Libyan Civil War

[ginnyfizz]

Darius, you really cannot be serious. I am British and it is certainly news to me that Ghadaffi financed more than half of British universities. Do you actually have any proof or are you just spouting off? Are you seriously trying to suggest that excuses his misdeeds?

 

I find your advocacy of the dictatorial mode of government truly disturbing. I have relatives still living who can testify to the misery of Uncle Joe's gulags. Sadly, the ones who could have borne witness to Adolf Hitler's camps did not survive the experience. What does not seem to occur to you is that Ghaddafi has probably bought or terrorised all these apparent government supporters.

[Aurielius]

Gaddafi financed half of the world with oil and riches, one of the most famous is Great Britain, more then half of universities in Britain was financed by Gaddafi and it is very well known.

 

This is news to me, politely put, it's patently false. You wouldn't mind citing your source would you?

 

Today, France is raising their voices against their former oil vein Libya, as their oil contract expired last year. It's the same with everyone else, they want a piece of this cake, but, bad news, they will not achieve it.

 

Libya sells most of it's oil to Europe so if Kaddffi still wants income to pay off his mercenaries he will have to sell his oil to someone.

 

I saw great results of Colonel in his own country, and rebels are not in a big number compares with the government supporters, actually, there is more those who support Gaddafi in there, then the insurgents. That is because people there know what he did for their country. The rest who tried to take over are bunch of radical animals, traitors and deserters.

 

Civilian insurgents lack training of which zeal cannot make up for, but if they survive they will acquire 'on the job training', Though from a strictly impartial military analysis I admit that the rebels position is grim, but the Libyan desert has supported insurgencies in the past and can do so again if they are determined enough. The longer the Rebels survive the higher the chance that some power will insert spec ops advisors.

 

They even took a victiorious picture near a crashed airplane with the pilot's body still inside. And guess what? He didn't have head on his shoulders on the picture.

Truly a 'democratic' ways to gain 'freedom' from a 'dictator and a madman'. The ways of democracy amaises me more and more , day by day.

 

I think your exposure to true open democracy is what is lacking, it isn't the best system it's just better than the alternatives.

 

When this picture unfolds completely and Khamis brigade have their hands on the leaders of this blatant and uneccessary 'uprising', they are, hopefully, beat out the confession out of them, about who financed all this mess for real. For what it is financed, we all know very well, it's for more money, power and oil.

 

Your tacit acceptance of confession by torture is something that I find somewhat disturbing, it seems that the concept of a spontaneous uprising is too foreign for you to accept. Would not the prior examples of spontaneous revolt in Hungary and Czechoslovakia convince you that this is a possibility?

 

And the best thing is, that Misrata is falling from te rebel hands today. Next station- Beghazi! http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/thumbsup.gif And that would be the end of mighty and glorious rebel movement of Libya. I say, flee , better then to wait for an upcoming ridiculous punishment for the crimes against the state. For their own sake , if they worry about their lives. If not, then die like men, not like cowards, calling for help of the world powers.

 

Have you ever read George Orwell's 1984? I think you might find it enlightening but I think I am sure which side you would root for.

 

'If the opposition disarms, all is well and good. If not.. we shall disarm it ourselves.'

Moranda

 

Darius, your military appraisal I can find no salient fault with.... but your political appraisal is strongly colored by the fondness for strict authoritative regimes which 'provide' security but at a terrible price. I still like the ability to berate my leaders without being hauled off for lack of 'truthspeak' (1984 reference).

[ginnyfizz]

Precisely, Aurelius. In the sort of strong arm authoritarian regime Darius seems to admire so much, I would not have the ability to refer to either Mr President, the current Prime Minister or the arch phoney himself, Tony Blah Blah, in irreverent terms. Watching BBC Parliament would not be nearly so much fun if the MP's had to bow and scrape to the Great Leader rather than putting them under the verbal cosh. As for the idea of being force fed truthspeak...it gives me the overwhelming desire to yell "Aw, NUTS!"

[grannywils]

Have nothing cogent to say on this topic, other than something I mentioned in another thread. I believe that Kaddafi is a very dangerous man, clearly out of his mind.

 

What I really got on here now to say was that I just love to listen to you Ginny. You are bright and witty and always make me laugh. Thanks for that.

 

[JimboUK]

Gaddafi financed half of the world with oil and riches, one of the most famous is Great Britain, more then half of universities in Britain was financed by Gaddafi and it is very well known.

 

Today, France is raising their voices against their former oil vein Libya, as their oil contract expired last year. It's the same with everyone else, they want a piece of this cake, but, bad news, they will not achieve it.

 

I saw great results of Colonel in his own country, and rebels are not in a big number compares with the government supporters, actually, there is more those who support Gaddafi in there, then the insurgents. That is because people there know what he did for their country. The rest who tried to take over are bunch of radical animals, traitors and deserters.

 

They even took a victiorious picture near a crashed airplane with the pilot's body still inside. And guess what? He didn't have head on his shoulders on the picture.

 

Truly a 'democratic' ways to gain 'freedom' from a 'dictator and a madman'. The ways of democracy amaises me more and more , day by day.

 

When this picture unfolds completely and Khamis brigade have their hands on the leaders of this blatant and uneccessary 'uprising', they are, hopefully, beat out the confession out of them, about who financed all this mess for real. For what it is financed, we all know very well, it's for more money, power and oil.

 

And the best thing is, that Misrata is falling from te rebel hands today. Next station- Beghazi! http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/thumbsup.gif And that would be the end of mighty and glorious rebel movement of Libya. I say, flee , better then to wait for an upcoming ridiculous punishment for the crimes against the state. For their own sake , if they worry about their lives. If not, then die like men, not like cowards, calling for help of the world powers.

 

'If the opposition disarms, all is well and good. If not.. we shall disarm it ourselves.'

 

Moranda

 

I don't think you'll find Gaddafi financed "more then half of universities in Britain" or in fact "half of the world", as with most dictators Gaddafi has lined his own pockets and those of his cronies while the people have gone without.

[DariusMoranda]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1364054/Muammar-Gaddafis-sons-linked-2-UK-universities.html

 

 

 

http://www.france24.com/en/20110304-london-school-economics-lse-gaddafi-university-business-donations-howard-davies-uk

 

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8374305/Libya-Leeds-University-latest-to-disclose-ties-with-Gaddafi-regime.html

 

 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/gaddafi-son-tells-sarkozy-to-return-money/story-e6frf7jx-1226022932520

 

 

And many, many more. I can't even count how many links I got, these are just a few examples.

 

And of course, Gaddafi himself studied in Great Britain in his youth. Brits have a long military history and they posses fine military schools, I don't think that Colonel forgot the places where he expanded his knowledge.

 

Aurelius-

 

Civilian insurgents have help from uniforms since the start of this whole mess. I agree on the poor training but they aren't all lacking the knowledge. There are many , many experienced fighters among them, fundamentalists and mercenaries from neighbor states, involved in terrorism til their necks, they know shock war and demolition quite good. I agree that they are weaker now then Gaddafi's army, but they were stronger in the start, they had much more advantages in many aspects , compares to Moammar. They caught him unready and prepared and they pushed a huge line there, took over major cities , strategic and tactical keys everywhere. They just didn't know how to finish it. That is a gravely mistake in military aspect, which costs a lot and will cost much more then they can handle. They pushed the wrong button, leaning on imaginary shoulders of the world powers, thinking that they will overthrow Gaddafi like it was done in Egypt and Tunis. Now what? They are getting floored on an hour basis , not daily basis anymore. And, you know, I don't blame them for this war. I blame them for stupidity and not caring for the people, just someone's interest. I strongly believe that these people are being used as cannon meat, nothing else. Though, they will be the ones who will pay a high price, not those shadows in the corner of their rooms, unfortunately.

 

Rebels are separated from their downfall with just a few days. And I feel pity for them, because or the stupidity, their own lives are at steak. It is a sad thing when people die over nothing. If it was for anything else then power, it would be honor in my eyes. This what they done to their own land... You know, it really makes me sad. Libya was rich and a good place to live for their people. Now the streets are filled with ashes and stone. That's indeed a huge waste. Ruins become beautiful with time passing by, but the ways of making the ruins are not beautiful at all.

 

I don't support torture, I never performed such an act nor I would, but I think that angry people on Gaddafi's side will demand a rough press on the orchestrators, so, in my opinion, the dark hours will come to the prisoners who will fall under regime's fist. Those ones who were satisfied with their country before this, has every right to demand punishment for those who tried to rip apart that painting.

 

Uprising in Hungary in 1956 was organized and performed by ex fascist and nazi renegades who mercilessly ruled the Balkan parts in WW2. They commit atrocities against Serbs in Vojvodina, killing thousands by throwing them into a frozen river, after cutting of their hands , feet and chair rape, also , tied up in a barbed wire.

 

They made people to do pushups over the half buried bayonet, even.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Vojvodina,_1941-1944 with the details. 'Nice' folks.

 

They got their nose rubbed for that by Yugoslavian army and Soviets later , then they became angry again. Then they got their prize again.

 

Imre Nagy was a double agent between Hungarian nationalists and Stalin's NKVD. Paul Meleter was an invader on Stalingrad and one of famous war criminals , who served viciously under Horty's regime.He , as well, was trained by Soviets after his arrest and sent back to fight his own ex comrades. Both of them were two faced players, who wanted cookies on both sides. That kind of people usually end up miserably, like these two did.

 

They were guilty for many deaths in their career, before the revolution.

 

As for my brothers Slovaks and Czechs, they had a revolution because they coudln't stand each other , between the two people. It wasn't only because or a repressive regime, it was more a lack of tolerance to each other, which saddens me greatly.

 

As for totalitarian regimes, I don't support them. I support strong arm when it comes to big problems, only that.

 

And of course I have read the book. I am a big fan of the movie as well with Hurt and Burton, as well as being a huge fan or electro/pop/dark wave music giants Eurythmics, they have the song names 1984 which was included in the movie, I love the song, too.

 

The book describes something much more then totalitarianism. It is more of an absolute/cult/obsessive regime, something that I would't like to really exists on this planet, it is a level above then the level known to human.

 

Gaddafi's a summer cold compares to the thing in the book and movies.

I know more good things about him then bad, he isn't perfect, he is eccentric and theatrical sometimes, l but he's fair and his word is valued, what he says , he does, at least he is honest that much in the world of politics, the nest of liars and manipulators.

 

And he's one sharp dresser. ;) j/k

 

Moranda

 

 

Small update-Benghazi is ready to fall. Libyan tanks and artillery is occupying the region, with leaving the eastern corridor free, for the rebels to escape to the egyptian border. Colonel said that they will not chase them down, nor kill them, they asked rebels to leave , never to return. They have deadline to leave and it seems that the opposition leaders are starting to crack down.

Edited March 16, 2011 by DariusMoranda

[DarkeWolf]

One thing that I'm curious about. His air force is what is giving them the majority of the trouble for the rebels. It's hard to fight jets that are dropping bombs on you. But... why arent the rebels going after his airfields? I mean... jets in the air are hard to fight, but awfully darned easy to fight when they're on the ground with no pilots in them.

Mortars and other long range capabilities could seriously hamper his air capacity.

And those are relatively cheap.

 

Ya know... the more that I see this guy on TV, the more it's becoming very obvious that he's not in his full mental capacity. But yet the couple of interviews that I've seen of his family members, they're a pretty hateful, butthead bunch. I'm really starting to wonder if Gadaffi is a puppet. And his family is the ones really running the show, filling his head with a bunch of crap. Would be pretty easy, considering that he doesn't seem to have a very firm grasp of reality.

[JimboUK]

A couple of iffy donations does not equal "Funding half the universities", we must have very underfunded universities if that small amount makes much difference. As for Sarkozy is there any evidence that Gaddafi funded his election? are we to take the ranting of Gaddafis "mini me" as gospel?

 

@ DarkeWolf as far as I know these airfields are in the west where Gaddafi is still in control.

[ginnyfizz]

Yes, I just checked out the links. So King's College London and the LSE accepted donations from Ghadaffi? Big deal! I know that we in Britain have the reputation of being ill educated, but we still have an awful lot more universities than that.

 

And I LOL'd at that bit where Mad Mo is saying that his good buddy Sarko is off his pram. That really is the pot calling the kettle black.

 

Darius, your views are still profoundly disturbing, not to mention contradictory. On the one hand you clearly support the iron fist type of rule that allows no form of dissent nor opposition and grinds down the conquered. You idolise Ghadaffi. On the other, you mention the massacre of Serbs, who were the conquered, in Vojvodina. Now you are quite right in saying that this massacre was a monstrosity and a war crime. So how on earth can you support regimes of the very type that perpetrated such an atrocity?

[DariusMoranda]

Yes, I just checked out the links. So King's College London and the LSE accepted donations from Ghadaffi? Big deal! I know that we in Britain have the reputation of being ill educated, but we still have an awful lot more universities than that.

 

And I LOL'd at that bit where Mad Mo is saying that his good buddy Sarko is off his pram. That really is the pot calling the kettle black.

 

Darius, your views are still profoundly disturbing, not to mention contradictory. On the one hand you clearly support the iron fist type of rule that allows no form of dissent nor opposition and grinds down the conquered. You idolise Ghadaffi. On the other, you mention the massacre of Serbs, who were the conquered, in Vojvodina. Now you are quite right in saying that this massacre was a monstrosity and a war crime. So how on earth can you support regimes of the very type that perpetrated such an atrocity?

 

The fact is, I don't support autocrat regimes, I support iron law, that is just one of the many segments in one regime.

 

I wouldn't kill my political opponents if I were a ruler, nor I would put them in prison or have them expelled from the country. If people aren't satisfied with my rule, I would step down, without waiting for elections to take care of me. But if a mass gathers and wants your head for no reason, calling their meeting a peaceful revolution, then I would act seriously. No killing innocents or killing at all if it is not needed, such rigorous ways are the last option in dealing with those kind of situations. Why would anyone kill people if not provoked and pushed over the limit with a situation which is life threatening? I'd sent some serious police force and impose some discipline, until we sit down and to resolve the situation peacefully.

 

And yes, Serbs were massacred in Vojvodina. By a foreign <<<<< force, not internal one. They were killed on direct order of Hitler and the rest of Axis gang. They were killed in ways beyond a nightmare.

 

Gaddafi didn't threw his people in a frozen river, nor he made them to swallow rusty nails, neither called on a mass rape or killing little kids with hammers, for no reason. He didn't kill 70 000 people for his own amusement.

 

He is fighting a war over there, and in war, people die. On both sides. They die from bullets , shells, mines, etc. They don't have to torture each other just to be dead, they shoot on each other , simple as that.

 

He did a fair game tonight. Offered the rebels to leave the country in peace. And I do believe that many of them will leave their strongholds without worrying about their lives.

 

He could have call upon a total extermination, but he didn't. That makes him different then the dictators you think he is connected with. Describing like you do, I imagine someone like Pol Pot, not Gaddafi. And there is a huuuuge difference between the two.

 

Libyan war is over tomorrow, hopefully, and I do hope that people will walk Libya freely again and to work their jobs and spend time with families. It is a long road to recover, but it can be done with a good will and dedication .

 

Moranda