How safe are mods made with FO4Edit?

[Dan3345]

I don't trust TESnip. I am very familiar with using the various TESedits, and FOedits for load order testing etc, but how safe are the mods created with these tools?

 

I'm not worried about viruses I'm talking about things like save game bloat or improper edits messing something up down the road.

 

Obviously each mod is different but there is anything to watch out for, or is it just a roll of the dice with these sorts of plugins?

 

I haven't modded fallout 4 at all yet, and I am hesitant because these plugins made outside of the GECK concern me. Justified?

[ecutruin]

I'd say until the official tools are out (and quite frankly, even then), its always a roll of the dice. It's just a matter of odds. From my experience so far xEdit mods have worked quite nicely and I've had little to no issues that weren't just mod->mod interaction issues.

 

Hope this helps.

[Dan3345]

thanks that eased my mind a little.

[Mystarria]

xEdit has been used for modding Bethesda games since Morrowind if not earlier and gets used even after the tools are out. Not all mods require the construction set or the geck. Since we can't mess with scripts really until the tools are out, there is very little to worry about. At least, that's my general take on it. I'd worry more about console commands and snip mods.

[exploiteddna]

the problem with xEdit at this point is not (for the most part) xEdit itself.. it's the fact that modders are having to manually piece together their mods. Adding new objects into the game, making sense of a lot of new records, subrecords, how each of them interconnect and reference one another, ... a lot of this is made soooo much easier when you have the CK in front of you. So, the primary concern should focus on whether or not the mod author has done their homework, dotted their i's and crossed their t's to make sure that they have considered every implication of the records they have tweaked/created, or taken on a project that is generally considered to be too complex for xEdit.

 

Yes, CK is not needed for many most (some would argue it's not needed at all, beyond providing reference to decode the master plugin -- and from a simplistic view I would agree).. BUT, there are many mods that *should* be made, at least in part, using the CK, because doing it with xEdit is entirely too cumbersome and complex. Then add in the fact that we still are learning all the different components of this new game, new records types, etc.. that makes it *even more* complex.

 

So it's not xEdit that i am necessarily concerned about (even though there is a *very* slight inherent risk in using the program).. it's the authors and the projects they decide to undertake that should be scrutinized. You can classify mods into two main groups: Certain types of mods are well-suited for the CK, whereas other mod types simply don't require CK; you wouldn't use CK even if it was available right now because it is much simpler to do it in xEdit. At this point in the game, it is the former that users should be concerned about. Those mods, more than the others, are at a greater risk of human error.

Edited December 12, 2015 by michaelrw

[TroJanViru5]

Yes there's a risk but you can always look inside the mods yourself to make sure they're clean. Not necessarily difficult.

[exploiteddna]

Yes there's a risk but you can always look inside the mods yourself to make sure they're clean. Not necessarily difficult.

 

Its great that its not difficult for you. But you are not everyone. Some people, the average users, have no idea. The average user does not load their plugins into xedit and check for errors, itms, and udrs. Hell, even experienced modders may not know exactly how the fo4 records are structured yet. These things take time (never mind the fact that some of the records, subrecords, properties have yet to be decoded).

 

For example, I myself havent spent a whole lot of time piecing together the new record types..Looking at the weapons record, see what type of seubrecords it is supposed to contain, how are the weapon mods assigned, where are their records located, what keywords are used to specify x, y, or z .. so on and so forth. For me, knowing the TES plugins like the back of my hand helps of course, but there are still quite a few differences in the mechanics and composition and it takes time to learn the structure and interconnectedness of the fallout4 master.

 

But my response above is not about what I can or can't do ... it is about what the average user should be aware of when using current plugin mods. Asking the average user to do things that require the skillset of advanced users and experienced authors is unrealistic. They arent going to open the plugins, and even if they did, would have no idea what they are looking for.

[TroJanViru5]

I should have specified that when I said "you" I meant if you're really concerned you can always look.

 

I did say there was a risk, and unfortunately, standard users will not have a clue. I'm not disputing that. I started modding last month, before that I knew nothing about modding. What I really mean is that if you WANT to see if a mod is clean, "it isn't necessarily difficult" to learn (standing by what I said, essentially).

Edited December 13, 2015 by TroJanViru5

[Dan3345]

Thanks for the info everyone.

 

I didn't know it was so simple to check edits I guess I should have surmised that based on looking at all the red edits.

 

So I guess my question is now what am I looking for? Is there a guide to this? I checked out the edit guide for skyrim and New Vegas and didn't really understand the good edits from the bad. I have been assuming duplicate edits are very bad and anything with a red highlight is a potential conflict.

[exploiteddna]

Thanks for the info everyone.

 

I didn't know it was so simple to check edits I guess I should have surmised that based on looking at all the red edits.

 

So I guess my question is now what am I looking for? Is there a guide to this? I checked out the edit guide for skyrim and New Vegas and didn't really understand the good edits from the bad. I have been assuming duplicate edits are very bad and anything with a red highlight is a potential conflict.

 

the most comprehensive guide out there, in my opinion, is the FNVEdit training manual (google it, i think u can DL from FNV nexus) that was released for the fallout new vega version of xEdit. It's important to learn what plugins are (*.esm and *.esp files), how they are generally structured, they types of records, subrecords, values, variables, etc. that can be found and where. It's important to learn how plugins interact with each other, why does load order matter, what happens when two plugins modify the same record (how does the game see this information at run time, etc), learn the various types of conflicts, learn about conflict resolution, what is a bashed patch, what is a merged patch.. the list goes on. All of this stuff stays the same for every bethesda game. There are some differences in the *types* of certain things, but the main ingredients are all there and the underlying themes and concepts are unchanged.

With respect to checking for bad mods, there a re a lot of things to look for, much of which is sorta intangible.. the 'youll know it when you see it' type of stuff. record conflicts are not inherently bad. many times a conflict is nothing more than a preference; you just have to choose which change you want. If two separate mods edit the same thing, you cant use both. If two mods edit different parts (think subrecords) of the same thing (records), you can often patch them together by keeping the edited part from each one. Other times it isn't that simple.

 

Common errors are UDR and ITM; 'undelete and disable reference' is about object references that were deleted from the game. You can run a check using xEdit that will scan for this type of 'error' and will undelete the records, instead 'disabling' them (essentially removing a 'deleted' flag and replacing it with a 'initially disabled' flag -- why and how arent important right now). The other one, ITM, is 'identical to master'. this means that a record in your plugin contains an exact copy of a record in the vanilla plugin, and thus redundantly carrying vanilla data lower into the load order, which can cause problems in multiple ways depending on the situation. Anyways, a check can be run for both of these common "errors". Other common mistakes are bad record references (i.e. a record with references that point to formids that no longer exist -- basically the plugin is looking for some information that used to be present but was altered or removed and is not able to be found)

 

All of these are just examples, and may not make a lot of sense to you at this point. After doing your homework and reading up on all of it, it should start to all make sense. when it does, you're on your way to having a level of plugin understanding that is required to be able to find problems. you have to know how everything is supposed to work normally before you can try to find what it looks like when its broken.

 

the more time you spend looking at plugins, spending hours upon hours staring at records and making patches and writing your own mods, etc., the more natural it will become and the better you will be at finding errors, mistakes, or even just opportunities to improve the efficiency of the plugin.

 

The creation kit wiki (which i believe was originally written for skyrim ck, but dont quote me on that) is also a decent source of info, iirc. you may look into that. Either way, the simple answer is that there is no simple answer. The more you undertsand, the better you are at reading through a plugin and understanding its structure, the better youll be able to find the erroneous things youre looking for.

 

The way that modding currently stands now, I personally would be initially hesitant of any mod that adds new items into the gameworld (placed objects). These records will be found under the CELL and WORLDSPACE branches. It can be done, but imo its not something I am comfortable with doing. Any mod that is very complex, adds new systems, overhauls, etc. I would be cautious of. For now, until you get a better understanding of plugins, just open up the plugin of iterest, and take a look. expand the branches, compare its records to the vanilla version (mod version of the record will be in the right hand column, the default FO4 version of the record will be in the left column.. side by side comparison). This will allow you to see what going on. You may not understand all you are looking at. But some of it is self explanatory. If youre in the branch titles 'WEAPONS", youre probably looking at the part that specifies information about the weapons. Look at each record, see what was changed. Read it. You may see something and be like "oh wow why did this value get changed??? what does that have to do with this mod?? this mod is to increase settler limit, so why is there edits to the hunting rifle damage???" stuff like that is very common sense. And believe me, you will see stuff like this. I cant tell you how many times ive come across something and had those exact thoughts, like "wth is this and why on earth was this even changed??"

 

Read, do homework, learn as much as you can about mod plugins (FNVEdit training manual and CK wiki), investigate the mods you use, and use your common sense. Thats the best I can give you. Good luck