Why wasn't Torygg (or Istlod?) consulted regarding the re-taking of Markarth?

[kimmera]

According to the lore, it seems like Ulfric made a deal with Igmund, new jarl of Markarth and later with the Imperial Legion who showed up to relieve them.

 

There is talk about this meaning that the Empire had agreed to this (despite the Imperial Captain having no such authority to make such deals), but what of the High King? Shouldn't he have been consulted on a matter involving a foreign treaty?

 

And was it Torygg on the throne at the time or was it still Istlod? It is unclear exactly when and how Istlod died.....

[CaptainPatch]

I'm pretty sure it was Torygg's father, Istlod, still on the throne at that time. In-game, Torygg had only recently ascended to the throne. The civil war started almost immediately after Torygg's death in 4E 201. The Markarth Incident transpired in 4E 176.

 

The Jarl in charge of the Reach when the Reachmen rebelled was Hrolfdir, who was killed during the revolt, making Igmund the ascending heir apparent. So, because of the Reachmen's successful rebellion, Igmund was essentially a jarl without a hold.

 

It is an excellent question: Why didn't Istlod send help to suppress the Reachmen's rebellion? Hrolfdir, as a legitimate vassal of the High King, had every right to expect and demand that the High King support the defense of a beleaguered Skyrim hold.

 

Whatever Istlod's reason for NOT dispatching military support -- "All available soldiers were sent off to Cyrodiil. We are forced to operate with just a skeleton force until they return" perhaps? -- Igmund didn't even bother to appeal to the High King. And as how the High King had ignored Hrolfdir's need, he didn't feel bound to confirm any deals with the High King first. (Fealty goes in both directions, or it doesn't go at all.)

[kimmera]

We don't really have a clear timeline though, so we don't know if Igmund even sent word to Solitude. Even if there were no Imperial troops available though, wouldn't Ulfric be under the command of the High King? And if Istlod ruled that Markarth was undeserving of aid, was Ulfric effectively disobeying that ruling? Conversely, wasn't Ulfric not just refusing the Empire's WGC but also Istlod, who had accepted it too?

 

Do we know any details of Istlod's death? Maybe he was just too old to make decisions? Or maybe Ulfric fast talked his deal before word got back from Solitude? No one talks ill of Istlod, not even Ulfric. One would think that a High King denying help to Markarth would have been at least as noteworthy as the WGC itself....

[CaptainPatch]

What we do know is that Ulfric's father was still alive at the time. And that there is no mention that his father, as jarl of Eastmarch, dispatched Eastmarch guardsmen to the Reach. Rather, Ulfric's forces are identified as "Stormcloak" militia, which is not the designated military force of any province. Literally, a band of fighters, forming a group to carry out some military action, either for defense (usually) or offense (rarely). Not much different than a large mercenary company, really, since they didn't have an official endorsement from any governmental unit.

 

Technically, Ulfric was in fact defying the entire chain of authority, from Emperor, to High King, to jarl. (Who, in the case of Igmund, should have known he was violating the laws of the Empire, and should have been tried for treason for willfully breaching an Imperial treaty, thereby putting the entire Empire at risk.)

[Elimc]

Ulfric might have received permission from the High King, and he did make a deal with the Imperial sent to reclaim the city. He just shouldn't have trusted the Empire to put freedom of religion very high on it's priority list.

[kimmera]

Ulfric might have received permission from the High King, and he did make a deal with the Imperial sent to reclaim the city. He just shouldn't have trusted the Empire to put freedom of religion very high on it's priority list.

 

An Imperial Captain does not represent the Empire to that level, especially in a hostage situation. It would be like a bank robber demanding an end to Obamacare and the police captain agreeing to that demand in order to end the hostage situation, then the robber being shocked or crying foul when the deal isn't honored.

 

If the High King gave permission, then why wouldn't Ulfric use that fact politically? That would have been of major relevance to the civil war and would have strengthened Ulfric's position considerably.

[fraquar]

Actually, when you look at it Ulfric (militia) was answering to a Jarl (Igmund), and likely at his father's (Jarl of Windhelm - who was still alive) request. Jarl's do help other Jarls, even when the Empire doesn't or is too slow to act.

[kimmera]

Actually, when you look at it Ulfric (militia) was answering to a Jarl (Igmund), and likely at his father's (Jarl of Windhelm - who was still alive) request. Jarl's do help other Jarls, even when the Empire doesn't or is too slow to act.

 

But my point is that Ulfric was asking Igmund to ignore the treaty. If he was answering Igmund's request at his father's insistence then does this mean the conditions were dictated by Ulfric's father? There is no evidence of that. Or was Ulfric placing conditions on the help despite his father telling him to help Igmund?

 

Just as with the High King not being consulted, neither of those scenarios makes sense. It seems much more likely that Ulfric responded to Igmund's request on his own.

[CaptainPatch]

Actually, when you look at it Ulfric (militia) was answering to a Jarl (Igmund), and likely at his father's (Jarl of Windhelm - who was still alive) request. Jarl's do help other Jarls, even when the Empire doesn't or is too slow to act.

What a stretch. If it had been the jarl of Eastmarch sending aid to the jarl of the Reach, then Ulfric's force would have been labeled "Eastmarch Stormcloak militia" to distinguish them from Eastmarch guardsmen. They weren't. Ulfric was a big boy by then. He had even been old enough to go off and fight for the Empire in Cyrodiil. When he got back, he apparently/obviously gathered a military force together under his own banner, that of the Stormcloaks. NOT Eastmarch militia; not any hold's militia. (And probably labeled "militia" so they wouldn't be confused with bandits -- which they behaved like after having captured Markarth from the Reachmen/Forsworn.)

[Lachdonin]

I think it's worth pointing out that Ulfric had to raise a militia army expressly for the purpose of reclaiming Markarth. The Holds don't maintain standing armies, and as such Istold wouldn't really have had much to send to Markarth. We do know, however, that word was sent to the Imperial City, which was likely Istold's doing.

 

Ulfric used his popularity, and the rather unanimous dehumanisation of the Reachement across Skyrim, to draw recruits from across the provinces, not just from his own Hold (as Istold would have been inclined to. Jarls recruiting from other Jarls is a no-no). In fact, if it weren't for those facts, Ulfric probably wouldn't have been able to do it. If the locals of White Run had thrown out Balgruf, and Harrald Law Giver tried to build an army to go get him back his Hold, it probably wouldn't have gone anywhere.