Why not use NVSE?

[Fee510]

In several of my mods, I run a script to check if NVSE is running. If it's not, I may use alternate code or just make that feature unavailable while making the rest of the mod usable. I know I'm not the only one to do this, but I also know that many modders will avoid using NVSE if possible.

 

My question is: Who are we accommodating by doing this? Who doesn't run NVSE?

 

I've come up with four groups of people that this may pertain to:

 

1) Everyone after a FNV update, before NVSE is updated.

 

2) People who can run NVSE, but choose not to because they think it slows their system or whatever reason.

 

3) People who can't figure out how install it or get it to run, perhaps a language barrier.

 

4) Pirates. They can't run stream, thus can't run NVSE.

 

Now accommodating group 1, in my opinion, is not a huge deal. The NVSE team has been great at getting up a patch in 1-2 days. I don't really see the point in going out the way to ensure my mod can be used a couple of extra days out of the year.

 

Group 2 made a choice not to use NVSE. They have the know-how to use it, they may even use it occasionally. Thus if they want to use a mod, they can and therefore I don't see the point in accommodating.

 

If people in group 3 can't figure out how to install NVSE, they probably won't read the mod description to begin with, so why accommodate?

 

I don't think I'm alone in this... I'm not accommodating pirates. Go buy the game.

 

Now, is there something I missed? Are there people who run a certain OS who can't use NVSE? Should we accommodate non-NVSE users?

[rickerhk]

I voted no, but really it all boils down to 'who are you modding for?'. I mod for myself and hopefully it will be usable and enjoyable for many people. If I have to go to great lengths for universal compatability that really detracts from the fun of it for me. I am trying to do as much scripting as possible using vanilla, but the moment there is something that I really want to do, that will require NVSE, that's it - the mod will require NVSE to work - period.

[bben46]

Not every mod actually requires NVSE to work. Using It when it is not necessary locks out some people. However, if there are some things that cannot be done without using NVSE to make your mod, then by all means use it.

[davidlallen]

As a modder, I have intentionally avoided using nvse. I want to stay away from anything which makes it harder for Joe Gamer to get my mod running. So far I have found getting any non-trivial script working to be incredibly frustrating, even without introducing nvse. I have seen threads of people trying to debug nvse specific problems and this scares me off further. Please develop your mod with nvse if you want; but I probably won't install it, and I don't plan to use nvse in my own modding.

[Fee510]

Using It when it is not necessary locks out some people.

Who? Who are we locking out? This is the whole point of the post.

 

Please develop your mod with nvse if you want; but I probably won't install it,

So you won't use a mod on the sole basis that it runs on NVSE? Why?

[davidlallen]

Because I haven't installed NVSE. Why haven't I installed it? Because I don't need it; I can develop mods without it, and I have found enough mods to play that don't require NVSE. If it prevents me from playing the game, ever, then it's just in the way.

 

This particular forum is probably the wrong place to ask since most active posters are already modders and have an opinion about NVSE. But I wonder how many mod *players* also avoid mods which require installing some other tool, which may or may not introduce problems of its own.

[Fonger]

my 3 favorite mods already require Script extender

 

so its not an issue.

 

BTW this is true for Blivo and FO3 too.

 

 

make your mod the way you like it

 

because no matter what you do

 

the trolls will find it.

 

(not referring to any post in this thread)

Edited March 17, 2011 by Fonger

[Fee510]

BTW this is true for Blivo and FO3 too.

 

If my memory serves me right, I think there is a version of Oblivion that cannot run OBSE, maybe the direct drive version.... In that case, I completely understand taking extra steps to ensure your mod can work without OBSE.

[Fonger]

If my memory serves me right, I think there is a version of Oblivion that cannot run OBSE, maybe the direct drive version...

Yes the D2D and some of the European versions can't use OBSE

 

but any legal version of Vegas can

[Fee510]

but any legal version of Vegas can (run NVSE)

 

That's my point. Should we as modders go out of our way to accommodate people like DavidlAllen (no offense David, love your work and your comments on the forums) who have the capabilities and knowhow to run NVSE, but make the choice not to use it. Now David had said that he "doesn't need it." I can almost see where you are coming from in that a lot of mods that require NVSE are "over the top" and add stuff that is so new to the game that it can be seen as unbalanced (ex: Project New Vegas, Advanced J3X Motorcycle, Advanced Recon, etc.).

 

But there are other mods that need NVSE which only improve things in the base game. I'll use one of my mods as an example: Collectible Canteens requires NVSE because it includes features like the canteens changing weights as you use them. Since you can fill the canteens (21 of them in v2.0) with almost anything (not un-realistic) there are over 800 possible canteens. For me to use non-NVSE code, my scripts would easily need to be 10,000+ lines of code in a single script, which isn't possible. NVSE allows me to simplify the code by using loops and formlists. Yes, its possible to have a similar canteen mod that does not require NVSE, such exist. But they can't make it so their canteens can be filled with whiskey, beer, etc. and change weights simply because there is a cap on script length.

 

To me, when you say "I don't need it," I read that as "I choose limited mods." There are so many good mods out there that require NVSE and aren't unbalanced. Another good example would be mods that add new ammo types. Now it is completely possible for these mods not to use NVSE, most don't. But problems occur if you don't: Conflicts with other mods if you add the ammo to formlists in GECK or the default ammo being replaced if you use the command AddFormToFormList. By using a simple NVSE command, ListAddForm instead of AddFormToFormList, you can eliminate all those problems.

 

If you can run NVSE but choose not to, why limit your mods?

 

Edit: I'm not trying to put a negative spin on people who choose not to use NVSE. I'm trying to get a better understanding as to where you are coming from so that I, and other modders, can better choose how to tailor to the needs of non-nvse users.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Fee510