SirTwist Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Moraelin, I knew there was far more to the Institute than what I said. However, I can see them, after a cleansing, able to help humanity. The cleansing would be in the form of ganking Father, and allowing the Railroad to play with the computers to reprogram all synths to be decent, and help humanity. But, since there isn't the option to do so, a nuke is the best way to go. More I look at thing, the more I want to help Maxson, somewhat, but I want to get rid of Teegan. I don't like having to turn my settlements into farms for him. I think he should be left to only sell stuff, not have quests that are, frankly, morally wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moraelin Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Well, I didn't say you should have a certain opinion or another about them. Just giving you the information that your previous post was missing. How you go from there, is up to you. That said, about ganking Father and turning the institute around, if that's your first choice of plan... He's dying of an aggressive form of cancer anyway, and nominates you as his successor. So if you think you can turn an institute full of sociopaths with a deep contempt for all life above ground into nice people, go for it. Be warned that even getting nominated instantly causes a whole department to revolt, and while you CAN talk them out of it -- or shoot them out of it -- I think it's just a taste of what would realistically be to come if you try to push any harder. I don't think you want to cause a revolt in Synth Reclamation, for example, given that they have all the coursers AND are already talking of sending them against other departments if they don't get what they want. Also, none of the Institute missions after that indicate any real choice to change direction. Presumably because your character is well aware of the above. But if you want to write your own fanfic in your head about turning the institute around and helping the people above, well, I suppose realistically you COULD take it very slowly and retire the old guard over the next 30-40 years, and promote more level-headed folks in their stead. It would take a lot of patience and shrewd maneuvering, but it could realistically happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charwo Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 Or, Moraelin, you could have an internal coup, or rather a systematic purge. Lawrence rebels sure, but he represents that not everyone is as comfortable with synths as they seem. Stalin did way more for far less realignment. If you're going to be ruthless enough join the Institute, heads are going to have to roll regardless. I am not my character but I'd be willing to personally execute everyone and Synth Retention and their families if I got so much as a whiff of disloyalty out of them, and it would most certainly stink. Machiavelli says you get one shot at purging your enemies, you have to do it early, you must be thorough and you must only target legitimate threats. Secret Police forces are more trouble than they're worth. People like Lawrence and Liam and Dr. Li if she stays are your allies, however huffy they get from time to time. I seriously want a mod where I get to personally liquidate Synth Retention. No battles, no drama, just firing into a jail cell as they attempt to dodge the bullets. Fish in a f*#@ing barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UhuruNUru Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 You can't join the Gunners, that's why nobody mentions them. It might have been interesting, but as several characters lampshade it in the game, they're just raiders with better equipment.Fair enough, I found some neutral Gunners, I could talk to without them shooting me, early on. I assumed, that was the starting point for joining their faction, but that now brings up the question, why not?They are more of a force than the railroad, even though I was supporting freeing the synths, I never considered, the railroad could be a major faction and the Gunners not be one.The railroad missions were a good side quest to me, before I read this thread, I never considered them major players. The faction I expected to suppoert, isn't even a faction, apparently. The Settlements I've linked is my Faction, the Minutemen are well armed policemen, not the Settlements rulers. The sandbox has some good ingredients, like I found with Skyrim though Bethesda Game Studios can't mix those ingredients well, they start with a good base, but the demands of Bethesda Softworks, the new AAA publisher on the block, for the general appeal to attract the occaisonal gaming mass market, stifle good developement.The refusal to change to a new engine, though it makes early modding of the game easier, it actually limits modding long term. A new engine is essential for future progress of this title.Bethesda marketing actually claimed there were no loading screens in the Fallout world, well they must have a strange definition of what world means, because in my definition, a door isn't a portal to another world.The fact you must go through a door, loading screen and then can fast travel, is just one engine limitation, That's become unacceptable in this new era of 64-bit gaming. On it's own, that single issue, should be enough to force an engine change.There are many other hard coded limits, that this Gamebryo based engine has, the original Gamebryo engine is now only sold to make mobile games now and Bethesda used it first for Morrowind.Though BGS's highly modified hybrid, is much better than that base engine. It is still restricted by much of the same core code, additionally each games rewrites are overlaid on that base code, which makes it buggier with many old fragments left lying around.There comes a point when the benefits of a full rewrite, outweigh the drawbacks, that point was Fallout 3. That it was stretched to Skyrim, was a disappointment, but I really thought the move to 64-bit would instigate an engine change.THe BGS engine is simply to old, has been rewritten to many times. I'd prefer a new custom made BGS engine, one designed from the ground up for open world moddable content. I'm looking to see what Firaxis provide with XCOM 2, they've promised to provide full game source code and all the tools the developers actually use. Good documentation will also help.If they deliver on these promises it will define a new standard for what supporting mods means. I don't consider what BGS provide, support for modding. BGS are one of the better devs, even so, Bethesda Softworks, the publisher doesn't support modding.No current AAA games support modding, that I know of. I define my levels of dev provided moddability like this (All games can be modded, some are made easier or harder, to mod) Against Modding: Most Ubisoft and EA games, for instance, will change the game to make all modding harder.Intolerant to Modding: Tolerates limited modding, but may change the game to blosck specific mods. GTA 5 for example.Tolerate Modding: Accept modding happens, but doesn't help or hinder modding.Accept Modding: Accept modding and provide restricted modding Tools, but only provides Tools, with only basic documentation limited to using the tools GUI.Support Modding: Accept modding and provide full modding Tools, with extensive documentation focused on modding, providing in game information as well as tool guides.Full Modding Support: Provide full source code for game and all the Tools, the Developers used with full documentation and bug fixing help to mod creators (Not users). If Firaxis deliver on their promises, they would be the first developer to actuially Support Modding under those definitions. Full Modding Support is unlikely, but never, say never.Bethesda Softworks/BGS are one of the better publishers/devs out there, for modding, they are firmly in the Accept Modding group. They provide only restricted tools, with missing parts and functions that the devs had.They provide no modding help on the game. All we know about how the BGS Engine works, comes from modders finding out that information. BGS tell modders nothing about how things work.If Firaxis do deliver, BGS will no longer be one of the best, they will have to do much better to rate that again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirTwist Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 See, this is why we need karma back in the game. If we have karma, and perks/skills that are worth their weight, we could convince the institue, ala Lawrence, to be civilized, and at least listen to us. Does anyone else feel like the perk system has actually dumbed down the game, or is it just me? And why remove the karma system as well? Is it so that the game can be more compatible with consoles? I would rather have a full game, with separate skills, perks, and SPECIAL. And a good karma section, as well. Would make the game better. I also want the older games, Fallout 3/NV, conversation starters back. I want more than 4 choices for a conversation. Again, is this consoles to blame for this fiasco? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moraelin Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Or, Moraelin, you could have an internal coup, or rather a systematic purge. Lawrence rebels sure, but he represents that not everyone is as comfortable with synths as they seem. Stalin did way more for far less realignment. If you're going to be ruthless enough join the Institute, heads are going to have to roll regardless. I am not my character but I'd be willing to personally execute everyone and Synth Retention and their families if I got so much as a whiff of disloyalty out of them, and it would most certainly stink. Machiavelli says you get one shot at purging your enemies, you have to do it early, you must be thorough and you must only target legitimate threats. Secret Police forces are more trouble than they're worth. People like Lawrence and Liam and Dr. Li if she stays are your allies, however huffy they get from time to time. I seriously want a mod where I get to personally liquidate Synth Retention. No battles, no drama, just firing into a jail cell as they attempt to dodge the bullets. Fish in a f***ing barrel. Stalin already had a pretty good power base to start with, and he wasn't actually deviating that much from Lenin's vision. The main conflict with the Trotsky faction was that Stalin was too moderate for their taste, if you can imagine that. That gang would have preferred continuing violent revolutions, and a lot more aggressive an approach to spreading the communism. E.g., a MAJOR point of contention was the China policy: Stalin wanted the communist party to work out a truce with the KMT and consolidate, while Trotsky wanted revolution RIGHT NAO. And it wasn't just external: Trotsky and his gang envisioned pretty much continued violent revolution even as a way to run the USSR, which really is no way to run any country. Really, Trotsky wasn't the moderate there. So actually Stalin didn't face a hell of a lot of opposition when he wanted to just centralize and tone it down a notch. Most of the central committee didn't mind the idea of having a cushy post instead of a continued anarchy where some revolutionary gang can shoot them in the face at any time. Also, even Stalin needed a whole 10 years between taking power and launching the purges. So, yeah, I see your point that a more coup-oriented approach could speed up the timetable, especially if you start with Synth Retention, but, yeah, I think it would still take some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raycheetah Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 See, this is why we need karma back in the game. If we have karma, and perks/skills that are worth their weight, we could convince the institue, ala Lawrence, to be civilized, and at least listen to us. Does anyone else feel like the perk system has actually dumbed down the game, or is it just me? And why remove the karma system as well? Is it so that the game can be more compatible with consoles? I would rather have a full game, with separate skills, perks, and SPECIAL. And a good karma section, as well. Would make the game better. I also want the older games, Fallout 3/NV, conversation starters back. I want more than 4 choices for a conversation. Again, is this consoles to blame for this fiasco?Having watched plenty of Let's Plays of FO4 played on consoles, I can tell you that those conversation options correspond pretty darn well to the four control buttons on a certain, popular console controller. ='[.]'= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charwo Posted January 6, 2016 Author Share Posted January 6, 2016 Or, Moraelin, you could have an internal coup, or rather a systematic purge. Lawrence rebels sure, but he represents that not everyone is as comfortable with synths as they seem. Stalin did way more for far less realignment. If you're going to be ruthless enough join the Institute, heads are going to have to roll regardless. I am not my character but I'd be willing to personally execute everyone and Synth Retention and their families if I got so much as a whiff of disloyalty out of them, and it would most certainly stink. Machiavelli says you get one shot at purging your enemies, you have to do it early, you must be thorough and you must only target legitimate threats. Secret Police forces are more trouble than they're worth. People like Lawrence and Liam and Dr. Li if she stays are your allies, however huffy they get from time to time. I seriously want a mod where I get to personally liquidate Synth Retention. No battles, no drama, just firing into a jail cell as they attempt to dodge the bullets. Fish in a f***ing barrel.Stalin already had a pretty good power base to start with, and he wasn't actually deviating that much from Lenin's vision. The main conflict with the Trotsky faction was that Stalin was too moderate for their taste, if you can imagine that. That gang would have preferred continuing violent revolutions, and a lot more aggressive an approach to spreading the communism. E.g., a MAJOR point of contention was the China policy: Stalin wanted the communist party to work out a truce with the KMT and consolidate, while Trotsky wanted revolution RIGHT NAO. And it wasn't just external: Trotsky and his gang envisioned pretty much continued violent revolution even as a way to run the USSR, which really is no way to run any country. Really, Trotsky wasn't the moderate there. So actually Stalin didn't face a hell of a lot of opposition when he wanted to just centralize and tone it down a notch. Most of the central committee didn't mind the idea of having a cushy post instead of a continued anarchy where some revolutionary gang can shoot them in the face at any time. Also, even Stalin needed a whole 10 years between taking power and launching the purges. So, yeah, I see your point that a more coup-oriented approach could speed up the timetable, especially if you start with Synth Retention, but, yeah, I think it would still take some time. Your points are well taken. Even still, I'd regard Synth Retention as the Trotskyites by comparison. You are, if good, going to be a moderating force on the Institutes. Cause even if you don't make any more gen-3 synths no one is going to give up the Gen-1 and 2s as canon fodder, and trading cloak and danger conspiracy towards more of being a traditional hegemon. Plus out and out trade never hurt anyone (unless it was opium). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moraelin Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Well, the point is why the Trotsky gang were not the most popular gang. They were also a danger for everyone else. The idea of continued violent internal revolutions, pretty much as a substitute for elections, was a danger to everyone in the central committee who wasn't an anarchistic idiot. Supporting someone more moderate was a no brainer. Stalin pretty much just had to get rid of 3 idiots from the central committee to nerf that faction, and even then other than Trotsky himself eventually the other two came around. Here it's a bit harder to see why the others would see it in their best interest to muzzle SR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raycheetah Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 The ultimate reason to gank the Institute: They put the toilet paper over the back of the roll. Only a synth/Communist/Rotarian would do that. =^[.]~= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts