Crime and Punishment Overhaul Mod

[drewsbrew]

Sorry about the delayed response again... all the same stuff as last time, but this time my internet was also down for a couple of day and I didn't even get a chance to read these comments until now. Anyways...

 

Drew is fine Madrias,

 

And your idea about the guards not caring about you being the ideal inmate the last time you were in sounds particularly interesting to me. From the beginning I have wanted each subsequent stay in prison to be different from the last; if you play the quests your first visit, the characters will all have different quests when you go back the second, third, and maybe even fourth times. Anyway, having the guard reputation reset each time you go back while the inmate reputation stays the same can help keep things interesting.

 

Slade37,

 

I like your skooma ideas about skooma addiction but I'll probably be dealing with that aspect of the mod later, in fact skooma addiction might not even be part of the core mod. I'm planning this as a series of mods where there will be a core file that will basically be the reputation system, new punishments for crimes, prison quests/reputation, new NPC behavior (criminal behavior) etc. then I'll make separate mods that focus on specific types of crime, and they plugin to the main file; for example, a mod that allows you to join a group of bandits and eventually take over and become their leader, a mod that allows you to build a slave trade, and a mod that allows you to build a skooma dealing empire in Skyrim. The last one (o at least the very beginnings of it) is linked in my signature. I started working on it, but then stopped temporarily after I moved things around a bit.

[Madrias]

Sorry for my delayed reply, mostly just being busy (actually trying to play Skyrim, because I've dedicated a playthrough to doing those quests I typically skip on any given playthrough, so I'm doing a Stormcloak Civil War, as many sidequests as possible, I will finish the Thieves' Guild for the first time, and I must become Archmage before I even think of joining the Companions.)

 

The reason for the guards not remembering you (this could change, I've had an idea for it, and I'll get to it) is entirely based on the idea that to the guards, you're just another prisoner, another number on a log-sheet that they get paid a certain amount of money for. While they may recall that Inmate #302 tends to give them trouble and Inmate #404 escaped again, and that Inmate #591 is supposedly the Dragonborn and has been doing tasks for them, as soon as you're released, they just turn to a new sheet in the log-books and keep going. So even if you do get captured and put on the list, it's with a new proverbial number, and thereby, at low reputations, you slip under the radar and your notoriety resets.

 

So, I mentioned a couple things there that might have caught your attention, the first being that I had an idea about the guards possibly remembering you. The second being that mention of notoriety coming up again. That's right: The two ideas I have play equal parts in making the player's life miserable.

 

First and foremost, let's deal with how guards could remember you as a fairly new player, with no fame to their name. Let's start outside the prison for this, but we'll get to inside the prison in a bit.

 

Any high-profile crime is likely to have the guards remembering you more easily, and not in the way you'd want. Basically, the thought is, they'll easily forget the sneak-thief who got busted swiping apples off of the fruit stands, but they won't forget the murderer. This also influences how easily the guards will drop their guard and consider you for tasks other than requiring you to keep your cell clean.

 

Secondly, the more often you go into prison, the more the guards of that hold will remember you, and the more likely you are (outside and inside the prison, this) to take the blame when things go wrong. Essentially, the idea that a criminal is always a criminal, and that you're so deeply into crime that you can't stop committing crimes, even after a few jail terms. You'll be less likely to be picked for tasks, watched more often, and get rougher punishments when they're handed down. You'll also be blamed more often when things disappear in prison, even if it's just a corrupt guard who decided to have that bottle of mead during lunch, because you're known to be a criminal, so why wouldn't you steal it?

 

So now that we've covered outside, let's go inside. Getting yourself remembered by guards is easy: break the rules. (see a theme here? They don't remember good things, only bad things. This is intentional: Think of 10 good things that happened in the past week. Now, think of only 10 bad things that happened in the past three months. Bet you come up with more bad things than good ones, even though you're only supposed to come up with 10 each.) Stealing things, fighting other inmates, petty vandalism, getting found with contraband on your person or in your cell, these all make the guards dislike you, and more likely to remember you next time - as trouble.

 

So, let's fast forward a couple quests, one dragon fight, a couple trips to the Greybeards, and one pesky Blade. You're now the Dragonborn, and you're, well, kind-of-a-big-deal around Skyrim. Keeping in mind what I mentioned here at your request, you're now known around Skyrim, your reactions matter, etc., the guards may have a few different ways of reacting to having the Dragonborn in their captivity. If you're known for being fairly calm and mild-mannered about things, and you're not a chronic law-breaker, then it's possible that the guards will go easy on you. If you're known for being arrogant and hot-tempered, and you're almost always breaking the law, prepare for the guards to throw the book at you at every opportunity, as well as making your life worse every day by getting you busted for contraband or finding excuses to go put you in the torture room.

 

Now, let's assume you picked a non-evil, story-line-driven side-quest, like the College of Winterhold or the Companions, the two big ones. Being Archmage or Harbinger would get you specialized treatment. Archmage would get you a cell with multiple locks and a couple 'nice' bracelets that keep you from casting, so you can't be tempted to use your magic to pick the locks, or teleport, or brain someone with a flying pot. Being Harbinger would guarantee you don't travel without your hands being bound, and your cell (single man, at that, because they want to minimize the risk of you turning your cell-mate into a bloody stain on the floor) wil be checked every morning for weapons. Depending on whether it's known that you're a Werewolf or whether it's a secret, you may be fitted with silver bracelets that prevent transformations and act as a very visible reminder that you are in fact a werewolf. If you're a known vampire, don't expect to get any chances to feed, and be prepared to be gagged (like Ulfric was at the start of the game, with the vanilla beginning) at all times. Also expect that the guards will have some form of Divine protection against you feeding on them, something like, I dunno, the Tears of Arkay, which turns their blood into a vampire-harming poison.

 

Now, if you're a member of the Thieves' Guild, or Guild Master, expect that you'll be put in a cell with your hands bound at all times, except when out of your cell. Also expect random searches for lockpicks. And expect that all the guards will blame you when any single thing in the prison disappears, even if you didn't do it.

 

If you're the Listener of the Dark Brotherhood (and only reason for requiring Listener and completion of the DB questline is because they do an event that, well, quite honestly is noteworthy), expect the guards to actually fear you. "Here's a master assassin, someone who killed the most powerful man in the Empire, and he's sitting in that solitary cell, staring at me." The idea is that being the Listener means you could easily kill anyone, and not worried about what weapon you'd use. Expect frequent searches for weapons, but also expect little interaction with the guards, as they want to be as far away from you as possible.

 

Now, it wouldn't be fair to mention all of that and not touch on the last way to get noticed by the guards. Being on the opposing faction of the Civil War. Stormcloak in an Imperial Prison? Expect to get an extra beating at every opportunity. Imperial in a Stormcloak Prison? Expect a few extra trips into the torture room. Both being the idea that if they can manage to beat some information out of you, you'll get out earlier (note: you won't, but that's what all torturers seem to say to get information easier) if you just simply tell them something important. And of course, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for the Stormcloaks or the Legion to simply feel resentful for the opposing faction sitting in their jail, mocking them because they're not allowed to kill it. So, instead, they beat the player more often, and they do more damage when they do so, meaning it takes longer to heal. And I've got an idea for that, so I'll mention that later. Yes, I know, I really should plan this out before I start typing, because I'm idea-prone when typing out ideas.

 

The reason for the opposite factions being rougher on the player is simple: What driving force is there in the vanilla game to complete the civil war? That's right: trying to avoid Season Unending, which is by far the most boring and pointless quest I've ever done. So, what if siding with a faction brought their bounty prices down a bit, but raised the prices from the other side? So, for example, let's say that you stole something and incurred a bounty of 2000 gold. That's 2000 gold from either side, by the way. If you, say, sided with the Stormcloaks, then in any Stormcloak hold, it's 1500 (or 1000) gold, but in an Imperial hold, it's 4000 (or 3000) gold. (The idea is that some adjustment would be nice. Allow you to drop from 75% to 50% of your bounty, and an alternate that says you'll have to pay 150% or 200% of your bounty on the opposing side. Independantly controlled, I think, makes the most sense, but it's an idea) This means that getting arrested as a Stormcloak in a Stormcloak hold should have a lower bounty and likely a shorter prison sentence - they want you out there fighting, not sitting in a cell. Same with the Imperial Legion, they want you fighting, not in a cell. However, if you're a Stormcloak sitting in a Legion cell, they want you sitting there as long as bloody possible, because every day you're in that cell is a day you're not out fighting a war.

 

But, that brings me back to the point up top, what driving force is there to complete the civil war? Well, now there's a reason other than just bounty resets (though that will play nicely with this, I think), and that's the fact that any future crimes committed in a hold owned by the faction you're fighting for will cost you less.

 

And if you could hook the Jagged Crown quest and double the values against you if you turn-coat-and-traitor the one you started with, even better. I think the Stormcloaks/Legion would much prefer the proverbial 8000 (6000) gold if you pledged your oath, then became an oath-breaker and gave the crown to the other guys. Also, expect if you've done this that your prison sentence in those holds will be much, much more unpleasant.

 

Which brings me to an idea: Healers of Skyrim. I know, it covers more than just Crime and Punishment Overhaul, but if there were dedicated healers (restoration mages) placed around Skyrim, it'd be nice to go to them and have diseases cured, be able to buy beneficial potions, and have at least the feeling that they exist. They need to exist because we need them in prison because...

 

When you're arrested, Crime Hurts. Health regeneration should be seriously slowed when imprisoned. The idea being that if you're a troublemaker or an enemy soldier, you're going to spend a greater chunk of your time being punished. These punishments chip away at your health, and with health regeneration slowed to 10% or less, it'll take ages to recover. So the idea is, if your health gets too low, you can request to see a healer. Obviously, guard relations takes precedence, so a troublesome inmate or an enemy soldier only gets to see a healer if they 'pass out' during punishments (enforced blackout at 5% health or something, so as to avoid death and avoid trodding on mods like Death Alternative, which I adamantly refuse to play without, because 'death' in Skyrim is not immersive. My character isn't immortal, he's just lucky, and that's somewhat how Death Alternative feels)

 

The idea being, if you get punished and you're dropped below a threshold, you wake up in the Healer's Wing of the prison, being recovered so that you don't die. If you're heavily wounded and you don't have an ill reputation with the guards, a trip to the healer will always be granted. And obviously, you don't want to tick off the healers, because if you do, bad things can, and probably will, happen.

 

Now, maybe at some other time, I'll be able to come up with some basic quest ideas for things to do in prison, and holds they'd make sense in. And some of them will be perfectly set up to allow other inmates to take advantage of them.

[Madrias]

@WolfHunter17

 

That could be an interesting idea, at least theoretically. Normally, I'd expect the Vigilants or the Dawnguard to kill a vampire or werewolf, but... You've given me an idea. (Yes, I know, there's probably a few people already ducking for cover at that word from me.)

 

Experimentation.

 

The Vigilants of Stendarr have long realized that werewolves are created by the Daedric Lord Hircine, and that Vampires are the product of Molag Bal, although not always directly from either. Normally, capturing either 'alive' would be rather difficult, as werewolves tend to be secretive in their human forms and feral beasts in their wolf shape, and vampires typically only come out at night, and blend in rather very well in the day when fed, and both are stronger than the average human. Normally, this just results in them having to kill these 'creatures' because there's no real way to do a controlled test. However, if they hear about this mysterious prisoner who happens to be either a Werewolf or Vampire, they may have a few 'cures' to try that don't involve death.

 

The basic idea is that these 'cures' pretty much do nothing. Maybe they inhibit your abilities when directly influenced by them, but otherwise they leave your lycanthropy or vampirism intact. Essentially, the 'cures' just cause your character a significant chunk of health and stamina damage as a result of trying things, because they're trying to break the Daedric binds of what they're believing just to be Daedric diseases.

 

Now, here's where I have a few branching ideas, because my mindset is... unusual. I want to see things like this in the world and not just when you've been arrested, hauled away to rot in the dungeon, and found out about a little at a time.

 

We'll start with prison, and I'm going to assume Werewolf, though the same could easily be true for vampires. And we'll assume a fairly clean arrest history here, in other words, you're not overly violent, you're not notorious for shifting in prison, and whatever you were arrested for wasn't an aggressive crime. In this situation, the Vigilants of Stendarr would try to "bring you into the light" by using some of their more mild 'cures,' although they'd still cause damage in the process, and they'd be coming to the prison to deal with you, so you'd get visits every so often with the Vigilants. The cures wouldn't be overly detrimental (you're not reliant on your alternate form to survive, and the health penalties could be overlooked for the most part) but they would be a nuisance. The biggest part of making them an annoyance is that they take up an opportunity for you to work against your bounty (essentially doing a job to reduce your bounty and get out earlier) by wasting your time.

 

So, step two is that you are overly violent in prison, or you're notorious for shifting to werewolf / vampire lord form, or your crimes were violent (possibly a result of wolf / VL form), or you've attacked the guards in your alternate form. At this point, the guards want nothing to do with you, and they'll sell you to the Vigilants of Stendarr for the cost of your bounty. So your bounty is paid, but now you're a slave (effectively) to the Vigilants of Stendarr, who will live up to that line, the one that I think goes "Walk always in the light, or we shall drag you to it." You're not leaving until either they find something that seems to cure your form (a temporary thing, though it should be suitably obnoxious, like being locked out of your beast form for 3 days. A vampire alternative could be that you're unable to feed, are effectively mortal again, but you take damage in sunlight. This, like with beast form, only lasts a short while) or they get tired of wasting ingredients on you and decide to put you down. Obviously, this is an event where you're facing several Vigilants of Stendarr while using what little you have of your abilities to survive the upcoming fight. Ideally, you'd need to fight through four Vigilants before being able to retrieve your gear, fight through several more to retrieve your Daedric items and/or armor, and then finish off any witnesses or you might be dealing with this again.

 

So, I mentioned wanting things like this in the world, didn't I?

 

The idea I had on that would be that having an ability to talk to the Vigilants of Stendarr and say essentially, "I need Stendarr's Help." They'd ask what was needed, and you'd be given an option to either say "I just need a blessing" (essentially, the "oops, wrong option" choice) or "I'm a Vampire/Werewolf and want to be normal again." The second choice would have them testing ingredients and potions on you, with much lessened bad effects compared to the prison-grade ones. The idea being that because you've willingly mentioned it, they're giving you Stendarr's Mercy, in that they're trying not to harm you so that they can eventually cure or lessen the effects of what you have. Obviously, there's no curing it, but the side-effects of what they're doing could be a two-part deal. An idea would be that you have 50 more health in your human form, but your beast form is 50 health weaker. Or that as long as you don't feed, you won't burn in sunlight, but you'll be down 30 health. Essentially, the "If you don't use the abilities of your Daedric side, you'll be better off" type of situation.

 

Obviously, for anyone who has Dawnguard, the Vigilants, well, we know what happened to them. Basically, the Dawnguard should be more extreme than the Vigilants, although I think it should be tipped more toward anti-vampire. They're more likely to apply harsh 'cures' to vampires, and settle for silver shackles on werewolves to keep control. Should the player side against the Dawnguard, thereby eliminating these options, then I could see prison being interesting.

 

If you side with the Volkihar Vampires, I could see them paying your bounty and rescuing you by sending disguised vampires dressed as the Dawnguard to take you away as long as you remain a Vampire Lord. Cure your Vampirism, and suddenly you're being 'rescued' as feeding stock (thereby guaranteeing you end up a Vampire again). Cure your Vampirism and become a Werewolf, and find yourself being used as entertainment for the new Vampire Lord's Court, kept in a cage during meal times. Eventually you'll be released, but not before they've given something that prevents your return to mortal form for a couple days, and you'll be dropped off in a major city. Essentially, adding a penalty to the game for choosing to side with the Vampires, then turning your back on them and curing vampirism, and then for choosing to be Hircine's champion instead.

 

Effectively, by having the Vigilants and the Dawnguard/Volkihar being able to take you out of the prisons, the idea would be that your experiences may vary wildly from jail to jail, from crime to crime, and character to character.

[Slade37]

You know I always wanted to see something that probley has nothing to do with your intentions for this overhaul, but I am going to put down my ideas anyways. Even as I type this I don't know excatly what I want to say, but here goes. I always liked the idea of having corrupt rulers in skyrim that would impose ridiculous rules, and regulations on the people. Or perhaps the idea that one could get on the bad side of a Jarl, or another of powerful influence that could make the players life miserable for crossing them. You could end up in jail for doing nothing wrong. They would look for any reason to arrest the player, and if they couldn't find one then they could do something to incriminate the player. Like reverse pickpocketing to plant drugs on the player, or planting them in the players home, and then getting a search warrant to search their home for evidence. Just because they enforce the laws doesn't mean that they obey them, but hey why would they want to be found out for their misdeeds. Why oh why when its so easy to point the blame at another, mainly you. Just an idea that came to my mind, if your interested. The idea could extend to corrupt guards as well, and could put the dovahkiin against the authority figures....

Edited September 10, 2016 by Slade37

[drewsbrew]

You know I always wanted to see something that probley has nothing to do with your intentions for this overhaul, but I am going to put down my ideas anyways. Even as I type this I don't know excatly what I want to say, but here goes. I always liked the idea of having corrupt rulers in skyrim that would impose ridiculous rules, and regulations on the people. Or perhaps the idea that one could get on the bad side of a Jarl, or another of powerful influence that could make the players life miserable for crossing them. You could end up in jail for doing nothing wrong. They would look for any reason to arrest the player, and if they couldn't find one then they could do something to incriminate the player. Like reverse pickpocketing to plant drugs on the player, or planting them in the players home, and then getting a search warrant to search their home for evidence. Just because they enforce the laws doesn't mean that they obey them, but hey why would they want to be found out for their misdeeds. Why oh why when its so easy to point the blame at another, mainly you. Just an idea that came to my mind, if your interested. The idea could extend to corrupt guards as well, and could put the dovahkiin against the authority figures....

Thanks for the input, and sorry for the late response, I've been a little busy as of late. Anyway, some of what you're talking about is already planned, check out the reputation system in my signature... it's a lengthy read, and it has been developing as an idea for a while now, so some of the features might not be covered.

[Aurawhisperer]

My only other suggestion for this mod (unsure if you're the outer source type) is to see if one can "expand" the life in prison in a more "realistic" way with other inmates that, I would say, may not be deem appropiate in nexu's eyes.

 

Other words, loverslab style. Like aggressive interactive activity, whether it be the player or npc giving it to other npc's or player. I know there's a Prison Overhaul mod, but that isn't really great compare to this mod. Plus, that one is 2 years old. This mod apparently is still up to date, and still being worked on.

 

Just an idea though.

[protoculturejunkie]

· Life in Prison: There are now other inmates in prison who will interact with the Dragonborn in various ways; some will be hostile and fight with or maybe even try to kill the Dragoborn, some will gamble, some will want favors, etc.

 

So if this gets implemented does that mean Alduin, Harkon, and/or Miriak wins?

[drewsbrew]

My only other suggestion for this mod (unsure if you're the outer source type) is to see if one can "expand" the life in prison in a more "realistic" way with other inmates that, I would say, may not be deem appropiate in nexu's eyes.

 

Other words, loverslab style. Like aggressive interactive activity, whether it be the player or npc giving it to other npc's or player. I know there's a Prison Overhaul mod, but that isn't really great compare to this mod. Plus, that one is 2 years old. This mod apparently is still up to date, and still being worked on.

 

Just an idea though.

There are actually some features that prison overhaul has that I think were actually kinda cool; getting walked to jail for instance instead of a fast travel, and I've considered implementing something like that myself. I've also thought about having an MCM option that will allow you to choose the prisoner outfit, i.e.; prisoner's clothes, nude, etc. to accommodate a larger range of preferences. Beyond that, all I can say is 'maybe' at the moment.

[drewsbrew]

 

· Life in Prison: There are now other inmates in prison who will interact with the Dragonborn in various ways; some will be hostile and fight with or maybe even try to kill the Dragoborn, some will gamble, some will want favors, etc.

 

So if this gets implemented does that mean Alduin, Harkon, and/or Miriak wins?

 

'Life in prison' refers to 'things to do' rather than 'length of time', to have 'prison life' that differs from life outside of prison. But, even if I did implement a 'life long' prison sentence, I would probably include some way of escaping and being 'on the lamb/incognito' so you could still play the rest of the game. So, no, they won't win I guess. Those parts of the game will still be there if and when you break out of prison. This is meant to be just like any other part of an Elder Scrolls game; there is lots of stuff to do, and you can do it (or the main quest) whenever you want, or not at all if you so choose.

[drewsbrew]

Soooo, I know it has been a ridiculously long time since I've posted anything here, but I just wanted to say that this mod hasn't been abandoned, I've been working on it slowly but surely, and I hope to release a very, VERY bare-bones version of the mod relatively soon. I don't want to announce a release date or anything yet because you never know what might come up, and let's face it, real life always takes priority over mods. Anyway, for the first release, what I hope to have working is an expansion of most of the prisons, secret ways into the cities, and sewers added to Whiterun, Markarth, Solitude, and Windhelm... all of the same cities that you have a Thieves Guild special job in to gain influence... weird, huh? ;) Other than that, I'd like to have fences the player can use in every city. there are a handful of other miscellaneous things the mod does, but those are already done. More info on that later. Anyway, for the time being, I thought I'd post a screenshot of the kitchen from the jail in Riften to give you some idea of the quality (or lack thereof) of the kind of food you'll be able to look forward to in prison. Enjoy! :)