Some Thoughts on Fair Play and Good Humored Disagreement

[grannywils]

As some of you may know, my politics tend toward the left. However as those of you who really know me also know, I believe myself to be a fair minded person, willing to always see both sides of any issue and to see reason.

 

Therefore I just wanted to take a moment and give credit to those Conservatives among us who also take the time to listen to both sides of an issue and whose points are well taken, at least by me (and I believe many others).

 

Nexus affords us with a unique opportunity to share our views on a variety of topics openly and honestly. And I for one especially enjoy the give and take with the opposition. I have friends on "my side", but I have also had the opportunity to make some wonderful friends on "the other side", with whom I enjoy wonderful repartee. I would not give that up for anything.

 

We can always "preach to the choir", but isn't it more beneficial for all of us to try to learn from one another and to hear what all of these knowledgeable and interesting people have to say (even sometimes when we feel they are totally misguided). Sometimes we just may learn something.

 

Just wondered what others might think....

 

 

[Aurielius]

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac177/Aurielius/a1204584-6c91-46cc-84fc-6c1e4faa3673.jpg

 

 

Conservative credit..must look this up in my forum manual...nope.... mine has that portion redacted. From the small but vocal conservative contingent...thanks

Edited March 16, 2011 by Aurielius

[grannywils]

Since Aurielius is one of my favorite Conservatives, it is surprising but good to see that smoking those Cubans at such an early age apparently did nothing to his brain cells. I happen to know that he still smokes cigars; and yet he is bright and erudite, and never comes to a debate unprepared. Like many of our Conservative friends his knowledge of history and in his case the Constitution, is refreshing and often enlightening to me.

 

Don't get me wrong, Liberals, I am often frustrated by the opposition, but enjoy the opportunity to hear their views, especially when expressed by those whose minds are as open and interested in what we have to say.

[HellsMaster]

I choose no side. No conservatives, no Liberals, no BNP. It all leads to hate. All 3 of those groups are " hiding" behind their logos and mottos to hide their true intent. Fame, power and money.

 

Cmon, i am human, it may be hard to believe for some folks, but really, there is no "good" side. Everything has a negative impacts on the surroundings and people. Being a Muslim here in UK is harder then one might think. I am French born, and yet i am considered a Barbarian because i went a full beard? Didnt Nord fold and Vikin back in the time of old has beards?

 

"Every man for himself and God for everyone" Is the motto that rules me currently. It goes against the Islamic "Community" thing but the Islamic community here is rotten to the core. I keep to myself.

 

 

 

- HellsMaster

 

 

[grannywils]

Interesting point of view HellsMaster. Totally disagree, especially with the part about it all leading to hate, but nonetheless, you are one of those folks I put on my list of people whose posts I always find fascinating to read. (See Crew Thread). You might note a common thread in most of my posts is that we are all human. That is why I believe that listening to all sides of any discussion is so important. It is my firm belief that it is our humanity that will join us in the long run, not our politics. So in spite of your take on it, I think somewhere down deep you probably agree with me. Thanks for your post, and for taking an interest.

[Vagrant0]

As some of you may know, my politics tend toward the left. However as those of you who really know me also know, I believe myself to be a fair minded person, willing to always see both sides of any issue and to see reason.

 

Therefore I just wanted to take a moment and give credit to those Conservatives among us who also take the time to listen to both sides of an issue and whose points are well taken, at least by me (and I believe many others).

 

Nexus affords us with a unique opportunity to share our views on a variety of topics openly and honestly. And I for one especially enjoy the give and take with the opposition. I have friends on "my side", but I have also had the opportunity to make some wonderful friends on "the other side", with whom I enjoy wonderful repartee. I would not give that up for anything.

 

We can always "preach to the choir", but isn't it more beneficial for all of us to try to learn from one another and to hear what all of these knowledgeable and interesting people have to say (even sometimes when we feel they are totally misguided). Sometimes we just may learn something.

 

Just wondered what others might think....

It is my opinion that a "good humored" disagreement cannot exist when there are those who take a hard-line, stubborn as sin, stance on an issue, and have a tendency to call other "like minded" hard-liners into every discussion to mob against anyone who suggests otherwise. It's not about conservative, it's not about liberal, it's that usually these people don't care themselves about what points are being made and instead want to force their own beliefs upon others. The only place where this sort of conversation is "debate" is on certain politically charged news programs. Or atleast that is how it often comes out.

 

The other part of it is that often what is being debated is not opinion, but fact that has been supported by objective evidence. At which point, the debate becomes embattled over something which has already been proven, but is just not accepted, and due to the obstinate nature of certain groups of people, gets even more bogged down in side arguments. If it were once or twice that didn't last, it wouldn't be a problem, but it happens so often that one might be tempted to think that this was being willfully employed simply to shut down all meaningful debate.

 

Debate on a forums where you don't have a time limit, where moderation only happens when things get out of hand, where most participating don't necessarily know what they're talking about becomes even more prone to this sort of thing. It is also prone to happen when people don't read the whole thread, and just the last few posts before coming in and adding their points of contention or jumping to the "rescue" of someone they think is being oppressed without looking to see what was the cause of that oppression. This is why it's so hard to have a even a friendly debate between open-minded persons, at any time someone can just jump in to state unfounded information, close-minded/archaic beliefs, get into a lengthy side-argument about the validity of that information or the logic of those beliefs, and then claim that they are being oppressed when others don't immediately accept their way of thinking. Then there are those people who are prone to jumping into debates, saying something they know is wrong, just to kill the debate.

 

Fair Play doesn't even have a chance to enter into things; people were never fair to start with.

 

 

So why have a debate section at all? Well, for one thing those sorts of topics needed their own place or else they would end up in the lounge or other sections of the site. Removing or closing down the debate section would not stop the debates, it would just mean that the debates that happened would be in many different places and often the wrong places. When the site was smaller, the debate section did not have the same problems it has now simply because there was some assumed requirement of maturity and background knowledge among debaters. There was also at that time a number of outspoken members who got their rocks off tearing apart and fact checking posts which were poorly founded, without feeling the need to interject their own opinion; arguing stupidity solely on the grounds of being wrong. But this lead to other problems, namely those people being seen as trolling, or promoting hostility within the community. So there is no easy solution.

[grannywils]

Wow. It had not been my intention to respond to every post made on this thread. However, Vagrant0, since I respect your opinion more highly than quite a few others on Nexus, I feel a need to at least have a go here.

 

A great deal of what you say in your post is absolutely true. And I guess what I was attempting to point out was that it does not need to be so, and that there are a number of us from all points of view who are quite capable of fair minded and good humored discussion. In fact not only capable but desirous of same. You are certainly correct in pointing out that there are others among us (also from all sides) who have a tendency to have more interest in causing discord or pushing an agenda regardless of the real topic or subject at hand.

 

I guess my thread was intended to offer my thanks and respect to all of those who have the good sense and decency to utilize this forum in the manner in which it was intended. The rowdy, ignorant, opinionated lot to which you refer, probably need to be ignored more than they are, by all of us. Maybe then they will either learn some manners or just shut up and go away. Maybe not too likely, but I can always dream. In the meantime, I will continue to watch for posts from people like you and others that I have mentioned in the Crew thread.

 

Thanks for your post.

 

 

[Maigrets]

As far as politics go it's not a subject I have any interest in debating or even discussing in passing, but that's me. My political leanings are best kept to myself.

 

With respect to the title and sentiment of this thread and opening topic I agree 98% with Vagrant0, and in fact many of his opinions on various other subjects. I read the Debates and Lounge sections here most days and enjoy reading what people have to say, in most cases, but no longer have any desire to take part.

 

@ grannywils

 

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but what you hope for in respectful, fair and good humoured discussion is unlikely to happen for this reason. To quote you:

 

You are certainly correct in pointing out that there are others among us (also from all sides) who have a tendency to have more interest in causing discord or pushing an agenda regardless of the real topic or subject at hand.

 

and this,

 

The rowdy, ignorant, opinionated lot to which you refer, probably need to be ignored more than they are, by all of us. Maybe then they will either learn some manners or just shut up and go away. Maybe not too likely, but I can always dream.

 

Ignoring them won't make them go away. They just go quiet for a time until people forget, then resurface to continue the same behaviour. Daily, (or nearly so), reading of the debates section is proof enough to me.

 

I myself have been guilty of getting angry and losing my cool when certain people enter a discussion they have no intention of being part of except to disrupt it, cause discord and eventual closure of the thread. It's not so easy to ignore them. They will never go away because they are cunning enough to stay just below the level of breaking the rules, and in some cases I believe they get some twisted satisfaction from causing trouble. This doesn't make them smart, no matter that they seem to think it does.

 

For myself, I prefer to stay away altogether and not comment at all to save myself and others the aggravation. :pinch: However, sometimes it is tempting to take part in a civilized debate, if only it would stay that way.

 

@ Anyone else reading this...

Make no mistake I have no issue with people disagreeing with what I may have to say, but I do have a right to a certain amount of freedom of thought and expression as much as anyone else here, according to the forum rules, and in a civilized manner. The thing I have issue with is when some people spoil things for everyone else by trying to belittle others, steer the topic in a direction they prefer, and /or press the issue by dictating what can be discussed in a topic they have no other interest in.

 

This unfortunately is human nature and it's not going to change any time soon, no matter how much we would like it to. Anonymity on the Net makes it easier for bullies and disruptive influences to proliferate without consequence.

[ginnyfizz]

Grannywils, the very fact that you started this topic illustrates why you are on my friends list. We may be politically poles apart, but actually not so very different, for we both come to the conclusions we do out of our genuine concerns. You certainly have the generosity not to confuse "politically correct" with "absolutely correct and if you disagree you are a dangerous bigot who should be shut up."

 

Debates, I am afraid, will always get heated and sometimes schoolboyish, even in the Houses of Congress and Parliament. Try campaigning for the Conservative party in the part of the UK where I live and you will soon find out the meaning of heat (you might well get very warm running away from the flying missiles). No, I am not joking.

 

But this guy was...

 

Nancy, Lady Astor "If you were my husband I'd give you arsenic..."

Churchill, Winston S "Madam, if I were your husband, I'd drink it"

 

See what I mean?

[crimsonedge11]

From my perspective, most on this site are very left wing. Basically the only thing I can agree on with most of you here, is that we agree to disagree on too many things. Although there is some common ground on a few things. I didn't see too many people defending the game manufacturers and their draconian EULA agreements, or DRMs, and their utter disregard for consumer rights.

 

People often run into problems when you try to convince another person to change their mind. I will admit, I have been guilty of doing this sometimes. Sometimes I feel such a strong difference in opinion that from my perspective the other side just seems crazy, or naive and my posts will often reflect that. And before I go into a debate, I have already made up my mind about the topic, and there is little anyone can say to change it. And I think that holds true for most people already having their minds made up before they even enter the debate.