Loli

[evilneko]

I base my assertion on the actual use of the term, which has far more bearing on its meaning than origin (if you want to go the route of origin being more important than use, then "black person" should not be offensive to anyone because its origin is simply a mispronunciation of negro)."Loli" is used mainly as a reference to a character's age. The character need not be sexualized at all, if she's under thirteen or so, she's a loli. Going by usage, even the more explicit terms "lolicon" and "shotacon" have broadened from being terms for the actual people who get off on ero-loli/shota stuff, to actually including the material itself. This use is less common but I would prefer it, since it makes separating the sexual subset easy.

 

Loli can also refer simply to how a character is drawn. For example, here's vocaloid Kagamine Rin as a loli. (as determined by head:body proportion. It was actually kinda hard finding a loli-Rin that was not a chibi or on a NSFW site or site with NSFW ads) By comparison this is normal Rin.

 

Loli can even refer to how a character is treated or acts in a work. Fuko (Clannad) is usually labeled as loli despite being canonically a high school freshman mainly because of the way she acts.

 

I'm not saying that all depictions of loli are non-sexual. I'm saying that it is a much broader term than you're making it out to be.

 

You imply that "artistic" depictions of pedophelia, rape and sexual abuse are acceptable because those who enjoy such things will be busy with the media and not out perpetuating these actions?

 

I'm not implying that at all. That's as stupid as saying, "video games save lives because murderers would be at home playing Counter Strike instead of out killing people," or "Pornagraphy causes rape," or "Video games cause violence," or "lolicon cartoons cause child rape." These are all equally fallacious.

 

Edit: Yes, let's take a look at Children's Beauty Pageants, shall we? Something much more harmful to kids than any amount of lolicon manga.

[DeadMansFist849]

Um, as far as I know, I didn't see anybody endorsing child beauty pageants. Those do tend to promote a very unhealthy self-image and perfectionism.

[Fatalmasterpiece]

I think pangeants are another topic. Let's keep on this topic and in the realm of loli media and erotic art depicting implied minors.

 

Ill reply more when I get home later.

[Sync182]

Edit: Yes, let's take a look at Children's Beauty Pageants, shall we? Something much more harmful to kids than any amount of lolicon manga.

 

Why not look at them (in another topic)? They can fall into the broad category of "sexualising children". Looking at how some parents treat their kids in the lead-up to pageants, it can fall into the other category of "child abuse". Girls aged 6-8 shold not, IMO, be having eyebrows plucked, getting extensive & heavy makeup applied, or getting hairstyles that make their teenaged sisters envious.

 

As for the term "loli" and how it relates...

 

In its simple form, "Loli" (or even "Lolita") is harmless. But it invites, by its very nature, a form of behaviour that is inherently repulsive.

[WizardOfAtlantis]

I think there are a lot of problems when someone tries to parallel Japanese culture to Western culture. This is a good example.

 

At the risk of making broad, sweeping remarks, let me start off by saying I'm going to be making broad sweeping remarks.

 

I think most people severely underestimate how intimidated a very large portion of Japanese men/boys are in regards to women. Example. I was watching a documentary on Japanese girls dancing hip-hop together in a club that they'd set up, shaking their money-makers and all what have you. Whoo-boy, what a sight.http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/thumbsup.gif And you know what? There wasn't a single Japanese man in the whole club. The girls were even remarking upon it themselves, and why, did they say, were there no Japanese guys watching them dance all sexy and hot? Because they were too intimidated to come and watch them.

 

Other examples? Ever seen actual street footage of the young girls that offer their dating services to high-school and older men? As paid girlfriends on a dinner date for a night? It's hilarious. You should see how many guys avert their eyes with embarrassed looks and run away. ha!

 

So, it's only natural that the image of a young, inexperienced girl--and I'll leave it at that, because most of them as they are depicted, or as they are in real life, are not pre-pubescent, nowhere close, and have way too many curves to be near 12 years old--is very attractive sexually. She isn't intimidating.

 

The whole (broad sweeping, etc etc) female scene is youngified, childified, for exactly these reasons. They don't want *little girls*...they want curvy girls that aren't threatening and it's as simple as that.

[Fatalmasterpiece]

Wizard, it's too bad I don't find Japanese women generally attractive, because after a few drinks I will walk up to the hottest super model you've seen and starting being friendly. I'de own that place.

 

I wonder if that is why rape porn is so popular over there.

[evilneko]

Wizard, part of what you've hit on is the extreme importance the Japanese place on cuteness. Kawaii is more than just skin-deep, and it's why Megumi Hayashibara, Aki Toyosaki and other seiyuu are so popular.

 

 

I wonder if that is why rape porn is so popular over there.

 

Maybe, but part of it is also that Japan is still a very sexist (not to mention xenophobic) country.

[marharth]

Wizard, part of what you've hit on is the extreme importance the Japanese place on cuteness. Kawaii is more than just skin-deep, and it's why Megumi Hayashibara, Aki Toyosaki and other seiyuu are so popular.

 

 

I wonder if that is why rape porn is so popular over there.

 

Maybe, but part of it is also that Japan is still a very sexist (not to mention xenophobic) country.

Xenophobic yes, they are not sexist though...

[DeadMansFist849]

There are sexist elements, as there are everywhere. Misogynistic porn, promotion of the "weddings and babies" ideal to little girls, well, those are symptoms of the problem of women being viewed as worth less than men in a particular culture. Most, if not all, cultures have this problem, to a lesser or greater extent. A lot of Western men (and women too) have it drummed into their heads that women are evil harridans who are desperate for babies.

 

As for the "cute and inexperienced" appeal: we do have a paralell, but she usually appears in romance novels and chick flicks, promoted to Western women as what to be, not necessarily to Western men as what to look for. That's the ingenue, the damsel in distress, the princess. Oh, and regarding my own thoughts on cute, naive characters? Well, I suppose those would account for a lot of straight-out-of-the-vault Fallout 3 characters, actually, if you're a roleplayer and your character is believable--you start out as 19-year-old with no clue about the Wasteland!

[WizardOfAtlantis]

Wizard, it's too bad I don't find Japanese women generally attractive, because after a few drinks I will walk up to the hottest super model you've seen and starting being friendly. I'de own that place.

Yes, and you might very well have success at it, too. http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/thumbsup.gif

 

Balancing it out, though, is a common tendency among the girls to like very effeminate/ambiguous, non-threatening men...http://www.thenexusforums.com/public/style_emoticons/dark/confused.gif The guys that work in the host clubs/bars are right out of '70's Bowie-ish transgenderism and the early '80's poofy-hair glam rock scene, by the look of them. not my thing at all, really, but there you go.

 

There's a lot of sexual intimidation in Japan...and they also have a dramatic and plummeting birth rate, one that might very well cause (without immigration or next generation robots) a great national crisis in the next few generations.

 

 

I worry for Japan. They're right to put a lot of emphasis on making babies. They need them.