grannywils Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Well, I must admit Harbringe, what you had to say was intriguing to say the least. I especially loved the last sentence!!! However, I really do not feel I am riding shotgun for Aurielius, who is quite capable of taking care of himself. I was simply expressing my own opinion with respect to what he had said in response to your post. Just for the record, I'm not trying to convert anyone. I have enough trouble keeping myself in line, thank you very much. Now, to get back to your last post... It is fascinating, I will grant you that. But I'm not sure that I totally comprehend all of it. I don't believe that this is due to any lack of intellect on my part, although perhaps I am wrong. But it sort of rambles a bit, and admittedly there are some facts you quote with which I am unfamiliar. Nonetheless, I don't see where you have ever actually said that war was a crime. You did differentiate quite nicely between legal and legitimate, and I do get that. But are you saying that in any of those civilizations there were actual laws against going to war? I did get somewhat caught up in the verbage, and never actually saw where you said that. I am overwhelmed with your extensive knowledge of the subject and bow to you on that front. But still have not found the answer I am looking for. Once again I repeat, I am totally opposed to war. However, I am not convinced that it is illegal, and I do believe that there have been instances where it has been necessary (very unfortunately). I would much prefer to personally be more like Ghandi and refuse to believe that war is ever necessary. I am working towards that goal. However that is not the subject of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurielius Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 (edited) HarbringeI am amused at your allusion to Clauswitz, though after through search found little to support your contention, a more accurate quote from Clauswitz would be: "WAR IS ONLY A CONTINUATION OF STATE POLICY BY OTHER MEANS.We see, therefore, that War is not merely a political act, but also a real political instrument, a continuation of political commerce, a carrying out of the same by other means. All beyond this which is strictly peculiar to War relates merely to the peculiar nature of the means which it uses. That the tendencies and views of policy shall not be incompatible with these means, the Art of War in general and the Commander in each particular case may demand, and this claim is truly not a trifling one. But however powerfully this may react on political views in particular cases, still it must always be regarded as only a modification of them; for the political view is the object, War is the means, and the means must always include the object in our conception. If, in the next place, we keep once more to the pure conception of War, then we must say that the political object properly lies out of its province, for if War is an act of violence to compel the enemy to fulfill our will, then in every case all depends on our overthrowing the enemy, that is, disarming him, and on that alone. This object, developed from abstract conceptions, but which is also the one aimed at in a great many cases in reality, we shall, in the first place, examine in this reality." Clauswitz sees war as an act of violence which it certainly is but violence does not equate to barbarism. Barbarism is a social collapse or a decent from civilization. One might argue that war is one of man's most consistent achievements, more advances in civilization have been made through the search for advantages in warfare. Warfare is the crucible that evolves technology more than any other avenue. It should also be said that war is something to be avoided if at all possible, those that have seen the face of war, love peace more than most, because we know the full extent and horror of it. The only author that shares your contention would be: "Matters have reached such a pitch that today mankind is faced with two alternatives: it may perish in barbarism, or it may find salvation in socialism. As the outcome of the Great War it is impossible for the capitalist classes to find any issue from their difficulties while they maintain class rule...Socialism is inevitable, not merely because proletarians are no longer willing to live under the conditions imposed by the capitalist class, but further because, if the proletariat fails to fulfill its duties as a class, if it fails to realize socialism, we shall crash down together to a common doom." (Rosa Luxemburg, Speech to the Founding Congress of the KPD) Direct from the International Communist Current, a failed and discredited philosophy, with this orientation this is not a debate that you are presenting but a polemic. As a side note it is demeaning to assume that Grannywils does not have a mind of her own , we disagree on politics more than agree. I need no one to ride shotgun for me. Your base assumption is that if one was bright enough they would see the obvious clarity of your wisdom, pride precedes the fall. I clearly understand the point you are attempting to make but simply disagree with it. Edited April 6, 2011 by Aurielius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbringe Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 @ Granny As for the shotgun thing that was just a bit of levity as the imagery of it made me laugh ,wasn't implying you were in cahoots or that he needed it ,why I described it as bewildered to find yourself there ,as in an unexpected turn of events ,as for converting him figured well hey out in left field ,ya got him there why not.Me bad sorry can't help myself. Yes your right does ramble on ,tried to avoid that ,but War as a concept its a big one ,hard to keep in the box as a definition can spill out in so many ways ,wants to do its own thing unruly creature that it is.Try to keep it simple use basic questions and imagery. War is a Crime (in original post ,what triggered all this ,maybe you missed) .Basic question why a crime. Answer , basic act is to take life , to kill another human being ,conventions ,doctrines , laws , etc irrelevant to this basic act, only relevant to what and how one will come to accept such a thing. 10,000 BCE man engaged in war smashes in enemy's skull with his club ,brutal and barbaric act.1500 CE Japanese Samurai artfully dismembers enemy killing him , done with style and grace , changes nothing still brutal and barbaric.2007 CE American sniper mountains of Afghanistan blows the brains out the back of Taliban fighter , quick and efficient ,still brutal and barbaric, nothing changes.This is the basis as to why war is a crime.End result in all cases death .Again conventions , doctrines , laws ,etc do not alter this basic act , only the practices and methodologies by which we will carry it out or be accepting of it. Now use basic imagery and turn it into an object ,make it into ball , baseball if you wish doesn't matter and set it on your table. War is a Crime second question what do you do about it .For this use a tried and true construct , a box ,Used many times before Ark of the Covenant something in a box ,Pandora's box again something in a box even the don't let the Genie out of the bottle similar concept .This very old concept so why put in box , simple its dangerous .So take your ball and put it in the box. Final question: what is the box.The box is those very laws , conventions , doctrines etc that you put war in ,defines the box but only the box and if you want to argue legal or illegal ,fine go ahead paste another label on the box ,doesn't change whats in the box ,that's war in there remember , its far older than any label you put on it and it don't care what you call it, label it or define it as , its got its own rules.What the box does is give us a framework either to keep it in or let it out.Problem is people look at the labeling and use it to define war or let someone else do it for them and they come to believe that's whats in the box.If they looked in the box they would see something akin to woe , suffering , pain , agony , hate , rape , murder ,death all mixed together and if they looked at it they may ask Ok do we really need to let it out but that never happens cause their looking at the labeling. Could go on but that would be rambling , damn war is such a big concept , though did notice in original post only attributed this understanding to empires and that's not the case ,theological , legalistic, philosophical , political and great leaders of empires and nations have all contributed to it ,oops fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbringe Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 @ Aurielis That quote you have in capital letters would be from On War I believe and is his most famous , yes I am familiar with it and actually agree with it .His book On War was required reading when I was studying Political Science 25 years ago .This theme was further extrapolated upon by Hans J Morgenthau in is book Politics Among Nations "The Struggle for Power and Peace" both good books if your to understand how war is an extension of state policy , but both those books focus was on war as a tool towards state policy and paid brief attention to war in and of itself ,they in large part put aside those questions of is it a crime or is it evil as they were questions for another book. As for my referring to Clausewitz this too was part of those studies and yes can not recall its title (it was 25 years ago) but remember "mostly" the chapters and mind you his analysis of the inherent criminality of war was a two edged sword , cut both ways ,smash a man's head in, criminal , exercise unnecessary force causing more death or suffering than needed, criminal , no legitimate reason to go to war , criminal (This one particularly got him into trouble) , even the failure to act when war needed , criminal .Think that one from On War something to do with forces at the ready , failure to act , crime against your country.Point is he understood the business (War) he was in and was not an apologist.Another book who's title I can recall is the Ghosts of Clausewitz (not a book I studied at University) in which they deal with the aproposism's in his take on the criminality of war ,again cutting both ways , gives no apologies.If you know Clausewitz then you should recognize these thoughts patterns and I do believe you have read On War as I have recognized you alluding to or referencing his idea's in other threads. At this point have to stop as my previous post was started before you posted but ended up after as I took a break to watch a movie and it may with this help in understanding what I was saying .Basically I'm looking at those things such as statecraft or laws , conventions , etc as the box in which war is put , you are looking more at war ,well pretty much with a focus as an extension of statecraft .Two different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grannywils Posted April 6, 2011 Share Posted April 6, 2011 Ok, Harbringe, now you've got me. Because what you have said is the basic truth. Whether or not it is legal, "war is Hell", and as I have said many times before I am totally opposed to it. By doing that whole box thing you made me realize that I was getting too caught up in the reasoning, etc. I still do understand why we have gone to wars in the past. Even then I wished other ways could have been found to deal with the issues. I am truly a "Ghandi" at heart, although could never live up to such a great personage. Aurielius is a man who has been to war and understands why they are fought and what happens when they are left to those who do not understand the tactics and how to properly fight them. I admire him for his strength of character and his wisdom in this area. And I know him to be a man of honor and character who believes totally in his stand. And I stand behind him and admire him for that belief. But I just cannot abide wars and killing others in order to stop them from killing others, etc., etc. We just do not have that right. None of us do. Would that we were smart enough to come up with an alternative... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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