Who to gank: Brotherhood or Institute?

[Moraelin]

1. The notion isn't new, though. Even though they still called them "androids" in Fallout 3, the fugitive courser there has had a mind-wipe.

 

Granted, it's not clear if the doctor there was working for the Railroad, although the RR representative shows up as soon as you start asking about it. And he didn't get to DC via the RR, but we can probably chalk that up to his being a courser from Synth Reclamation, so I'd assume the Commonwealth RR wouldn't touch THAT with a ten foot pole.

 

But conspicuously, that one already had a factory reset code AND a code to re-activate his memory. And the latter sounds like something you wouldn't even think of including unless memory-wipes are a thing to deal with. That's extra hardware to backup those memories and restore them, and why would you even think of that otherwise?

 

So lazy or not, it's been canon for 7 years now. I would assume that if it were unintentional, they kinda had more than enough time to think about it, by the time they went through designing a SECOND game where that's in.

 

 

2. Be that as it may, the RR was never supposed to really be the good guys, so to speak. In Fallout 3, you had widespread human slavery, including a child getting his head blown off right before your eyes for trying to escape, and at least one woman former slave who isn't very subtle about her having been used as a sex slave, i.e., raped. There were were humans who had it FAR worse than a courser's having conscience problems.

 

Yet the RR representative there explicitly doesn't give a flip about those. As long as the synths are safe, the humans can rot in hell, basically.

 

Yes, they are a group of misguided twits.

 

 

3. And again, at least in FO4, at least some of them KNOW what that memory wipe does. Again, check out the whole dialogue with Glory when it's about putting Curie in her friend's body. She KNOWS that only the wetware will survive, and her friend effectively dies there. The whole dialogues is about her friend's sacrifice and such.

 

And Dr Amari knows it too.

 

Not to mention that both of them, and a lot of other RR members know that the procedure has a significant chance of leaving the synth brain-dead in any case.

 

I don't know if it's lazy writing or not, but it's not some accident. Yes, Bethesda not only did know that that's "choosing non-existence", but put a whole dialogue in the game (in fact, two versions of it, depending on what path you take) to make sure the player knows too. It's intentional.

 

 

4. I THINK a lot of the disappointment that people feel is over the fact that basically they want a good faction to side with. And I understand that. I'd like to be the nice guy too.

 

Siding with Lyons' group against the Enclave in FO3 was easy. One side is the literal knights in shiny armor, wanting to keep DC safe and provide it with clean water for everyone, the others are the ones wanting to murderize everyone who's not genetically pure. Meaning everyone, period.

 

Here it's not supposed to be easy. All three of the conflicting factions are not the kind of guys you'd want in charge, if you're going for being a good guy/gal.

 

The only really good faction, or at least the ones who are actually on the side of the people of MA, are really just the Minutemen.

 

 

I think that what we're seeing is basically what you get after decades of people complaining that good-vs-evil stories are oh, so simplistic and uninteresting and old hat. Even on TV it's been decades of spiralling down the drain, with increasingly darker heroes, until some are indistinguishable from the villains or even arguably worse than the villains in several aspects of their morality. We have the most popular series on TV being Game Of Thrones, which makes a point of offing anyone even remotely "good" early, and having a bunch of evil twits backstabbing each other for power.

 

Having any kind of clear morals and principles that include any amount of empathy or altruism is what's decried as "lazy writing" nowadays.

 

Well, get used to seeing more of that in games too :tongue:

[UhuruNUru]

Never got that far, get to that later.

Despite the bias of only giving 2 of the factions as choices.

The Minutemen are the obvious good guys, that they suck in game is BGS's poor AI/equipment doing. With the settlements you can make alone, they dominate the entire map. All other factions would have already been wiped out if they didn't respawn, long before I reached the institute.

BoS are simply stormtroopers type Nazi's.

Institute science type Nazi's.

Railroad?, why would you consider any single issue group, the Railroad isn't an option whether you support them on synths or not.

Gunners are not mentioned, I thought they were another faction you could join, they are the most credible military organisation, but no better than BoS or the institute.

Indeed all 3 are no more than more organised raiders.

 

I had built a large organisation of settlements and considered them as a faction, not the Minutemen, they're just the Settlement Police force not the leadership.

 

I've sided with the Railroad over liberating synths, but my goal is synths keeping their memories and living openly with full human rights, because from the description given, Synths are flesh and blood constructs made from human DNA and mind controlled using tech.

In fact, in all likelihood that mind control tech is designed to work on humans (babies kidnapper for example).

As for the idea that any AI will always be hostile to any life form, that's movie script rubbish with no science involved, no such AI has ever existed that we know of, until it does, we have no idea what it will do.

 

If the game allowed it, I'd dismantle all the nukes.

Declare a New Commonwealth and declare an once only amnesty for all individuals/families and invite them to join the New Commonwealth as individuals or if they control existing land, the land becomes New Commonwealth land, expanding the New Commonwealth.

If any faction tries to stop this process (they will), I go straight for the leadership and wipe them out. Then offer the rank and file, a dismantled faction offer of, join the New Commenwealth under individual amnesty or leave the New Commonwealth for good. Pointing out that they only get one amnesty refusal, but can remain uncommitted as long as they want.

 

Each faction refusing to submitwould get my army sent in to kill the leadership and in this game, that is just my character, on her own. The games let me be so powerful that only solo main base assaults offer any challenge and that's only due to many attacking at the same time.

 

Now, I know the games not going to allow that outcome, but I'll never find out and judging by how much is on rails and not a choice, it makes no difference.

 

The last straw for me was when I was forced to read a pre written text as the spokesman for an Institute leader I despise, son or not.

I expected to be able to see the speeches content, before deciding on my action for this important an event.

The Minutemen leader and Top Railroad Heavy, publicly declaring for the Instute in a recording outside that leaders control, is not something lightly done and simply wouldn't happen, without a long negotiation over wording.

Game restrictions may have limited that reality, but reading before speaking.

The moment my character spoke when I expected to read first, then decide whether to make the speech. I Stopped playing the on tracks Vanilla main story. I will never bother with it again.

 

Then again I bought Fallout 4 to mod it, not to play the Vanilla mediocrity that has gotten steadily worse since Morrowind.

All BGS releases from Fallout 3 to this are poorly made game with a few fun elements.

Total Biscuit asks how come Fallout 4 didn't get refunded much like Arkham. The answer I gave was even though I waited for release and knew how bad it was, I wasn't surprised.

 

I didn't by Fallout 4 as a game, I bought it as a modding platform.

BGS' s poor game is a 2nd class modding sandbox and more wrong witht vanilla, just means more mods need adding.

Bethesda's mediocrity as an RPG game, simply gives more opportunities for mods to fix it. BGS probably won't fix much.

[Moraelin]

You can't join the Gunners, that's why nobody mentions them. It might have been interesting, but as several characters lampshade it in the game, they're just raiders with better equipment.

[Raycheetah]

1. The notion isn't new, though. Even though they still called them "androids" in Fallout 3, the fugitive courser there has had a mind-wipe.

 

Granted, it's not clear if the doctor there was working for the Railroad, although the RR representative shows up as soon as you start asking about it. And he didn't get to DC via the RR, but we can probably chalk that up to his being a courser from Synth Reclamation, so I'd assume the Commonwealth RR wouldn't touch THAT with a ten foot pole.

 

But conspicuously, that one already had a factory reset code AND a code to re-activate his memory. And the latter sounds like something you wouldn't even think of including unless memory-wipes are a thing to deal with. That's extra hardware to backup those memories and restore them, and why would you even think of that otherwise?

 

So lazy or not, it's been canon for 7 years now. I would assume that if it were unintentional, they kinda had more than enough time to think about it, by the time they went through designing a SECOND game where that's in.

 

 

2. Be that as it may, the RR was never supposed to really be the good guys, so to speak. In Fallout 3, you had widespread human slavery, including a child getting his head blown off right before your eyes for trying to escape, and at least one woman former slave who isn't very subtle about her having been used as a sex slave, i.e., raped. There were were humans who had it FAR worse than a courser's having conscience problems.

 

Yet the RR representative there explicitly doesn't give a flip about those. As long as the synths are safe, the humans can rot in hell, basically.

 

Yes, they are a group of misguided twits.

 

 

3. And again, at least in FO4, at least some of them KNOW what that memory wipe does. Again, check out the whole dialogue with Glory when it's about putting Curie in her friend's body. She KNOWS that only the wetware will survive, and her friend effectively dies there. The whole dialogues is about her friend's sacrifice and such.

 

And Dr Amari knows it too.

 

Not to mention that both of them, and a lot of other RR members know that the procedure has a significant chance of leaving the synth brain-dead in any case.

 

I don't know if it's lazy writing or not, but it's not some accident. Yes, Bethesda not only did know that that's "choosing non-existence", but put a whole dialogue in the game (in fact, two versions of it, depending on what path you take) to make sure the player knows too. It's intentional.

 

 

4. I THINK a lot of the disappointment that people feel is over the fact that basically they want a good faction to side with. And I understand that. I'd like to be the nice guy too.

 

Siding with Lyons' group against the Enclave in FO3 was easy. One side is the literal knights in shiny armor, wanting to keep DC safe and provide it with clean water for everyone, the others are the ones wanting to murderize everyone who's not genetically pure. Meaning everyone, period.

 

Here it's not supposed to be easy. All three of the conflicting factions are not the kind of guys you'd want in charge, if you're going for being a good guy/gal.

 

The only really good faction, or at least the ones who are actually on the side of the people of MA, are really just the Minutemen.

 

 

I think that what we're seeing is basically what you get after decades of people complaining that good-vs-evil stories are oh, so simplistic and uninteresting and old hat. Even on TV it's been decades of spiralling down the drain, with increasingly darker heroes, until some are indistinguishable from the villains or even arguably worse than the villains in several aspects of their morality. We have the most popular series on TV being Game Of Thrones, which makes a point of offing anyone even remotely "good" early, and having a bunch of evil twits backstabbing each other for power.

 

Having any kind of clear morals and principles that include any amount of empathy or altruism is what's decried as "lazy writing" nowadays.

 

Well, get used to seeing more of that in games too :tongue:

Voluntarily subjecting oneself to a mind-wipe still makes no sense. With Harkness in FO3, I see it as less intended to establish a critical canon, than to create a set-piece gimmick to generate the "drama" of a man discovering that he wasn't who he thought he was. In FO4, Bethesda took the precedent and ran with it, expanding on it as a simpler (read: less complicated to implement for the game designers) solution than accounting for escaped synths who, more realistically, would have had their faces changed, but their own identities left intact, or, at worst, modified to allow them to blend in.

 

The Railroad in FO4 comes across as a vestigial faction, to me; even if they do have a double-handful of quests, their extremely narrow focus (which ignores their rather broader anti-slavery agenda from the DC Wasteland) doesn't lend them much weight as a long-term player in the Commonwealth. I like individual members (Deacon, Tinker Tom), and the Ballistic Weave reward is great (even if stupidly gated behind alliance with this faction), but I don't find their overspecialization particularly appealing, or noble. I'll take Preston Garvey's White Hats over the Railroad any day, even if his dialog deliveries are low-key, Babe. =^[.]^=

[Moraelin]

Well, it seems to me like we're in agreement that the RR is not really who you'd want in charge of the people of the Commonwealth.

 

All I'm saying is that IMHO that's intentional. None of the three warring factions are the good guys. Anyone expecting to find some knights in shiny armour to join and with whom to rescue your baby, well, was in for a nasty surprise, because there were not supposed to be any.

 

As for synths voluntarily submitting to it, well, obviously not all of them do. But you also have to realize that we're talking uneducated slaves, not someone who even minored in neuroscience. Or even heard of it. These guys are actually worse off than even the slaves in the ol' south, because they don't even know how to function above ground or really in any kind of society. They weren't raised by other slaves, or anything, they were just dumped into a world that always told them where to go and what to do.

 

And the only persons willing to help them have been telling them all along that ooh, they'll need a new face and a head reboot, or the big bad institute will catch them and do bad things to them. See escorting H2. First thing Highrise tells H2 is exactly that. The very fact that they don't even know how to function above without drawing attention is why they're told they need the new memories of someone who does.

 

Do you almost certainly go into slavery, or go the cognitive dissonance resolution that it'll still be you, just not with the same memories, etc. And you're told that hey, look, there's already all these people living happy lives after they did that. Wouldn't you too start a brand new happy life than continue being a slave? And, look, these guys have been the first people to be nice to you. The first who said they're glad to meet you. They risk their lives for you. They wouldn't do something BAD to you, would they? You can trust them, right?

 

Sure, the latter is not a choice you'd take, knowing what you do. But I can see it as a choice someone can be misled into if they're really not having the information for it to be an informed choice.

[Degasai]

Believe it or not, that's actually an honest question. I don't see it as good vs evil: I see it as the constant of the Brotherhood being an a**hole and the potential redemption of the Institute under your character's leadership. Yes the the Institute tinkered with FEV, but they also found a cure for it. Both factions will liquidate the Railroad. I honestly can't see the Minutemen and the Brotherhood not coming to blows at some point. The Institute is like Operation Paperclip:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

 

We could have hung a good amount of those people, especially Werner von Braun. In stead, they helped us go to the moon. They, more or less, did all right without the toxic atmosphere of Nazi Germany, and it seems the Institute is waiting for someone to save them from themselves. If "Father" can't see your character's disgust at Synth creation/enslavement, he's a damn fool. I think even Father knows in his heart of hearts, the third generation Synths were a bridge too far, in any case he doesn't press his point convincingly and does seem concerned about your objections.

 

In a straight up contest between the Brotherhood and the Institute, the Institute I see as a wild card, dangerous and yet probably vital. The Brotherhood had it's chance in Owen Lyons, and they rejected it. But I( could see the Institute mass manufacturing GECKS, I see them curing the mutants, I see them going back to non-sapient second and first generation synths. No true good will ever come from the Brotherhood again.

 

My ultimate loyalty is with the Minutemen. But if given the choice between the big boys, which one deserves the gank more? Which one is the worst enemy of humanity? Which is the worst enemy of freedom?

This game dynamic seems to be the norm for BethSoft, and it bothers the heck out of me, too. While all choices in siding with one of the 3 non-Minutemen faction are less than ideal, they still represent an improvement over Skyrim's story line (which absolutely sucks). I don't know why Bethesda has such a problem allowing a "Good" vs. "Evil" design. Todd has jumped all over the "There's no such thing as Good or Evil, it's all just shades of grey" philosophy. IMHO, that's a poor choice for a game. It goes hand in hand with the lack of RPG elements in FO4. Why they scrapped the karma system is just beyond me.

 

Ultimately, these games are an escape from reality. You should be able to play as a true hero or a true villain. WHY do we not have the choices to do so???

[Alano69]

Side with the Brotherhood if you like the army and want to prevent humanity to be surrounded by terminators

Side with the institute if you are sensible at what "Father" tells you and believe that robots should share earth (underground) with humans.

[Raycheetah]

All I'm saying is that IMHO that's intentional. None of the three warring factions are the good guys. Anyone expecting to find some knights in shiny armour to join and with whom to rescue your baby, well, was in for a nasty surprise, because there were not supposed to be any.

One of the shining pluses of FO4 is the NPC Followers you can have tag along on your quest. In particular, Nick and Piper express genuine sympathy with your situation, and I find Nick to be perhaps the most endearing of the lot, simply based on his inherent humanity. The factions have their own fish to fry, and could even be considered a distraction from finding Shaun. After you get to him, well, then it's all politics, but there's still a plucky reporter and a beaten-up old synth detective who will put their lives on the line for you, simply because (presumably, unless you've been acting like a jerk) they like you, and not merely because some Jarl has appointed them to be your Housecarls, or some equivalent. =^[.]^=

[SirTwist]

I know I am off topic here, but I'm kind of breaking things down as how I see it, maybe not the game developers, or even some other people see it.

 

1) Personally, if the settlers were to man up, so speak, stand on their own two feet, and able to keep all their people together, then they wouldn't need to be saved all the bloody time. That just irks me to now end, and I want to shut them up every single way I can. (Thank the living stars I am playing the game on PC, not a console, where I can mod the game to get them to bloody well shut up with their stub their toes missions.) I wish the minutemen would settle the problems, rather than me.

 

2) The minutemen, while I like them, I hate the radiant quests that Garvey gives out. I should be the one to say something like this, "Send a battalion of minutemen to deal with this mess, and I will go to the settlement to establish links, etc." Or "Get off your lazy butt, and go do it yourself. Pick a squad, and go do it. Why tell me, when you should do it yourself?" Or other stuff. They are for the Commonwealth, but outside of their settlements, I think they could care less.

 

3) The institute. Great technology, but the big downside is the kidnapping and replacing people. I would be much happier if they were to knock out a settlement with some sort of sleeping gas, then go along and pick up some tissue samples, blood samples, food samples, and see why people are still people, and make things better for them. However, (Not having gotten too far into the game, really,) from what you all are saying, (not everyone but a consensus), they are evil because of the kidnappings and replacements. Rather than nuking the Institute, I want to go in, shut down the kidnappings and replacements, and instead open up the Institute, and help the people out. And even clear out, etc. the Glowing Sea.

 

4) Brotherhood of Steel. Personally, I would like to see them also share their tech. And also I would love to see them be far more benevolent than they really are. (Like going to one of your settlements and demanding the crops, when you should be going there, and nicely asking to buy said crops.) And even helping to safe guard the Commonwealth, and the settlements. Instead, they stick to their airship, and only does what needs to be done. Once in a while might be, vaguely, helping people out.

 

5) The Railroad. Nice concept, but I think they should not really be counted as a faction. They are an off shoot of the Institute, and are rouges. I do like it that they are trying to save the synths, but I think that they are going about it the wrong way. They should be doing what they are, but also helping out the Commonwealth with integrating the synths into settlements on small basis, and other things. Basically, using what they know, and synths, to help rebuild the Commonwealth. Instead, they are "concerned" for the synths, and want to get them out of dodge. Me, I think suit them up, and clean up the Commonwealth, and the glowing sea, if they can.

 

I would want, after all the settlements are done, to not hear from Garvey, or any other minutemen, and rather see them all distributed to the settlements to protect them, and provide me with support. I want to kill of both Father and Maxson, and take over both operations. I would also like to fold in the Railroad back into things. Barring that, I'll nuke the Institute, and kill off, if I can, Maxson, and the one armorer who wants me to steal crops.

[Moraelin]

If only it were that simple. The institute:

 

- kidnaps and murders people, but also

- is into slavery

- murderized every single delegate when the Commonwealth tried to form a provisional government, plunging it back into chaos

- and have been actively destabilizing the Commonwealth ever since

- killed family members of the Railroad as retaliation

- beta-tested an early Gen 3 (and presumably a prototype courser, by the results) by sending him fully armed into a major settlement, causing the Broken Mask massacre

- experimented on people with FEV, and killed them afterwards (and no, they didn't develop a cure. Virgil's serum only counteracts the one FEV strain HE created.)

- exterminated whole communities just for something they wanted from them (e.g., all the rest of Vault 111),

- or even for something the Institute wanted and THOUGHT they had, but the poor barstards didn't actually have (e.g., University Point),

- are still letting their Gen 1 and 2 exterminate whole communities for nothing more than the scrap,

- sent a hitman to murderize a top Institute scientist for trying to run away from the Institute. Mind you, he didn't sell any secrets, nor join any enemies. Just for running away.

- freed you and led you to chase their top hitman just to see how long you'd survive in an unfamiliar hostile world

- proclaim you an enemy on account that, literally, "whoever isn't with us is against us", and start actively sending synths to kill you or murder your settlers, if you don't agree to join IMMEDIATELY

Etc.

 

So, yeah, they might be a tad more evil than you seem to think. Just a mite :wink:

 

As for the Minutemen, well, basically they suffer from the problem of being badly written. The problem isn't as much that Preston gives radiant quests. The Railroad does too, but nobody hates them for that. The problem is that the game tells you that you're the general, but then Preston acts like he is. That's the jarring contradiction, in a nutshell.

 

That could have been avoided quite trivially, for example by making Preston get crippled or something, so he'd have a reason to stay behind and pass the information to you. Then none of us would wonder "why the hell aren't YOU doing it, then?"

 

Of course, then they'd have to give you another companion, but, meh, it's not like they couldn't have dug up another minuteman. Or, hell, just make Jun want to join and be a companion, instead of perpetually moaning.