Athanasa Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) I support this, after seeing the Brotherhood's true colours after Blind Betrayal, I wanted nothing to do with them and went with the Railroad instead. Thus having to destroy the Brotherhood. Sadly, after destroying the BoS, Danse would not travel with me as a companion.Exactly! I liked the BOS before Bling Betrayal, afterward.... well, they were off my Christmas card list for sure.. As devoted as Danse is how the hell could they leave him with no way to redeem himself? And it's just plain out weird to hear him yell "For the Brotherhood" whil shooting at a vertibird.. Sadly, in this scenario there was really nothing else Maxson could do. He's stuck between a rock and a hard place. Even if he counts Danse as a friend (Danse joined the BoS before Maxson was 10 years old), the Brotherhood is bigger and more important. That doesn't mean I agree with Bethesda's hack-job of a quest, but once the information has reached the Brotherhood, Maxson has no choice. And - I felt - you can see that he knows this, and the decision hurts him. Fr: Scribe Neriah NR-490SSTo: Proctor Quinlan QN-44BPRI've checked the data three additional times to confirm and I'm positive that the DNA sample we have on file for Paladin Danse matches the DNA sample you provided. I'm not certain why you're having me do these readings, but I can assure you that my data is accurate. Could you at least tell me where the sample you found originated from? Fr: Elder Maxon MX-001ETo: Proctor Quinlan QN-44BPRThe information you've discovered regarding Danse is of a highly sensitive nature and we need to proceed carefully. Until I make a formal announcement to the crew, I need you to keep this quiet. I'll have Kells raise the alert to all departments shortly. In the meantime, I need every scrap of data your department can come up with regarding possible locations that Danse may have gone. Once Quinlan has the data on the disk worked out, there's nothing Maxson can do. He morally cannot order the information kept silent. Besides, any attempt to do so would be detrimental to the Brotherhood. Imagine, if Quinlan let this information out? Mutiny aboard the Prydwen. Or maybe he keeps it quiet, to twist Maxson's arm. It doesn't matter, Scribe Neriah knows. Cade knows. Maxson has to act on it. Despite this, he doesn't immediately act upon this information. For the sake of cohesion within the Brotherhood, for the sake of the mission for humankind, Maxson has to out Danse. We've seen before in this game and others that the Brotherhood needs its ideals to be rigid. They feel they need to keep a hard line on their beliefs to preserve themselves. Last time someone 'softened', we ended up with the Elder Lyons situation. Danse cannot be allowed to remain in the Brotherhood for the following reasonsMaxson cannot stop the information spreading while maintaining his integrity This situation has to be played in a way that it does not endanger the Brotherhood's values and hard-line stance against Synths Maxson cannot be seen to make exceptions - it would lead to people questioning his ability to lead (he's 20 years old - "Kid's too young to make tough decisions when it matters.) Maxson doesn't seem to know about the freed-synth Issue - or doesn't want to Danse theoretically has the potential to be a danger. Even if 'Danse' as we know him might not be a traitor, the Institute could bring him back in, carve out his head with a icecream scoop and stick a new Synth in there. (Although, you can do this with replacing normal people too. So it's not that different...) Danse's memories of being a Brotherhood member are probably stored on any synth components he has. So, if gets captured by the Institute, they can download the lot of it. Unlike trying to do that with human memories, it'll be in a straight data form, and it'll survive his death. An easy interrogation. Even if he's not, you can't prove this to the Brotherhood to stop them being paranoid about him potentially going haywire. To prevent paranoia, Maxson chooses to use this event - which could divide the Brotherhood - to instead draw the Brotherhood closer together and united... at the expense of Danse. The Brotherhood is about the needs of the many and the future, not the needs of the few and now. Maxson knows this, Danse knows it. They both accept it. Maxson is certain Danse is an Institute synth - not a freed Synth. So his worry - based on this view - is entirely justified. Maxson hasn't even considered that Danse might be a 'freed synth' (he might not even know they exist as more than a rumour) In talking to the Survivor, Maxson asks the player if they knew Danse was a synth. Even if you fail all your checks, your eventual fallback is: "Did you ever wonder if Danse knew he was a synth?" to which Maxson's reply is that the thought hadn't even occurred to him.So, as much as it hurts, Maxson really doesn't have an alternative. Not when the information reached Quinlan before him. Now, take a look at this. Fr: Elder Maxson MX-001ETo: Lancer-Captain Kells KS-390LCCaptain, I've received credible information that we have a traitor among us. It brings me no pleasure to inform you that Paladin Danse is an Institute synth. I've had Proctor Quinlan verify the data numerous times, so I can assure you that it's accurate. We need to handle this situation carefully, Kells. Paladin Danse was well-liked and this news is certain to create a panic. We do not want this incident to touch off a series of false reports and assumptions that other synths have infiltrated our ranks. The ensuing paranoia could result in a catastrophic breakdown of order and our eventual defeat at the hands of the Institute. Placing an operative among us was a brilliant move on the Institute's part, and we can't afford to underestimate them in the future. When you're ready, I want you to inform the crew and then take the necessary steps to hunt Danse down. Fr: Lancer-Captain Kells KS-390LCTo: Elder Maxson MX-001ESir, I've placed our entire division on alert as you've requested. I'm instructing our soldiers to shoot Danse on sight rather than trying to capture or contain him for study. I feel that it's important we use his execution to set an example not only to our own brothers and sisters, but to the Institute as well. While I'm aware that certain members of the Brotherhood were quite close to Danse, I'm certain you'll agree that we can't afford to allow him to remain "alive." In his time with the Brotherhood of Steel, he's amassed quite a bit of intelligence on our operations and we have to stop him before the Institute throws the switch to bring him home. My interpretation of these messages (especially the messages from Kells) is that Maxson did not specifically order Danse dead. He says, "hunt Danse down", not kill him. Not terminate him. Not execute him. In my head-canon, it's because Maxson isn't comfortable with it. However, I feel that maybe Kells and Quinlan have 'stepped up' to push the issue forwards. For contrast, look at the word choice of Kells. "I'm instructing our soldiers to shoot Danse on sight rather than trying to capture or contain him for study. I feel that it's important we use his execution to set an example not only to our own brothers and sisters, but to the Institute as well." The choice of the word rather may mean nothing, or it may mean that Kells is suggesting an alternative to Maxson's view, or refining it. To me, it suggests that Maxson did not specify shooting Danse on sight. I find it interesting that he also references trying to capture or contain Danse - it seems an odd course of action to even consider for a traitor. Perhaps Maxson suggested them as alternatives? But, given the magnitude of the situation, he can't then deny Kells and say, "No, I still like Danse, don't kill him." [...] Interestingly, if you give the Holodisk to the Railroad or the Minutemen, the Brotherhood never finds out Danse is a synth. The whole Danse thing never becomes an issue. Of course, without Blind Betrayal you can never get max affinity or romance him either. Edited January 1, 2016 by Athanasa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megapatato Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 I support this, after seeing the Brotherhood's true colours after Blind Betrayal, I wanted nothing to do with them and went with the Railroad instead. Thus having to destroy the Brotherhood. Sadly, after destroying the BoS, Danse would not travel with me as a companion.Exactly! I liked the BOS before Bling Betrayal, afterward.... well, they were off my Christmas card list for sure.. As devoted as Danse is how the hell could they leave him with no way to redeem himself? And it's just plain out weird to hear him yell "For the Brotherhood" whil shooting at a vertibird.. Sadly, in this scenario there was really nothing else Maxson could do. He's stuck between a rock and a hard place. Even if he counts Danse as a friend (Danse joined the BoS before Maxson was 10 years old), the Brotherhood is bigger and more important. That doesn't mean I agree with Bethesda's hack-job of a quest, but once the information has reached the Brotherhood, Maxson has no choice. And - I felt - you can see that he knows this, and the decision hurts him. Fr: Scribe Neriah NR-490SSTo: Proctor Quinlan QN-44BPRI've checked the data three additional times to confirm and I'm positive that the DNA sample we have on file for Paladin Danse matches the DNA sample you provided. I'm not certain why you're having me do these readings, but I can assure you that my data is accurate. Could you at least tell me where the sample you found originated from? Fr: Elder Maxon MX-001ETo: Proctor Quinlan QN-44BPRThe information you've discovered regarding Danse is of a highly sensitive nature and we need to proceed carefully. Until I make a formal announcement to the crew, I need you to keep this quiet. I'll have Kells raise the alert to all departments shortly. In the meantime, I need every scrap of data your department can come up with regarding possible locations that Danse may have gone. Once Quinlan has the data on the disk worked out, there's nothing Maxson can do. He morally cannot order the information kept silent. Besides, any attempt to do so would be detrimental to the Brotherhood. Imagine, if Quinlan let this information out? Mutiny aboard the Prydwen. Or maybe he keeps it quiet, to twist Maxson's arm. It doesn't matter, Scribe Neriah knows. Cade knows. Maxson has to act on it. Despite this, he doesn't immediately act upon this information. For the sake of cohesion within the Brotherhood, for the sake of the mission for humankind, Maxson has to out Danse. We've seen before in this game and others that the Brotherhood needs its ideals to be rigid. They feel they need to keep a hard line on their beliefs to preserve themselves. Last time someone 'softened', we ended up with the Elder Lyons situation. Danse cannot be allowed to remain in the Brotherhood for the following reasonsMaxson cannot stop the information spreading while maintaining his integrity This situation has to be played in a way that it does not endanger the Brotherhood's values and hard-line stance against Synths Maxson cannot be seen to make exceptions - it would lead to people questioning his ability to lead (he's 20 years old - "Kid's too young to make tough decisions when it matters.) Maxson doesn't seem to know about the freed-synth Issue - or doesn't want to Danse theoretically has the potential to be a danger. Even if 'Danse' as we know him might not be a traitor, the Institute could bring him back in, carve out his head with a icecream scoop and stick a new Synth in there. (Although, you can do this with replacing normal people too. So it's not that different...) Danse's memories of being a Brotherhood member are probably stored on any synth components he has. So, if gets captured by the Institute, they can download the lot of it. Unlike trying to do that with human memories, it'll be in a straight data form, and it'll survive his death. An easy interrogation. Even if he's not, you can't prove this to the Brotherhood to stop them being paranoid about him potentially going haywire. To prevent paranoia, Maxson chooses to use this event - which could divide the Brotherhood - to instead draw the Brotherhood closer together and united... at the expense of Danse. The Brotherhood is about the needs of the many and the future, not the needs of the few and now. Maxson knows this, Danse knows it. They both accept it. Maxson is certain Danse is an Institute synth - not a freed Synth. So his worry - based on this view - is entirely justified. Maxson hasn't even considered that Danse might be a 'freed synth' (he might not even know they exist as more than a rumour) In talking to the Survivor, Maxson asks the player if they knew Danse was a synth. Even if you fail all your checks, your eventual fallback is: "Did you ever wonder if Danse knew he was a synth?" to which Maxson's reply is that the thought hadn't even occurred to him.So, as much as it hurts, Maxson really doesn't have an alternative. Not when the information reached Quinlan before him. Now, take a look at this. Fr: Elder Maxson MX-001ETo: Lancer-Captain Kells KS-390LCCaptain, I've received credible information that we have a traitor among us. It brings me no pleasure to inform you that Paladin Danse is an Institute synth. I've had Proctor Quinlan verify the data numerous times, so I can assure you that it's accurate. We need to handle this situation carefully, Kells. Paladin Danse was well-liked and this news is certain to create a panic. We do not want this incident to touch off a series of false reports and assumptions that other synths have infiltrated our ranks. The ensuing paranoia could result in a catastrophic breakdown of order and our eventual defeat at the hands of the Institute. Placing an operative among us was a brilliant move on the Institute's part, and we can't afford to underestimate them in the future. When you're ready, I want you to inform the crew and then take the necessary steps to hunt Danse down. Fr: Lancer-Captain Kells KS-390LCTo: Elder Maxson MX-001ESir, I've placed our entire division on alert as you've requested. I'm instructing our soldiers to shoot Danse on sight rather than trying to capture or contain him for study. I feel that it's important we use his execution to set an example not only to our own brothers and sisters, but to the Institute as well. While I'm aware that certain members of the Brotherhood were quite close to Danse, I'm certain you'll agree that we can't afford to allow him to remain "alive." In his time with the Brotherhood of Steel, he's amassed quite a bit of intelligence on our operations and we have to stop him before the Institute throws the switch to bring him home. My interpretation of these messages (especially the messages from Kells) is that Maxson did not specifically order Danse dead. He says, "hunt Danse down", not kill him. Not terminate him. Not execute him. In my head-canon, it's because Maxson isn't comfortable with it. However, I feel that maybe Kells and Quinlan have 'stepped up' to push the issue forwards. For contrast, look at the word choice of Kells. "I'm instructing our soldiers to shoot Danse on sight rather than trying to capture or contain him for study. I feel that it's important we use his execution to set an example not only to our own brothers and sisters, but to the Institute as well." The choice of the word rather may mean nothing, or it may mean that Kells is suggesting an alternative to Maxson's view, or refining it. To me, it suggests that Maxson did not specify shooting Danse on sight. I find it interesting that he also references trying to capture or contain Danse - it seems an odd course of action to even consider for a traitor. Perhaps Maxson suggested them as alternatives? But, given the magnitude of the situation, he can't then deny Kells and say, "No, I still like Danse, don't kill him." [...] Interestingly, if you give the Holodisk to the Railroad or the Minutemen, the Brotherhood never finds out Danse is a synth. The whole Danse thing never becomes an issue. Of course, without Blind Betrayal you can never get max affinity or romance him either. Agreed. Danse should not remain in the BOS if he's anathema to the values they stand for. And without Blind Betrayal, you wouldn't get max affinity with the *real* Danse. However, what if the BOS is taken out of the picture..? The Railroad could reprogram Danse into a new character, thus allowing one to retain Danse in a Railroad-sided ending... Imagine having to delve into the Institute's archives to find Danse's reset codes (Father, I need a favor here..), shanghai him to the Memory Den, have him mem-wiped by Amari, and then reboot his *new self*. He could "awake" from the mem-wipe, after Red Rocket's Glare / Airship Down, in the same state as he was when he was found at the Cambridge Police station. A side explanation of "feral-induced-concussion", "you missed the Prydwen's arrival", "sorry it got blown up while you were recovering" would make (sort of) sense. Sadly, without the input of the voice actor, or someone who can clone that voice and fill in the dialogue blanks, I doubt this plan would be viable :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wunderbot Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 The entire Brotherhood is just weird in Fallout 4, really. It almost feels as if Bethesda wanted players to start seeing them as not only narrowminded jerks, but even outright enemies. Danse might not have a lot of personality since his entire life is just the Brotherhood, but he's still portrayed as a very likeable character who always has your back. The only other likeable Brotherhood character is also the only one questioning where the Brotherhood is headed and whether she wants to remain a part of it. Brotherhood is also the only faction where you're really forced to rethink the ideals of the faction, since it has not just Blind Betrayal but a second quest where you're confronted with dissent and valid points against the Brotherhood's ideals (the one with the stolen supplies). It makes me wonder if there are future plans to turn the Brotherhood into antagonists, because it just feels weird how they're shown in the game compared to what they were in Fallout 3, the undeniable good guys. I wouldn't object to it, since it's a fairly logical consequence of the Brotherhood's dogmatic ideology. They really feel as hated and unwelcome as the Institute itself. But you're right that some corrections should be made. I sided with the Minutemen in the end and figured that Danse would be happy to once more have a cause worth fighting for. But he actually sounds relatively negative about the Minutemen, because his lines just don't change.So... a way too long post just to say that I approve and hope somebody will make good use of all the voice files we have available. Or even just remove a few of his lines once Blind Betrayal is completed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athanasa Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 So... a way too long post just to say that I approve and hope somebody will make good use of all the voice files we have available. Or even just remove a few of his lines once Blind Betrayal is completed. I just wish it were possible to have the "Danse you're a Synth" reveal (and resulting affinity) without letting the Brotherhood know. Scrub the data off the holotape (hey Sturges, you owe me a favour...) before you give it over to the BOS, but also confront Danse about it. Danse runs off to the bunker, you talk him down (or not) from self-deactivating there (disabling certain conversation options). You unlock max affinity with Danse, woop. He asks to follow with you as he trusts you as a friend and knows you're strong enough to put him down if needed (probably can't make voice lines for this, so text will have to do), and requests to stay away from the Brotherhood so he can't accidentally harm them. So, the Brotherhood doesn't know. You continue your journey to destroy the Institute. Danse feels really weird about the whole thing, but he's still alive and not being shot at by his Brothers. By his own choice, he avoids the Brotherhood, or only goes there with you (easily done - basically normal companion behaviour). Once the Insitute is destroyed, maybe Danse feels he is no longer a threat. Or, as you'll be Sentinel at that point (if you sided with BOS), he has a legitimate reason to continue to serve under you as long as you both survive. The player probably has the clout to request this, too. Danse gets to continue serving the Brotherhood (from a distance), we get to keep a BoS follower as a Sentinel, and hearing yells of "FOR THE BROTHERHOOD!" while Danse shoots down Vertibirds is a thing of the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seekingthesun Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 Someone tell me if this works: you must not have finished blind betrayal. Put this in your fallout4/data/scripts/fragments folder. Send me a message on the nexus system if it works for you https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwCbW8O1AnqfYnBmRW9uZmZRMm8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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