AWOP Low Loot and other patches.

[ApocalypticGirl]

Just noticed this thread! I've been keeping a close eye out for a low loot update, since you're going through the effort to get some feedback I shall attempt to offer some. Going to offer a slightly different perspective from the others who have commented here based on mod and play style.

 

The single biggest reason why I went with the low loot version was to get rid of all of the M-designated stuff. Even though I never used them before I had found out that I had a ridiculous amount of money in short order just from selling one or two of them. For me this really messed up the economy, which I have set as being quite difficult. Looting is my primary means of resupplying, suddenly having thousands of caps on hand takes away from the feeling of needing to scavenge. From my own view those items were way overpowered, personally I don't believe that making tougher groups of enemies is the solution to the problem. Is there really a necessity for the M-classed gear? They seem to disrupt the balance of difficulty a good amount and, for some, could be seen as immersion breakers.

 

If the M stuff is taken out then some less tough enemies in the beginning area would be fantastic. I barely had leather armor long enough to repair it before I snagged a nice set of combat armor off of one of the baddies, been set ever since. This is with the low loot version, as well.

 

I'm also using a slower XP mod and have not noticed any real issues in using AWOP. I'm leveling at a predictable pace for how my game is configured, zero complaints there.

 

Clutter was good, I'm running WME and a mod which allows crafting of the weapon mods. Specifically, the mod that requires some significant amount of bits and pieces to be rounded up for each component, so being able to resupply in these areas has been a great help. Even beyond AWOP I have a mod which allows looting scrap material out of the cars I happen by and I still find myself running short at times. I'm probably the minority here (love a good challenge,) so if there's less clutter I'll still find ways to survive!

 

Skill books, I could be spending a very long time trying to search out every skill book in the game so coming across the occasional one tucked away in AWOP is a pleasant surprise. I enjoy their inclusion, doesn't seem too frequent and it's usually a challenge to reach them.

 

The optional files you mention in the initial post sound quite ambitious! The Vault 24 one is particularly intriguing, though the other ones I would skip over and stick with a core low loot version. From my own side of things that's a lot of stuff that I just have no interest in, what caused me to love AWOP is because it adds new areas to explore without making things overly complicated. It seems like it was a part of the original game content that had been cut, everything fits in nicely and doesn't 'rock the boat,' as it were. My own thought is to keep it simple! A mod this good doesn't need a bunch of fancy stuff crammed into it, but that's just my view. *smiles*

 

Thanks for taking interest in user feedback and good luck with the modding!

[djmystro]

ApocalypticGirl : Thanks for the big post. A lot to think about there.

I think after your post I will stick with the idea of one mod with M Weapons but generally less stuff all round (weapons, ammo, clutter books etc) and one mod but without the M weapons (or 95% of them at least) and most of the other stuff left in (I guess that way you can run them both and have a very Low Loot game).

I don't see the M weapons as immersion breaking for many reasons:

Mainly, the majority of the weapons in game already break immesion and lore for me so I am trying to set that right.

Minigun - Used to be one of the most powerful weapons in the game (pre-FO3). Now it's just a heavy lump of ammo wastage.

Gauss Rifle - Was *the* most powerful weapon in the game (apart from the Gauss Minigun) and was not limited to single shot, (I reallly hate single shot weapons) (again, pre FO3).

All greanade launchers: These things nearly kill the gameplay entirely for me. I can't believe how useless they are as standard. I don't use 'em and I can't begin to imagine why the damage is so low.

Weapon Spread: No where near as bad in NV as is was in FO3 but I had to look into this all the same to be on the safe side. There is no way bullets should fly out of the end of a gun at a 45% angle. Just none, unless the barrel of your gun is bust.

Anti-Matrial Rifle: Fire bullets bigger than your hand and yet won't even do 50% damage to most vanilla enemies which due to the slow fire rate and high noise makles it useless when compared with the sniper rifle.

Those are just a few examples but it is something I feel very strongly about and for me personally the M weapons are essential. If I had any criticizms it would be that the shotguns feel a little unrealistic now but I guess that's coz they worked OK in the first place.

 

There are lots of new ways to spend your caps in 0.4. The Goodsprings Player House now costs 5000 caps, a single dose of Concentr8 can set you back as much as 2500 caps and if you wan't a modified 308 Marksman Carbine before battling the Tech Raiders you'll have to fork out over 10,000 caps. The Carbine is one of bewteen four to six 'M' weapons I plan to leave in (most of the others are listed above plus the Hyper-Sledge and The Heavy Incinerator M which are quest items).

 

The patches (if all run at the same time) will end up breaking standard FO lore. My final vision is one where everywhere is an incredibly hostile and deadly place to be apart from the friendly towns which will be well protected safe havens. You will burn through thousands of rounds in minutes on hundreds of different enemies. Fast travel will most likely be out of the question beacause of too many enemeies about. My FO3 setup was like this. Entering a place like the Dunwich Building was an escape rather than the challengle. The trails of dead bodies too... I never seen anything like it. Three or four deep in places.

 

If that's not the game you had in mind then fair enough. Personally that's what I'm after. A ridiculously relentless weapons testing ground with just enough ammo and armor littered about to get by past the increasingly touger enemies. I'm thinking a bit like a cross between Fallout, Borderlands and Good old 'Smash TV', only with even more guns than in them (and real ones to boot).

 

Thanks again for your opinions.

Edited March 13, 2011 by djmystro

[Antioche]

Obviously, first of all; thank you VERY much for the mod. Re playability is key to me in these games, your mod makes exploring the world a multiple-character experience.

 

As far as low-loot rules go, I had to laugh when I saw your comment "It's..um..ALL low loot..just 'don't take it' .." you were spot-on correct; no doubt.

 

The trouble with me is this : I try to run the game 'As if it were me..' ..and this means, if it's not bolted down; i take it ! I store it or scrap it and turn it into a lampshade at one of Veronica and mines' multiple hide-holes.

So, for the pack rat-minded; that's just not an option. I already look like the Grinch-who-stole-Christmas whenever I trudge back to my home with things; but I also EXPECT to have to do that "every-trip-out" as it were.

 

I run without fast travel, and with as hyper-realistic a settings as possible,

 

( slow leveling; IMCN's needs backing up hardcore mode, Imp's power-armor mod, BAN-Ammo reloading, a damage mod, WMX as well as others.)

 

Thus..every time I come across a prospect-able spot in the wasteland; I loot-sort-haul my buttocks back to whatever hovel is near, I enjoy the mad-max aspect of it; you know? 'finding several shotgun shells, testing each one to find those his fingers would't tear through the casings on' With a good reloading mod running, as I have; It's enjoyable to NEED to hit that ammo bench from time to time to keep a favored weapon running ( like a 12mm~! )

 

When it becomes a 'bother' is when a single-encounter nets SO much loot; you have to make several trips back to it to bring everything about. but that's again a matter of 'pack-rat' syndrome more than anything. but that's what the game is about..amassing 'survival loot' ( I think anyhow.. ) as you travel through the wastes.

 

The "M" style weapons are abit of a 'huh?' ..No real basis in why they are better? Old Military Cache-style versions maybe. They do seem..redundant, Especially when so many of us run WMX or a like-mod, and already HAVE mods loaded that enhance damage; or lower limb resistance to damage. it just creates an entirely new set of weapons in the game to try and hoard above and beyond 'vanilla' ones.. It's as if all 'M' style weapons are stepbretheren of the unique weapons ( hard to locate ) and it cheapens them overall.

 

Love the skill books, they fill the gaps as you level, you NEED every skill in the game, so having only what two? for each total? ridiculous.

 

Absolutely LOVE the stories !!! I think NV is VERY story-driven; and the various little glimpses into the lives, and deaths; of folk are often unsettling; and ALWAYS welcome! (Would enjoy helping out with any of that if you find yourself swamped! )

 

I would say, lessen ammo, thus keeping reloading workbenches happy and warm.

 

Add in primers, casings and powder in their place perhaps?

 

Drastically (~ edit now 'slightly ~' ) reduce the number of hopped up armors and weapons ( M ) style in the encounters.

 

MAYBE having the "named" in any said encounter having a special milspec version of a known weapon..But still NOT as good as a unique-version hidden deep in the game. ( What does the M stand for? ) oh and PLEASE tell me the weapons you add will be moddable with WMX !

 

((Edit ~ looking at the new Var. rifle ( m ) and it's not THAT much better; which is GOOD imo, and they arrn't exactly dropping like flies, there was ONE in the cig. factory, ( dead prospector in the bathroom ) and NONE in the skydiving hovel! except the sweet 12.7mm; and the guy with the plasma rifle. As such, if it stays along those lines throughout your game encounters? top shelf... I still think there should be less ammo though.

 

Anyhow, thats my two-cents. just DL'd the latest version, and I'm crawling along through it now. Have to use Victor's shack as a home base; 5000caps for Frankies' rental? damn! ....love it...

 

Thanks a million for your work, I'll definitely keep tracking your file ! Shoot me an IM if you like!

 

 

~ Jack Burton ( ME ! )

Edited March 15, 2011 by Antioche

[djmystro]

Hey Jack - cheers for the big post and all your opinions/ideas.

I tend to play the game in the same manner you described (Kind of like so that if I got 'Tron-ned' into the game I would have all I need to survive or something like that). My play style differs though as I tend to hoard guns, ammo, armor, books & food (no misc stuff apart from essentials). Just all the basic stuff you would need if you wanted to say, start your own Army and bring and end to all the inter-faction sqaubbling in the Wastes.

 

Fast travel is not an option for me at the moment either. I still have it active but all the extra enemy mods I have combined with ED-E's perception boost means it's only worked a couple of times in the last day of playing.

I don't have many gameplay modifiers myself though. Hardened would be the closest I have to that myself.

 

I like the idea of the ammo bench being a necassary resource. I'll look into dropping more rare ammo bench supplies about. I actually took a few out in the low loot patch I was just working on but since that is no longer working I'll avoid it next time.

 

Any areas in particular where you have to make several trips?

I can think of a few that could cause this so I'll list 'em and if you have any further comments just let me know:

Underground Weapon Resarch Facility (under Nipton/Ivanpah): Has a small Armory and tons of books, plus all the scrap from the robots and tools from the labs = Lots of heavy objects.

Underground Emergency Station: Has the Tech Raider Armory in it. Loads of stuff in there plus lots of random gear lying around the varoius store rooms and sorting offices.

Bonnie Spings Sewer - Spring Mount Visitor Centre: Not overloaded in terms of interior loot but since the place is packed with Supermutants chances are you will walk away with several MiniGuns, Missile Launchers, Incinerators etc... all very heavy wepaons.

 

I guess it would be easy enough to get overloaded in The Underground as for the most part it is about as far as you can get from all the Vendors in the game (so I tried to add loads - even Fabrie the Super Mutnat was meant to be a vendor but I'm not sure if Super Mutants can be (there's no barter options for Creatures in the GECK).

 

Interesting that you like the skill books and want more. I do too so I'll make a seperate patch for those.

 

Glad you like the stories. I'll try and keep them all to that standard in future, the only downside being that this takes ages (why I often put it off till last).

I am always looking for more terminal entires to add. If you need some more info I have created an AWOP timeline post here:

http://www.thenexusforums.com/index.php?/topic/311925-awop-history-of-the-undergound/

It only covers The Underground complex at the moment so if you have any more questions feel free to ask on that page, this page, the AWOP page or even PM me if you like. Credits for any notes that get used.

 

Ammo is gonna take a huge dive in amount in the standard Low Loot patch (too many ways to list here).

 

M Weapons, like the skill books will have a separate patch for turing them on and off (with a few exceptions).

M Armors will be reshuffled in the main Low Loot patch which covers everything else.

 

M Stands for either Modified or at a push, Mystro, but it really stems from and old FO3 mod I was making where a guy called 'M' was air-dropping weapon crates around the Wastes to help deal mainly with all the zombies from Zombie Apocalypse.

There's a compatability patch for WMX and AWOP already:

http://www.newvegasnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=39708

 

As for comparisons between M Weapons and Uniques I must admit I have only found about 8 of the uniques in the time I have had to play so I have not had chace to compare them all in-game.

Most should be a compromise between the Unique and the Vanilla versions.

In some cases though the option to fire off more than one shot at a time (such as with the Gauss Rifle and Tesla Cannon) makes then superior to thier Uniques (probably - I 'aint actually found those).

 

Thanks again for the post.

Edited March 15, 2011 by djmystro

[FlankerDFR]

I'm probably atypical from many RPG/FO players. I've never felt game weapons (and armor) should be anything other than realistic simulations of their real world counterparts. That's all pretty much Fallout (pun intended!) from my professional background, and the realisation of just how deadly ballistic weapons are, and how they perform on live targets. I always play on normal difficulty, because any weapon or armor benefit I get should be available to the AI too. The idea of weapon/gameplay balance is laughable to me, and just an excuse for miserable enemy AI (of which there is far too much in FO as well as many other games). I'm pretty sure most other gamers do not feel likewise (which is cool........different strokes and all that). Anyway...............combine my attitudes on gaming weapons and armor with my tinkering prediliction (can you say hot rodded cars and motorcycles and GECK created weapon stat tweaks??) and I find AWOP a creative and enjoyable complement to the vanilla game and main quest storyline. Enemies too numerous or difficult? Not yet...........calls for a more tactical game play style and that's what I like. I'm running AWOP in conjucntion with MGE's rePopulated Wasteland mod and Xodarep777's Enhanced Enemy AI & Tactics mod. Great combination in my book; though there is only so much one can do with epically poor vanilla FNV AI.

 

Too much loot? Probably..............., but I solve that easily by not picking up most stuff (I'm not into crafting or player homes either........................although...............you've knocked out some very nice and stylish areas for anyone who does). My preference on defended friendly areas would only be for built in regular factional conflict between them and their hostile neighbors (otherwise they're just mildly interesting areas during the first walk through for me). Just the thing for a wandering freelancer to become embroiled in. If everyone stays on their side of the line.................what's the fun in that?

 

In the end....................despite any nit picks I may have with it; it's well crafted, provides much needed game re/play value to the vanilla plot, and I've had no real performance, nor esthetic issues with it on my current rig (hopefully soon to be upgraded/replaced!).

 

Where's my nades, damnit! :laugh:

[simplywayne90]

@FlankerDFR

I know your pain, you'd really enjoy nVamp since combat becomes absolutely unforgiving then, (Step out of cover/make too much noise and bam! dead! and pretty everything is lethal as hell)

 

Hey again DJ, I seem to have popped up on all your threads here at nexus, (I saw you recently joined the "darkside" of Fallout forums as well.)

 

I skimmed through the thread as everyone had lots to say. However I'm currently busy but I will come back later and post some ideas of mine.

[Antioche]

Absolutely ! Vendors are a MUST..

 

I find myself travelling far and wide to capitalize on the prospecting I do. It's always a blessing to see a laden pack-animal with it's entourage of wanderers looking to buy or sell!

 

Also, incredibly pleased to see I am not the only one who plays the game 'as if I had been Tron-ed' ! It cuts off certain avenues of gameplay, ( i.e.; usually responses to asinine comments I would NEVER make. )

 

...AND it gets me dead now and then as I run to the rescue of a group of lighting engineers working their way along the roads.... but what good is even having a 'zombie-survival-plan' if you never test to learn your limitations right?

 

Anyhow, after playing through abit more; Trying to build up the caps for the Goodsprings home!

 

The vendors don't have 5k in caps on them between there and Novac! ....and Frankie won't take trade !!

 

Love it so far; but I wish there were SOME overall block to the ammo I get. Used to be one for F3 ( CS low-ammo ) but it disappeared, and when I lost my copy of the game, I lost the ESP. ( it actually lowered the world-ammo-drops; including those found on mobs; down to a couple (1-3 or so) shells per-mob once you killed them, and no more than 10 or so in ANY ammo box ! )

 

Tried to find the author through nexus in an effort to build my ultimate F3 game. No dice. a post in Nexus about the matter yielded a bunch of people asking me why I would want such a thing...but no results. I would kill or die to HAVE to use the reloading bench to keep myself in ammo. ( if I was unwilling to buy it from Frankie or the like, I DO believe they should continue to have their supplies unfettered.)

 

In closing, here's a funny one... Frankie got me GOOD...

 

I had ONE mod on ONE weapon.. extended clips on a 9mm ( DO so love WMX! ) .. and you know when you are selling weapons, how if you have one "in use" ..it tends to suddenly 'pop-up' under your cursor, and you have to be cautious not to sell it? ... I was in a hurry. & must have left my 9mm on the counter during a transaction for about a half dozen of the firearms... He took it. Happily I might add..& I realized my mistake after I left.

 

I went back, explained to him that I had made an error, and pointed out my gun in his inventory stash.. he agreed.

 

I had made an error..

 

Haggling did no good; smoking a joint with him did a LITTLE good...so, I tossed him a spare 10MM, and grabbed MY gun back....but wait..what's this?

 

as I go to leave the shop, I "set my gun" in the holster ( slot 1 ) ..and..the clips are normal... I'm like; "Frankie...What the hell man?"

 

He just gives me this sheet-eating grin like he doesn't know WHAT I'm talking about... So, frustrated, I look over his cases, and there is MY gun still... This time, I outright BUY it ( 380+ caps, No trade.. ) figuring "he's being a smart ass, you've cleaned him outta caps and he's having some fun with ya.." ...and I'll be damned if he didn't slip MY clips outta the gun he hands me AGAIN slick as goose snot !!

 

With mine STILL in his inventory...

 

So, figuring this is the kind of conversation that can only end in a gunshot... I BOUGHT BACK every 9mm he had in inventory; until THAT one was the only one left; and then purchased MY gun back... ( 789+ caps ) ..then ..carefully placed each un-modded 9mm on the counter for him to tag and purchase-back... o...m....g...

 

I swear he and his guard were wiping tears of laughter from their eyes as I sulked out...was pretty smoky in there by then though..

 

( The short version is, it seems a modded gun is the LAST thing to be sold to you if it's in a sellers inventory; even if you 'specifically request it' as it were. odd game-glitch i'd think. )

 

 

( ~edit P.S. Gotten through the cig. factory, skydiving, Primm sewers ( all of it ) and only found 3 "M" class items, not bad, not bad at all. As long as they are compatible with WMX ( please! ) it's all good. I don't mind having a mil-spec weapon instead of vanilla until I find a "unique". you're spot-on, they ARE a mid-range between the two. ( Although, I must say, the M class Assault rifle I just found BLOWS away the standard one.. spread better maybe? ) Nicely done.

 

gods I love this game.

 

Good work, and GOOD hunting ~ Jack Burton

Edited March 16, 2011 by Antioche

[djmystro]

FlankerDFR :

"I've never felt game weapons (and armor) should be anything other than realistic simulations of their real world counterparts."

Personally I could not agree more. The more accurate the weapon damage the more I tend to like and use the gun. Personally I have never fired a wepaon in real life and have no urge to do so but I very much respect a game that makes the effort to make thier armory realistic (Jagged Alliance series, older Fallout games, a few of the X-Com clones etc...). I like to feel as though the weapons are accurately balanced so if the situation arose in real life where you had the choise between an Uzi and an MP7 you would make the correct choice (assuming abundant ammo for each).

My only explanaion for the Fallout vanilla damage would be that the weapons are all on the verge of breakdown but still this is a huge genaralisation to make (taking into account Vaults and such). I guess the armor couId be awesome but I don't see how all faces got bulletproof. I always play on very hard (FO3 & NV) and still find the vanilla game too easy.

I'll try and add somewhere like you suggested with opposing teams at each end both trying to breach the others territory. I'm not sure it would work in the existing locations (not big enough or may break a quest) but I'll see if I can come up with something else. Maybe involving a rogue NCR squad and the Legion.

 

simplywayne90 :

Cool, comments welcome anytime.

 

Antioche :

I'll double Frankie's vendor caps for the next update, he should have more. That should help a little with buying the house (and was near enough how I intended for that house to be brought).

For the ammo reduction I am removing it in three stages for the next Low Loot:

1: Locations: About 1/3 of ammo containers removed (mostly just the ones with the most ammo in/most powerful ammo types). Slight reduction in loose ammo boxes.

2: Containers: Ammo box spawns limited to vanilla/low options. Ammo lockers reduced to a max of 4 ammo types with the amounts for each type aprroximately halved. (Average random locker contents: 10x 9mm, 10x 10mm, 16x 5.56mm 25x ECP)

3: NPCs: General reduction in all non-vanilla enemies ammo.

 

I have never used any low ammo mods myself coz I like to stay just about on top of things (in terms of not running out of ammo but feeling like I always need more). Though at the moment AWOP is too easy in my opinioin, especially in terms of ammo. Despite that the Low Loot version is not for me as is is not part of my bigger picture for what I want the mod to play like. I am happy to release that for others though coz I certainly do not want to break the vanilla game for those who do not welcome it.

 

That's weird with the vendors selling modded weapons last, I had not spotted it myself. I will be wary of that in the future (though, like yourself I often sell these guns by accident, it's just I don't notice till I'm the other side of the map and all of a sudden I need that gun).

 

The M Weapons should continue on in the same vein untill you reach the Northern areas of the Underground (where every third or fourth NPC has one).

I like the Assault Rifle too, one of my favorites (especially with Book of Earche AWOP Patch, which makes it into a Vltor if I'm not mistaken). Almost useless in the northern Underground though, even with AP bullets....

Weapon spread was one of the first things I go to fix on all weapons but for the most part they are OK in New Vegas.

Edited March 16, 2011 by djmystro

[djmystro]

LOW LOOT Patches:

Three Low Loot options coming in the next hour or two.

General stuff (extra ammo, clutter, armor etc), Skill Books and/or M Weapons can now be turned on or off mid-game.

 

EDIT:

They are out now!

You can get them here:

http://www.newvegasnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=40950

Let me know what you think :)

Edited March 16, 2011 by djmystro

[northfield]

Absolutely loving the low loot versions!