, "why did people not come to the defense of the victim?". But that is easy to say, when we were not there and do not know all of the circumstances. But to at least call for help seems like a logical move, and for only one person to do this is rather sad.

 

I remember once many years ago when I witnessed a person being mugged in a subway station in New York. There were dozens of people streaming past this incident, and no one even looked at what was happening. I did look, but felt frightened for my own safety. I yelled that I would get the police; and I rushed out of the station and ran down the street to locate a policeman and directed him to the scene. I later wondered, if I should have personally intervened; but I do not believe that I should have. I had no means of subduing the muggers. But I did what I thought I could to try and help the victim. What amazed me though was the number of people who "seemed" not to care at all.

 

We had an incident in New York City many, many years ago, where a woman named Kitty Genovese was brutally attacked in the street. She screamed for help. I do not remember all the details anymore, but apparently over 20 people watched this happen from their windows, and none even bothered to call the police. I cannot remember all of the specifics, but I am pretty sure she died as a result of this beating (and maybe rape). This was a public street, not a dark back alley. No one took the time to help her.

 

It is understandable for people to feel personal fear in the face of danger, and we all have to make choices about what kinds of sacrifices we are willing to make in that respect. The same goes for the expenditure of funds on behalf of the needy. But when it comes to helping our brothers and sisters in need when there is relatively little cost to ourselves, physical, emotional, spiritual or financial; it is very hard for me to understand the sense of ennui that I sometimes see in humanity.

 

 

Sorry for my absence because i was working on a project I had only minimal time here. (only to read)

Are the witnesses that don't help more closer to the victim or the violator granny? Aside from that little point it is a good post.

 

But in a society where victims get punished double time for only being victims, law and justice faill utterly and can you call this then a state and a country if this happens to a bunch of people ?

Now I take this topic to the next level what would be if a group that I could name with one or two words would face this more often than others because of discrimination from the police and from judges and from politicians.

think twice if this is not possible.