Update on NMM version 0.60 and FAQ

[geknight]

In response to post #29341534.

KunoMochi wrote:

I just want to note that SYMLINKs are 0KB in size probably because they are just a short one line code for redirections from one memory address to another. This doesn't necessarily make them "bad", just a whole lot more efficient than legacy shortcut links. Whether it is good to use or not is up for debate; I just wanted to clarify why they appear to be 0KB in size. :)

 

Also, creating a profile system without SYMLINKs would probably be a lot more taxing for SSDs as it would mean having to uninstall and reinstall large amounts of data, not to mention a lot more time consuming for all. Personally, I do see the potential benefits of using SYMLINKs in the long run.

Years ago when Microsoft was putting in the registry and the documents folder etc, symlinks were IMPLEMENTED as an invisible way for the operating system to divide up user and program content into separate areas without really doing much at all. More than anything else these changes were made to prevent casual users from rolling functional copies of installed software onto backup and then putting it onto another machine. In short one of the main purposes of the registry itself and these symlinks is COPY PROTECTION. It was largely successful at this, though those of us with more expertise could easily find data and savegame files in their true location and do what we needed to with them. Microsoft content providers loved the new format and quickly fell into line with the rest of us and changed their installs to follow the new system.

EDIT: replaced 'invented' with 'implemented' above. I'll stand by my reason for their useage as this has been discussed quite freely over the years.

Now, .60 wants to use these links to reduce the bulk data moving chores of swapping from one style game to another, which is actually a pretty cool idea. But using these links requires keeping track of exact file data. Any boo boos will leave artifacts all over the place which is what I hear happened with many of the blown conversions.


When I was rebuilding after the conversion, I noticed that a minor change I had made into a player home mod I was looking at had been overwritten.... nothing major, just a new location edit to make it a player home for AFT and new music that I liked better. I had NOT changed the zip file in the install folder like I usually do, so the conversion overwrote my changes with the old file. No problem, 5 minutes in the editor and it was fixed, and this time I changed the archived copy in the mod folder so It would be a permanent switch. Fine so far, but when I went to DELETE the mod a few days later - as it was simply a trial - NMM balked on the delete. I still can't delete this mod. The original file HAD BEEN RE-WRITTEN and that seems to have tripped over the symlink type bookkeeping. Now this is WONDERFUL for copy protection and slowing hackers down, but I'm modding a game here. This means that every time I use the CK I can't write out over the old file in the Data folder or drop in a different file or it's gonna make .60 unhappy.

Apart from the performance hit this is NOT something I want to have to deal with while modding. And don't knock SSDs I've got a 2 year old 1,0 SSD raid on my machine and it's worked flawlessly. 4 Toshiba 512Gs for 1 T total space. people who have had SSD trouble generally plug a cheap 128 into the minislot and let the OS beat it to death. try a different approach with the newer better quality SSDs. You will LOVE the difference :) Edited October 9, 2015 by geknight

[KunoMochi]

The problem with the notion that SYMLINKs (and hard links) are invented by Microsoft only to be used for Copyright Protection is that SYMLINKs had been around for decades before Microsoft had ever implemented SYMLINKs in Windows, with use seen primarily in UNIX systems.

 

As of today, just about every OS you can think of uses SYMLINKs, including open source projects like GNU/Linux and FreeBSD, wherever NTFS-based storage systems are used.

 

Granted, there may be some limitations to using SYMLINKs but it isn't primarily used for copyright protection nor for deterring hackers; it was created as a means of efficiency and convenience.

 

:Edit:

 

Amendment duly noted. :smile:

Edited October 9, 2015 by KunoMochi

[Kraggy]

 

In response to post #29341534.

More than anything else these changes were made to prevent casual users from rolling functional copies of installed software onto backup and then putting it onto another machine

You worked for Microsoft at the time I assume and were privy to internal information, because that explanation bears no resemblance to the actual facts that can be determined by observing how the Registry was used: and suggesting symlinks are a copy-protection mechanism is pretty ridiculous really consiering what they achieve.

[Ryos36]

In response to post #29341584.

[email protected] wrote: I've been playing skyrim mods since the game was released, I really liked the NMM but this latest up date has ruined the game for me. half my mods will not install of the 205 mods I lost at least half. Needless to say I am not a happy camper. I wish there had been some more testing on it before it was released. I kind of feel like I have lost a whole bunch of my friend all at once...being an old man that is rather isolated it dose hurt...stupid I know but that is how it feels to me.

I couldn't agree more with you sir!
this latest update was released FAR TOO EARLY to be considered your normal, typical update. The rush of excitement of implementing something new can lead to several downfalls and unfortunately, THIS is one of them. My heart goes out to you. Don't let no silly update ruin the good times you logged into your game.

[lexx005]

 

In response to post #29157714.

 

 

 

Calystar wrote:

Edit; i found the responses in the post from the front page.

Also, i m going to buy fallout 4 in the next mounth.

Someone know another mod manager that wont f*** up my ssd with exessive write and that will be compatible with fallout 4?

I use Mod Organizer and have gone into the settings to save all my downloads that were stored on my SSD to one of my regular drives and this cleared a lot of space on the SSD. I am hoping MO will also work for my Fallout 4.

 

Yes, I would also like to know how do we upgrade mods now, uninstalling the old mod to install a new one is a lenghty process now.

 

Sorry attached comment to wrong post.

Edited October 9, 2015 by lexx005

[Nas00]

In response to post #29311014.

TLymond wrote:

@darkelfroamer (and others),

 

By installing it, you agreed to use "not ready for prime-time" software, yet (apparently) didn't take basic precautions.

 

Perhaps you need a refresher on the meaning of "beta" software:

 

Beta phase generally begins when the software is feature complete but likely to contain a number of known or unknown bugs.^[4] Software in the beta phase will generally have many more bugs in it than completed software, as well as speed/performance issues and may still cause crashes or data loss.

 

Don't want to help test unfinished code? Don't want to take the risk of messing-up your game? Don't want to be bothered to make a full backup? Don't use a beta version. :armscrossed:

NMM was ALWAYS a beta. No matter which version. Edited October 10, 2015 by Nas00

[klynhorton]

Not sure if it's your NMM version updates, as I usually download my mods manually, but it's been next to impossible for me to get onto the nexus at all until about 20 minutes ago. I run Firefox on Windowns 10 and rarely have any issues moving around the web but I've been getting "Transferring data from nexusmods.com" notices that go nowhere for up to 10 minutes for the last 3 days. Just thought you should know.

[geknight]

In response to post #29368554.

Kraggy wrote:

 

In response to post #29341534.
More than anything else these changes were made to prevent casual users from rolling functional copies of installed software onto backup and then putting it onto another machine

You worked for Microsoft at the time I assume and were privy to internal information, because that explanation bears no resemblance to the actual facts that can be determined by observing how the Registry was used: and suggesting symlinks are a copy-protection mechanism is pretty ridiculous really consiering what they achieve.

Nope, I never worked for Mr. Gates. I quit programming for money in the 80's, but I've been a gamer all my life, migrated to Windows 3.0 from DOS in 1994, and watched a little 752 byte config file grow into a 140M registry.

The WIN.INI file evolved into the modern registry largely between the days of disk dependent copy protection and the modern call home techniques that XP and Valve brought to the table. Anyone with a step debugger and a few hours could 'crack' the CD check and put a workable copy of most any software up for distribution. During the 9x Windows series the software hive was added to the registry and IMMEDIATELY developers began using the installers to write registry entries without which the program could not run. This upped the geek quotient for hacking and made them usually have to duplicate the original media in order to break the tie with the merchandise package. This reduced domestic piracy but overseas and 3rd world ripoffs didn't really start to fall off till online updating and registration crippled or limited their functionality. Since actions speak louder than words there was speculation among my local geek squad early on that the registry was just a trumped up copy protection scheme for both windows and its family of applications.

Don't get me wrong now, the GROWTH of the registry into the powerful developmental tool it is today was largely driven by its usefulness as a multiuser platform wide repository of OS and APP information, meaning that programs no longer were required to have tailor made INI files for every installation. The casual user doesn't like the registry almost as much as serious developers love it mostly because they can't read it top to bottom like they can an INI file and won't spend the time to learn it. The total security and access control the OS keeps over both the registry and its backup goes beyond idiot proofing and reflects the development environment of its early days.

With symbolic linking came the shell game.

Hardlinks came right behind the registry for Windows, allowing multiple directory entries for the same file in order to reduce data and directory rewriting - the obvious use here is the recycle bin - less obvious but more important is the shorthand it gives UAC to let every user on the same machine see the same folders but see different things in them. Symlinks came later yet. They mimic Unix links and were implemented to aid in migration from that OS. Unlike hard links they permit multiple directory entries pointing to the same filename (Which is actually a directory entry itself.) rather than to the actual data. Though logically congruent with hardlinks, symlinks must be parsed by the OS, cannot be nested more than 30 or so deep, and become less efficient as they get longer.

Before linking, most every application kept its file structure DOS style - compact and tree like. Data stayed in the main directory or in subs and you didn't have to look for it. Though I have been told that it was configured around the 'multiple user slash same look' concept I have never liked Microsoft's enforced logical division of my data space. Program files over here, documents there, default user, all users, public, ...yadayadayada. Like everybody else over the years I've gotten used to it. But from the piracy standpoint, there couldn't have been a much tougher setup to throw at them without getting a random number generator involved. First of all nobody puts things in exactly the same place, so it might take you a while to find all the files or that one key file you need. And then, unless you are moving it across drives to offline storage, you had to be careful that you got the data and not just a link. Again as before, simply rolling the files to another place with a keycracked executable just got a lot more involved. Symlinks in particular can span drives and are unnoticeable to the casual user. I'm sure this aspect of the design did not go unnoticed by either Microsoft or their development partners.

Yes, these are vital system building tools in their own right. But what you must not forget is that both symbolic linking and the Windows registry were crucial components in one of the greatest fortunes ever made. While Steve Jobs was getting hailed, gurued, and deified Bill Gates was getting RICH. He couldn't make much money in Asia and the 3rd world because pirates were selling his software (Along with everyone elses...) for pennies on the dollar. He HATED piracy. Loudly. Publicly. If you think copy protection wasn't job one at Microsoft in the 90s then you were either not alive then or you lived under a rock.

As for what symlinks themselves have achieved, they were marginally successful with their target market, but many old Unix users are sticking with Linux or OSX. They have however, proven very handy to gamers in the last few years due to the popularity of mixed SSD/HDD machines. Carefully managed with some symlinking you can maximize your fast space and prolong disk life. Steam Users even have an app out I hear to help them optimize their games for this. Regardless, it won't be too long until HDDs have gone the way of the floppy and symlinking will eat more machine resources than it saves. At that point the next hot tech will take over. NMM .70 or .80 might have to tackle VR and interphase with game processors that you wear on your belt. Edited October 10, 2015 by geknight

[vixengamer]

I lost my game. I cannot start it. I crash to desktop, whether i continue or try to start a new game. I lost my game. Go ahead, point out that yes, you say it is a beta. I lost my game. I had to green check everything, and the game still won't start. Steam downloaded alot of information, but it didn't help. I have no idea what i am supposed to do now. I don't care that you are a tech, and you can talk all your stuff Dark0ne. You can say i am not helpful. that sounds arrogant. i am the player. you are the tech. You took my game away. I will not forget that. Edited October 10, 2015 by vixengamer

[vixengamer]

In response to post #29346359.

janlevkoff wrote: PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE place a checkbox suggesting an option to never see the suggestion to upgrade to 6.xx. The reason for that is (if you care), that I'll never use 6.xx. I don't use profiles and if I want to go to the trouble of reinstalling my 250+ mods, I'll switch to MO, which I already use for FONV. I'm quite happy with the old NMM for playing Skyrim. The version 0.56.1, is very nice to use. Thank you for that.

yes. give us a choice to say no.