Brotherhood Overhaul (Conceptual Stage)

[Vaernus]

 

I don't think the BoS really cares one way or another. They don't see anyone remotely threatening them coming in with the amount of firepower they have. Everyone else is basically "dirty ignorant wastelanders" with pipe rifles. They're here to stop the Institute because they are after humanity's survival. That just happens to line up with the Commonwealth as the Institute is the boogiemen of the area. Its convenience at best, and probably a main reason why Maxson has peacekeepers visiting Diamond City after the main story is over. It shows they do mean the best for humanity, even if they're not the nicest people in the world accomplishing it.

 

The Prydwen arrival message is probably more safety of the ship itself than anything else. You see this giant thing coming in, you might start shooting at it immediately. The ship + vertibird escort + loud message causes you to think twice. Its flaunting power to subdue everyone. Since the Minutemen can build artillery (and this can be done before they arrive), if that information was passed on, the last thing you want to happen is you get shot down immediately. Whereas the Minutemen would hold if your message is one of peace.

 

Probably not, but I imagine it requires them very little effort to take the time to talk to you to bring you over to their side. Even if you say no, they've still gained important information in meeting you about the Commonwealth and the 'General' of the Minutemen.

 

I guess think of it as a backup plan or insurance. Maybe, in their game plan, they intended to promote you to Sentinel anyway if they were to leave the area, assuming you're loyal enough at that point. There's a lot of advantages to this for the Brotherhood, with very little disadvantages.

• If you're already General when the BoS arrives, the radio is probably already full of your exploits.
• You are a great propaganda tool to have as part of the Brotherhood. Maybe you even know this - maybe you embrace it, for the greater good.
• Maybe that's even made clear when they propose the idea. "Your reputation could do great things. With the Minutemen and the Brotherhood working together, we could bring peace to the Commonwealth. The people know about you, the people trust you. The Brotherhood values that greatly. Here, have some Power Armor." And peace is great for allowing the BoS to continue gathering technology, and a flood of recruits.
• You've already proven you can take care of your settlements. The Brotherhood probably needs to have minimal involvement in them.
• You've proven yourself capable at developing settlements - why not develop BoS bases? One less thing for the BoS to do.
• In fact, what involvement the BoS has with your settlements is probably to their advantage. (Build refuelling spots for VertiBirds. They get refuel points, you get VertiBirds.)
• Over time, the Minutemen basically become an arm of the BoS through you, the Sole Survivor. Your Settlers get to see the BoS in all their glory, so the BoS gets fresh recruits.
• Continued presence of BoS Knights and VertiBirds keeps the population subdued and in awe of the BoS.

 

 

I do think there should be more of an opportunity to combine them both. Even if the ideologies don't perfectly line up, the Brotherhood will most likely govern the Commonwealth and want to do this painlessly while accomplishing their goals. The Minutemen want to have the people govern the area, remove the filth like the raiders, and bring peace to the area. Both groups line up.

 

If the Minutemen wanted their goals and ideologies to stay the same, Preston shouldn't have saddled me with "General" in the first few hours of the game. It's his fault if he expected me to be a nice little figurehead. It'd be good if the NPC's tendancy to give you high ranks then ignore you and treat you like a level 1 MMO character came around to bite them in the arse.

 

"I will bring peace to the Commonwealth, by any means necessary. You underestimated me, Preston."

 

 

Oh you're definitely propaganda. Without a doubt. And on top of that, your exploits do get around. Its emphasized when meeting the Railroad, and Deacon mentioning how popular you are (directly calling out if you're the general of the minutemen). So I can see the BoS defining a proper course to integrate the Minutemen into their fold (whether informally or otherwise).

 

That's why I think the current approach to the Brotherhood makes sense. If you became Elder (via the cut Danse content), you'd be saddled down with the same problems (not to mention never having the proper tools in a game to truly make decisions as the leader i.e. the Institute). By getting to Sentinel, you gain independence while not being the decision maker. Everyone gives you the proper respect while still being able to give you work. In fact outside of Rhys still being a dick, there is a level of respect no matter your rank. They ask you if you want to do a mission versus Preston forcing you into a radiant settlement mission. So, quite frankly, with this overhaul, I'd probably be going the route of wiping the Minutemen out. And Preston is to blame for this. They already have that blueprint as well in the Capital Wasteland (which is doing fine) so I don't see removing the Minutemen as not providing stability.

[Athanasa]

That's why I think the current approach to the Brotherhood makes sense. If you became Elder (via the cut Danse content), you'd be saddled down with the same problems (not to mention never having the proper tools in a game to truly make decisions as the leader i.e. the Institute). By getting to Sentinel, you gain independence while not being the decision maker. Everyone gives you the proper respect while still being able to give you work. In fact outside of Rhys still being a dick, there is a level of respect no matter your rank. They ask you if you want to do a mission versus Preston forcing you into a radiant settlement mission. So, quite frankly, with this overhaul, I'd probably be going the route of wiping the Minutemen out. And Preston is to blame for this. They already have that blueprint as well in the Capital Wasteland (which is doing fine) so I don't see removing the Minutemen as not providing stability.

 

Aaaw, I like Rhys because he's a dick. Although, I haven't seen him in a while. Does he always remain a dick? There's something very satisfying in meeting a character that dislikes you and your rapid promotion (because someone in the world should see it for what it is), then - through hard work - having them come to you, apologise later and become one of your best bros.

 

 

Erm... could your custom Paladin person start off like that? "Yeah, so you got here on recommendation. But you still have to earn my respect as something other than a figurehead." Nothing so blatant as that, but... subtle voice tones that suggest mild hostility at the start. Before they see that you actually ARE good for something other than propoganda.

 

 

As for wiping the Minutemen out... Does that mean killing them all, or 'disposing' of Preston and taking over yourself? All for the greater good. But he's just not capable, and he won't back down. Either kill him or imprison him? I'm sure he'll scream and rave about you being a traitor, but he couldn't do the job... actually, no. He has to die. I can't risk him giving me more Radiant quests.

[Vaernus]

 

That's why I think the current approach to the Brotherhood makes sense. If you became Elder (via the cut Danse content), you'd be saddled down with the same problems (not to mention never having the proper tools in a game to truly make decisions as the leader i.e. the Institute). By getting to Sentinel, you gain independence while not being the decision maker. Everyone gives you the proper respect while still being able to give you work. In fact outside of Rhys still being a dick, there is a level of respect no matter your rank. They ask you if you want to do a mission versus Preston forcing you into a radiant settlement mission. So, quite frankly, with this overhaul, I'd probably be going the route of wiping the Minutemen out. And Preston is to blame for this. They already have that blueprint as well in the Capital Wasteland (which is doing fine) so I don't see removing the Minutemen as not providing stability.

 

Aaaw, I like Rhys because he's a dick. Although, I haven't seen him in a while. Does he always remain a dick? There's something very satisfying in meeting a character that dislikes you and your rapid promotion (because someone in the world should see it for what it is), then - through hard work - having them come to you, apologise later and become one of your best bros.

 

 

Erm... could your custom Paladin person start off like that? "Yeah, so you got here on recommendation. But you still have to earn my respect as something other than a figurehead." Nothing so blatant as that, but... subtle voice tones that suggest mild hostility at the start. Before they see that you actually ARE good for something other than Propaganda.

 

 

As for wiping the Minutemen out... Does that mean killing them all, or 'disposing' of Preston and taking over yourself? All for the greater good. But he's just not capable, and he won't back down. Either kill him or imprison him? I'm sure he'll scream and rave about you being a traitor, but he couldn't do the job... actually, no. He has to die. I can't risk him giving me more Radiant quests.

 

 

Rhys recognizes you as Sentinel in the initial dialogue, gives you the proper respect and admiration, and then immediately reverts back to the normal dialogue for the radiant missions. It works for me, as the response is probably due to the fact that he's been arrested a few times for insubordination, and you seem to get an option to punish him for how he acted. I let it go, and he continued as he does. Everyone doesn't need to be friendly, and it works for me.

 

I think the custom Paladin should grow a lot more fluidly than the vanilla companion system. While I felt its definitely a step in the right direction, I think you could do a lot more. Could be a nice way to experiment a bit.

 

Well its one of the long term objectives in the main post. More or less similar to the civil war in Skyrim. Preston takes over as General after you fully join the BoS, and the goal is not to wipe out every man, woman, and child, but to knock out the faction. Once every settlement is taken, and the power is broken, there's not much they could do. It didn't take much to knock out the Minutemen in Quincy. Once Preston falls in The Castle, the people would see the Minutemen are ineffective while the Brotherhood has taken down the Institute, are wiping out the bad elements in the region, and are helping them out. Brotherhood could easily spin it where the Minutemen were impeding the process to keep the area safe, and I don't think the general populace would argue much based on the past.

[Athanasa]

Well its one of the long term objectives in the main post. More or less similar to the civil war in Skyrim. Preston takes over as General after you fully join the BoS, and the goal is not to wipe out every man, woman, and child, but to knock out the faction. Once every settlement is taken, and the power is broken, there's not much they could do. It didn't take much to knock out the Minutemen in Quincy. Once Preston falls in The Castle, the people would see the Minutemen are ineffective while the Brotherhood has taken down the Institute, are wiping out the bad elements in the region, and are helping them out. Brotherhood could easily spin it where the Minutemen were impeding the process to keep the area safe, and I don't think the general populace would argue much based on the past.

 

Or, spin it that Preston was wrong to remove your rank as General (if you were general before joining the BoS - fairly easy as he practically throws it at you) and that he was the traitor for 'removing' you as General because you joined the BoS. Maybe most normal settlements are still loyal to you - Sanctuary probably is. However, The Castle is not. So you take out Preston and his loyalists/traitors.

 

"It's a terrible shame about Preston. He had the Commonwealth's best interests at heart... but he didn't think, he couldn't see the future, and he betrayed his General. Insubordination will not be tollerated, it cannot be tollerated if we are to restore the Commonwealth. Let this be an example to everyone. Ad Victoriam."

 

I really enjoy the idea of playing a character who embodies Needs of the Many style character, where the ends justify the means. A character who does not trust other people (well, except the Brotherhood) to do things right. And frankly, the game goes out of its way to prove us right in this. "Please hero, no-one can save us but you!" I like the idea of bringing peace to the Commonwealth, even if I have to force it. I like to ask myself whether my character will be remembered as a hero or a villain... and whether that matters, if their legacy is lasting peace. Or at least improvement. Freedom versus security... Maybe my character feels that humanity has shown - both in their 'time' and in Wasteland time - that it cannot cope with freedom, and needs security.

 

TVTropes, it'd be cool to play a Well-Intentioned Extremist. It's only necessary if they resist.

 

Fallout 4 doesn't seem to allow this. Oh, it has shallow choices, but you can never really force yourself to see it as morally grey, or even 'evil' for a good cause. I guess the Institute counts, but it's so passive.

 

Wait, hang on. Am I Enclave now?

 

 

 

Well, just did Blind Betrayal. Maxson specifically says, "From this day forward, you are forbidden to step foot upon the Prydwen or speak to anyone from the Brotherhood of Steel." But also that he will spread the story that Danse was killed and his body incinerated. "Know that if you ignore me, you will be fired upon immediately." So as long a Danse keeps his mouth shut and doesn't go into BoS bases (maybe he returns to settlements if you go too close), things should be fine.

 

Except apparently VertiBirds hunt you down, and BoS-Bros casually strolling down the streets shoot at you.

 

[...]

 

Oh. I went and logged on to Maxson's terminal, and found this message. It continues onto the next page, saying "we have to stop him before the Institute throws the switch and brings him home."

 

Which WOULD explain the issue... if the word wasn't spread that Danse is dead. In maintaining this order, it implies that the Brotherhood views him as still alive, despite everything Maxson has said. Why would you have a KOS order for someone that's already dead? Or, you know, it's another oversight from Bethesda. Like you said, wear BoS power armor and put on a helmet and you're a Generic Knight. Wear X01 and clomp around and you're probably one of the Sole Survivor's buddies, friends to your Dear Paladin / Sentinel Bro, and you really should not be shot at.

 

 

 

By the way, you can just say that the ideas I'm spitting out are inappropriate to the feel you are trying to achieve.

 

 

... also, sod it. I'm going to make an entire post for my "Synth Infiltrator" brainstorming, rather than try to shove it in here coherently.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Athanasa

[Athanasa]

Courser BoS Infiltrator Questline Brainstorming

 

 

 

Potential Issues and Solutions:

The BoS runs DNA tests on all new members, keeping a log. Any members 'switched' at any point would be outed by later DNA tests.

Short Term: The Courser infiltrator knows this. According to some research and Google, DNA tests can take around 24 hours. A Courser with access to a stealth boy (and previous biological samples in their posession for just such an occasion) could swap these samples.

Long Term: The Courser sabotages the DNA testing equipment. This may lead to a quest from Dr. Cade.

Voice Actors. I guess you'd need a VA for the Synth and some of the NPCs that actually say stuff, for realism and immersion.

 

 

Plotline

Backstory

At some point, an Institute Courser infiltrates the Brotherhood of Steel. For the sake of not messing with tech, they do not have a Courser Chip. A BoS recon knight is singled out by the Institute as a target, maybe for having a 'predictable personality' that is easy for a Synth to imitate. Maybe this recon squad is one of the forerunner squads, like Danse's lot. Or maybe not. A Courser is created or altered (surgery) to resemble this Knight, and spends their time observing them. When the time is right, the recon squad is ambushed. Everyone is killed, but the body of the chosen target is replaced with the live Courser and the distress beacon planted. This courser has been 'damaged' for the purpose of this mission - a crippled leg, perhaps. Other things are also done to the Courser to help make them appear realistically like a sole survivor of a squad. Luckily, it seems that - apart from the crippled leg - the only other major injury is what appears to be a head injury (or maybe something else? Would this result in a head-scan, identifying Synth augmentations?).

 

Synth Entering the Prydwen

The rescued 'recon Knight' is returned to the Prydwen via vertibird. They are rushed to medical bay, but their condition appears stable. This is prior to much of the Synth paranoia, somewhere between the arrival of the Prydwen and the player entering the Institute. One of two things (as I see it) happen:

a) The Synth is not DNA tested, as there the synth infiltrator phobia is not in full swing yet

b) The Synth is DNA tested. This is done either out of wariness of Synths or to determine what sort of radiation induced mutations the Knight might suffer from

It B is the plot chosen, the synth 'wakes up' (unconsciousness was feigned, assisted by augmentations) and replaces the DNA sample from them with a DNA sample from the original Knight. Alternatively, they might take this moment to sabotage the DNA testing equipment in a minor (on a physical scale) but major (on a technical scale) way. Maybe something like a power surge, frying internal circuits ("I guess the Prydwen's new generator decided to play up.") or something small like forcing small pieces of equipment out of alignment (like breaking the pins on a CPU).

Either way, the Courser is now aboard the Prydwen with no-one suspecting them. Any behavioural changes or weirdness is put down to the head injury. Oh, I guess if there is any monitoring equipment on the Synth (heart rate stuff, anything) the Synth probably hacks the equipment to prevent alarms going off.

 

Quest: A Slight Inconvenience

During the medical examination with Cade, Cade states that he'd normally take a DNA sample for the Brotherhood database of soldiers - for identifying remains for next of kin, you know how it is. Unfortunately, he can't test your DNA because the equipment is broken. So, could you please go to [HOSPITAL] to see if they have some equipment there? It's also probably a good thing you don't get your DNA tested. Your DNA would show up creepily close to Danse, given Danse is a Gen 3 Synth and made from Shaun.

 

Vertibird Pilot Swap

The Infiltrator makes occasional reports back the the Institute, maybe in the form of dropping message and intel Holotapes in bottles off the railing of the Prydwen to be picked up by other Synths. Other potential targets for 'Swapping' are marked. The Synth flirts with a female VertiBird pilot, maybe bringing them down to the water's edge (where Initiate Clarke, the guy with the Feral Ghouls goes). The first few times it's nothing sinister - at least, not observably. In reality, the marked BoS member is being watched from afar to work out what she looks like so another Synth can be engineered to replace her. When the time is right, she goes down with our Synth for a romantic picnic off-duty and is 'swapped'. She returns to duty as normal, nothing suspicious is noted and she is not tested for DNA. If this had happened, the Courser Synth would have swapped the DNA sample from the Synth to one from the original. (Either through stealth, deceit, or drugging of Prydwen crew.)

 

Misc: Duty or Dishonor

Perhaps something could slip into the quest here - maybe some more missing stocks mentioned in notes on computers somewhere, but these are put down to Initiate Clarke and his involvement with the Ghouls. I'm not sure what could go here, but it seems like a good opportunity to weave the quest line in some more.

 

Miscellanious Comments

When entering Med-Bay, there's a BoS member sitting in a wheelchair. If you ask them what happened, they say the legs on their Power Armor failed when they jumped, not cushioning the blow.

Checking the water under the Prydwen can give you a Holotape in a box. Listening to this holotape has the Synth saying that they have been able to sabotage the legs of power armor suits. This also fits with the existing chatter of a Knight with locked-up Power Armor legs in the game, although in this instance the NPCs the malfunction was caused by kicking a Mirelurk to death, it could be in part due to sabotage.

 

Mysterious Deaths

The Courser spends a fair bit of time in the medical bay, what with the crippled leg and all. (They're not going 'home' to the Commonwealth to retire until the mission here is finished, so they're 'stuck' on the Prydwen.) Maybe the mortality rate of wounded BoS members increases, noted in Cade's terminal. Things that they should have survived from. But the equipment does not register anything special about the decline of these soldiers, they're just dying where others have survived far more often. On a technical level, maybe some of the medical equipment has been hacked - to produce too little or too much of the required drugs, while still displaying the correct numbers. If this is investigated, it is likely put down to technical error (like drift in data) rather than sabotage.

 

[... some more miscellanious stuff here ...]

 

Quest: Missing Fort Strong Mini-Nukes

Some mini-nukes are noted as going missing from the Fort Strong inventory. You are asked to investigate, as you seem to be good at that. (Maybe they heard about it on the Diamond City radio. Cue snide comments if you bring Valentine along for it.) However, for all your investigation, you turn up nothing. Theoretically, you could bring Dogmeat a long to try to follow the trail of the Synth. Maybe there are some dead BoS guards there, too, hidden away in corners Splinter Cell style. Either way, despite turning up various clues and whatnot, you make no progress, and are forced to finish the quest by saying, "I don't know WHO took them, but they've been taken." Hopefully, the idea of mini-nukes going missing is extremely worrying for the player.

 

[... some more stuff here ...]

 

[Danse is outed as a Synth]

 

Quest: A Great Inconvenience

The BoS would like you to find some pre-war in-development technology for faster DNA analysis to allow them to address the Synth infiltrator threat. With what they know about Synth DNA being pretty much clone DNA, they now know exactly what to look for to find Synths in this way.

You find the equipment and blueprints, although it's only partially constructed. It'll take the BoS time and research to get it working.

 

[The Institute is Destroyed]

 

[boS reputation continues to grow in the Wasteland]

 

Quest: Ghosts in the Machine

More information has come to light. In this quest, you discover the identities of the Synth pilot and Synth Courser. Unfortunately, before they can be caught, they fly away on their Vertibird with their payload of mini-nukes.

 

Quest: Civilian Casualties

As an act of final sabotage to the Brotherhood of Steel, possibly brought out by malfunctions from emotional overload (due to the loss of the Institute), the two Synths pilot their Vertibird to [PLACE]. Here, they drop their nukes. Almost everyone in your settlement is wiped out, except for any companions, because they're companions (maybe they take shelter somewhere), and a few settlers that survive (for now, radiation will finish them off). When you arrive, they are understandably confused. They say that the loud speakers of the VertiBird accused their settlement of being "Insubordinate" and in need of "Cleansing". Some settlers ran, hearing the same thing. Unfortunately, this poor irradiated settler then dies.

Grimdark Optional: Prevent fleeing Settlers spreading the word. For the Brotherhood. (Maybe links in to later Propaganda you'll need to do to clear up this mess - maybe making Charisma checks easier, as the rumours don't spread as far.)

 

Quest: Blackbird Escaped

Track down the VertiBird. It is found landed for refuelling somewhere in the west - Natick Banks? As you approach, you can perhaps overhear the Synths having a little bit of a mental breakdown in reaction to their emotional response about the Institute. Then you kill them.

 

Quest: Damage Control

As the Brotherhood's "Kind Face" (well... local face, at least), you are tasked with Diamond City (shame we don't have more towns) to address everyone and explain the Brotherhood's version of what happened. Preventing Settlers escaping to spread the word in the earlier mission makes Charisma checks to persuade everyone that "everything is fine, the BoS will protect you" is the truth.

You can also talk to Piper to try to get her to print the news in favour of the BoS. More Charisma checks to persuade her that "Printing the truth would just make matters worse".

Paladin Propaganda, activate!

 

 

Miscellaneous Thoughts:

After something like that - synths going full rogue - I imagine the general public won't object to wiping out the Railroad. Also, I'm right chuffed with the names I came up with for some of the quests. Although, they might be too pop-culture-reference-y.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2015 by Athanasa

[Vaernus]

 

Well its one of the long term objectives in the main post. More or less similar to the civil war in Skyrim. Preston takes over as General after you fully join the BoS, and the goal is not to wipe out every man, woman, and child, but to knock out the faction. Once every settlement is taken, and the power is broken, there's not much they could do. It didn't take much to knock out the Minutemen in Quincy. Once Preston falls in The Castle, the people would see the Minutemen are ineffective while the Brotherhood has taken down the Institute, are wiping out the bad elements in the region, and are helping them out. Brotherhood could easily spin it where the Minutemen were impeding the process to keep the area safe, and I don't think the general populace would argue much based on the past.

 

Or, spin it that Preston was wrong to remove your rank as General (if you were general before joining the BoS - fairly easy as he practically throws it at you) and that he was the traitor for 'removing' you as General because you joined the BoS. Maybe most normal settlements are still loyal to you - Sanctuary probably is. However, The Castle is not. So you take out Preston and his loyalists/traitors.

 

"It's a terrible shame about Preston. He had the Commonwealth's best interests at heart... but he didn't think, he couldn't see the future, and he betrayed his General. Insubordination will not be tollerated, it cannot be tollerated if we are to restore the Commonwealth. Let this be an example to everyone. Ad Victoriam."

 

I really enjoy the idea of playing a character who embodies Needs of the Many style character, where the ends justify the means. A character who does not trust other people (well, except the Brotherhood) to do things right. And frankly, the game goes out of its way to prove us right in this. "Please hero, no-one can save us but you!" I like the idea of bringing peace to the Commonwealth, even if I have to force it. I like to ask myself whether my character will be remembered as a hero or a villain... and whether that matters, if their legacy is lasting peace. Or at least improvement. Freedom versus security... Maybe my character feels that humanity has shown - both in their 'time' and in Wasteland time - that it cannot cope with freedom, and needs security.

 

TVTropes, it'd be cool to play a Well-Intentioned Extremist. It's only necessary if they resist.

 

Fallout 4 doesn't seem to allow this. Oh, it has shallow choices, but you can never really force yourself to see it as morally grey, or even 'evil' for a good cause. I guess the Institute counts, but it's so passive.

 

Wait, hang on. Am I Enclave now?

 

 

 

Well, just did Blind Betrayal. Maxson specifically says, "From this day forward, you are forbidden to step foot upon the Prydwen or speak to anyone from the Brotherhood of Steel." But also that he will spread the story that Danse was killed and his body incinerated. "Know that if you ignore me, you will be fired upon immediately." So as long a Danse keeps his mouth shut and doesn't go into BoS bases (maybe he returns to settlements if you go too close), things should be fine.

 

Except apparently VertiBirds hunt you down, and BoS-Bros casually strolling down the streets shoot at you.

 

[...]

 

Oh. I went and logged on to Maxson's terminal, and found this message. It continues onto the next page, saying "we have to stop him before the Institute throws the switch and brings him home."

 

Which WOULD explain the issue... if the word wasn't spread that Danse is dead. In maintaining this order, it implies that the Brotherhood views him as still alive, despite everything Maxson has said. Why would you have a KOS order for someone that's already dead? Or, you know, it's another oversight from Bethesda. Like you said, wear BoS power armor and put on a helmet and you're a Generic Knight. Wear X01 and clomp around and you're probably one of the Sole Survivor's buddies, friends to your Dear Paladin / Sentinel Bro, and you really should not be shot at.

 

 

 

By the way, you can just say that the ideas I'm spitting out are inappropriate to the feel you are trying to achieve.

 

 

... also, sod it. I'm going to make an entire post for my "Synth Infiltrator" brainstorming, rather than try to shove it in here coherently.

 

 

It could just be an attack on The Castle. I was looking at it more as a true threat to the BoS though. Mainly the anti "With Our Powers Combined" where they are looking to take out the BoS via knocking out the Prydwen (which Preston is the one pressing this notion if you do the Minutemen ending taking out the Institute, and if you're no longer the general, it stands to reason he'd mobilize all settlements to attack). On top of that, many of the Minutemen are following the certain ideals behind it (and have a certain affinity to the Minutemen after saving their settlements), so they would most likely side with Preston over you. Factored in with at least 8 settlements containing artillery, and it would take more than an attack on The Castle to take them down. The Minutemen do seem largely autonomous per settlement, with the "leaders" at The Castle trying to coordinate any responses via the radio rather than giving direct orders. Its very "meeting of the minds" oriented versus a set leader. I could be wrong here.

 

As for choices, I do feel like Bethesda has greatly improved on writing in this game. I felt morally off on all the choices post-meeting Shaun. You've created relationships with all factions, and here you are killing friends in the name of the faction you've focused on. Hell, you practically kill your son (granted he's dying but whatever). I do feel the moves by the BoS are truly for the greater good, and the "voice of the people" between Publick Occurrences and Diamond City Radio seems to line up to the "well we may not agree fully with the BoS, but they came through, took out the Institute, and are cleaning up the area for us" whereas I can see doubt with the Minutemen (they've already fallen apart a few times), Institute (the boogiemen control the world now), and the Railroad (boogiemen are gone but synths still around).

 

Maxson spreads that story so that nobody pulls a vigilante move to take him out. Nobody is going to question Maxson, and this is a prime example of the Lyons doctrine still be in the back of his mind. Traditionally, there would never even be a possibility of this happening. But Maxson really does have humanity's best interest at heart, and is able to have some actual "humanity" involved in how the BoS is expressed to the public.

 

That Maxson log is in there immediately after Quinlan figures out Danse is M7-97 and before Ingram sends you to meet with Maxson. And as for the attacks, that's just the combat system at play without any sort of ability for disguises. As you said, I think having the ability to effectively have Danse in the full X-01, or at least full T60 so its impossible to determine the actual person if they don't talk would solve the problem. Would be something plugged into the overhaul.

 

No ideas is ever inappropriate. Even if an idea may not fit explicitly, it can fit in other areas. And frankly, I'm willing to try everything and see it express itself in the game. The best features tend to work that way. :)

[Athanasa]

It could just be an attack on The Castle. I was looking at it more as a true threat to the BoS though. Mainly the anti "With Our Powers Combined" where they are looking to take out the BoS via knocking out the Prydwen (which Preston is the one pressing this notion if you do the Minutemen ending taking out the Institute, and if you're no longer the general, it stands to reason he'd mobilize all settlements to attack). On top of that, many of the Minutemen are following the certain ideals behind it (and have a certain affinity to the Minutemen after saving their settlements), so they would most likely side with Preston over you. Factored in with at least 8 settlements containing artillery, and it would take more than an attack on The Castle to take them down. The Minutemen do seem largely autonomous per settlement, with the "leaders" at The Castle trying to coordinate any responses via the radio rather than giving direct orders. Its very "meeting of the minds" oriented versus a set leader. I could be wrong here.

 

As for choices, I do feel like Bethesda has greatly improved on writing in this game. I felt morally off on all the choices post-meeting Shaun. You've created relationships with all factions, and here you are killing friends in the name of the faction you've focused on. Hell, you practically kill your son (granted he's dying but whatever). I do feel the moves by the BoS are truly for the greater good, and the "voice of the people" between Publick Occurrences and Diamond City Radio seems to line up to the "well we may not agree fully with the BoS, but they came through, took out the Institute, and are cleaning up the area for us" whereas I can see doubt with the Minutemen (they've already fallen apart a few times), Institute (the boogiemen control the world now), and the Railroad (boogiemen are gone but synths still around).

 

Maxson spreads that story so that nobody pulls a vigilante move to take him out. Nobody is going to question Maxson, and this is a prime example of the Lyons doctrine still be in the back of his mind. Traditionally, there would never even be a possibility of this happening. But Maxson really does have humanity's best interest at heart, and is able to have some actual "humanity" involved in how the BoS is expressed to the public.

 

That Maxson log is in there immediately after Quinlan figures out Danse is M7-97 and before Ingram sends you to meet with Maxson. And as for the attacks, that's just the combat system at play without any sort of ability for disguises. As you said, I think having the ability to effectively have Danse in the full X-01, or at least full T60 so its impossible to determine the actual person if they don't talk would solve the problem. Would be something plugged into the overhaul.

 

No ideas is ever inappropriate. Even if an idea may not fit explicitly, it can fit in other areas. And frankly, I'm willing to try everything and see it express itself in the game. The best features tend to work that way. :smile:

 

Aaah, I haven't done that quest yet. I didn't know the Minutemen felt like that. They've just seemed... very NPC-ish in what I've done with them.

 

I really aught to finish everything first, but I'm holding back on playing EVERYTHING until I've got a new graphics card and survival mods come out. Then I can enjoy everything without feeling like I'm replaying it.

[Vaernus]

Courser BoS Infiltrator Questline Brainstorming

 

 

 

Potential Issues and Solutions:

The BoS runs DNA tests on all new members, keeping a log. Any members 'switched' at any point would be outed by later DNA tests.

Short Term: The Courser infiltrator knows this. According to some research and Google, DNA tests can take around 24 hours. A Courser with access to a stealth boy (and previous biological samples in their posession for just such an occasion) could swap these samples.

Long Term: The Courser sabotages the DNA testing equipment. This may lead to a quest from Dr. Cade.

Voice Actors. I guess you'd need a VA for the Synth and some of the NPCs that actually say stuff, for realism and immersion.

 

 

Plotline

Backstory

At some point, an Institute Courser infiltrates the Brotherhood of Steel. For the sake of not messing with tech, they do not have a Courser Chip. A BoS recon knight is singled out by the Institute as a target, maybe for having a 'predictable personality' that is easy for a Synth to imitate. Maybe this recon squad is one of the forerunner squads, like Danse's lot. Or maybe not. A Courser is created or altered (surgery) to resemble this Knight, and spends their time observing them. When the time is right, the recon squad is ambushed. Everyone is killed, but the body of the chosen target is replaced with the live Courser and the distress beacon planted. This courser has been 'damaged' for the purpose of this mission - a crippled leg, perhaps. Other things are also done to the Courser to help make them appear realistically like a sole survivor of a squad. Luckily, it seems that - apart from the crippled leg - the only other major injury is what appears to be a head injury (or maybe something else? Would this result in a head-scan, identifying Synth augmentations?).

 

Entering the Prydwen

The rescued 'recon Knight' is returned to the Prydwen via vertibird. They are rushed to medical bay, but their condition appears stable. This is prior to much of the Synth paranoia, somewhere between the arrival of the Prydwen and the player entering the Institute. One of two things (as I see it) happen:

a) The Synth is not DNA tested, as there the synth infiltrator phobia is not in full swing yet

b) The Synth is DNA tested. This is done either out of wariness of Synths or to determine what sort of radiation induced mutations the Knight might suffer from

It B is the plot chosen, the synth 'wakes up' (unconsciousness was feigned, assisted by augmentations) and replaces the DNA sample from them with a DNA sample from the original Knight. Alternatively, they might take this moment to sabotage the DNA testing equipment in a minor (on a physical scale) but major (on a technical scale) way. Maybe something like a power surge, frying internal circuits ("I guess the Prydwen's new generator decided to play up.") or something small like forcing small pieces of equipment out of alignment (like breaking the pins on a CPU).

Either way, the Courser is now aboard the Prydwen with no-one suspecting them. Any behavioural changes or weirdness is put down to the head injury. Oh, I guess if there is any monitoring equipment on the Synth (heart rate stuff, anything) the Synth probably hacks the equipment to prevent alarms going off.

 

Player Quest: Find Equipment Parts

During the medical examination with Cade, Cade states that he'd normally take a DNA sample for the Brotherhood database of soldiers - for identifying remains for next of kin, you know how it is. Unfortunately, he can't because the equipment is broken. So, could you please go to the Centre Mass Blood Clinic to see if they have some equipment there? It's also probably a good thing you don't get your DNA tested. Your DNA would show up creepily close to Danse, given Danse is a Gen 3 Synth and made from Shaun.

 

Vertibird Pilot Swap

The Infiltrator makes occasional reports back the the Institute, maybe in the form of dropping message and intel Holotapes in bottles off the railing of the Prydwen to be picked up by other Synths. Other potential targets for 'Swapping' are marked. The Synth flirts with a female VertiBird pilot, maybe bringing them down to the water's edge (where Initiate Clarke, the guy with the Feral Ghouls goes). The first few times it's nothing sinister - at least, not observably. In reality, the marked BoS member is being watched from afar to work out what she looks like so another Synth can be engineered to replace her. When the time is right, she goes down with our Synth for a romantic picnic off-duty and is 'swapped'. She returns to duty as normal, nothing suspicious is noted and she is not tested for DNA. If this had happened, the Courser Synth would have swapped the DNA sample from the Synth to one from the original. (Either through stealth, deceit, or drugging of Prydwen crew.)

 

Duty or Dishonor

Perhaps something could slip into the quest here - maybe some more missing stocks mentioned in notes on computers somewhere, but these are put down to Initiate Clarke and his involvement with the Ghouls. I'm not sure what could go here, but it seems like a good opportunity to weave the quest line in some more.

 

Miscellanious Comments

When entering Med-Bay, there's a BoS member sitting in a wheelchair. If you ask them what happened, they say the legs on their Power Armor failed when they jumped, not cushioning the blow.

Checking the water under the Prydwen can give you a Holotape in a box. Listening to this holotape has the Synth saying that they have been able to sabotage the legs of power armor suits. This also fits with the existing chatter of a Knight with locked-up Power Armor legs in the game, although in this instance the NPCs the malfunction was caused by kicking a Mirelurk to death, it could be in part due to sabotage.

 

Mysterious Deaths

The Courser spends a fair bit of time in the medical bay, what with the crippled leg and all. (They're not going 'home' to the Commonwealth to retire until the mission here is finished, so they're 'stuck' on the Prydwen.) Maybe the mortality rate of wounded BoS members increases, noted in Cade's terminal. Things that they should have survived from. But the equipment does not register anything special about the decline of these soldiers, they're just dying where others have survived far more often. On a technical level, maybe some of the medical equipment has been hacked - to produce too little or too much of the required drugs, while still displaying the correct numbers. If this is investigated, it is likely put down to technical error (like drift in data) rather than sabotage.

 

[... some more miscellanious stuff here ...]

 

Quest: Missing Fort Strong Mini-Nukes

Some mini-nukes are noted as going missing from the Fort Strong inventory. You are asked to investigate, as you seem to be good at that. (Maybe they heard about it on the Diamond City radio. Cue snide comments if you bring Valentine along for it.) However, for all your investigation, you turn up nothing. Theoretically, you could bring Dogmeat a long to try to follow the trail of the Synth. Maybe there are some dead BoS guards there, too, hidden away in corners Splinter Cell style. Either way, despite turning up various clues and whatnot, you make no progress, and are forced to finish the quest by saying, "I don't know WHO took them, but they've been taken." Hopefully, the idea of mini-nukes going missing is extremely worrying for the player.

 

 

 

 

Very interesting. This would be good to spread across the storyline, with the initial stages being largely benign (the Institute is determining the threat level of the BoS), and when the player fully joins the BoS, the actions made by the Courser begin to get more malicious. However, I can see some potential issues here from a storyline standpoint.

 

1) When the generators go live in the Boston Airport (probably about the time Prime is being built but I've never actively looked yet), these make it difficult to get synths anywhere near the Prydwen. Ignoring companions (as you can bring X6-88 onto the Prydwen which makes absolutely no sense and is most likely for gameplay purposes), my understanding from the final Institute missions is that without the player able to take out the generators, they'd be unable to assault the area as the generators both impede the teleportation and are intentionally designed to mess up the synth components that control the synths. I could be wrong here though, and its just stopping them teleporting units in. Will need to investigate.

 

2) When the BoS starts becoming antagonistic towards the Institute, what's stopping this Courser from accomplishing the same goals as the Institute ending using Liberty Prime to destroy the Prydwen? The security in that area isn't exactly monstrous, and if he was another Prime Scribe, it'd be very simple to virus Prime and be done with it all. Which isn't a bad thing really when you think of it. Like the concepts in the overhaul where the Minutemen have the ability to artillery the Prydwen, perhaps giving the Institute a similar option that you must overcome for their end (and taking this a step further, the Railroad) as response missions before taking out that faction really flesh out the game. It would need to be accomplished while working within the voiced assets, so perhaps that special Paladin NPC plays a part in all of this content.

 

Overall its a great idea. Being able to express all 4 endings while supporting the Brotherhood in the appropriate order.

1. Railroad assaults Cambridge Police Station and hijacks a vertibird, arriving at the Prydwen to bomb the hydrogen tanks. Player obviously sees this is Tinker Tom and Deacon dressed as BoS members and takes them out, which facilitates the attack on their HQ to wipe out the rest. If the player does not react fast enough, they succeed in taking down the Prydwen and the player loses them as an option for ending the game.
2. Institute gets an agent inside the Prydwen focusing on using Liberty Prime to destroy the Prydwen. Through various actions, the player has an opportunity to piece together who this agent is, and can take them out prior to them destroying Prime and losing them as an option for ending the game. Ideally this would need to be done prior to the Mass Fusion mission (which would be about the same time as the Institute ending anyway where Prime is tethered to the Prydwen power source).
3. Minutemen endings play out once you decide to focus exclusively on the BoS. They work to take out the BoS holdings, and eventually artillery the Prydwen like "With Our Powers Combined" unless you work through a campaign to take the settlements (especially the 8 that have the artillery and The Castle) from them. This would be post MQ, so wouldn't effect any endings.

This adds a bunch of content during and after the MQ that makes sense based on the factions being against one another. And at the same time, the Minutemen one could still have various options in how it plays out based on the actions made during the MQ (i.e. fully convincing Preston to be part of the Brotherhood alleviates all these problems versus having to only take him and a few others out at The Castle if all other settlements stand behind you as the General). Overall 3 would be a last resort for the Minutemen if they all turn against you and subsequently the BoS.

[Vaernus]

 

It could just be an attack on The Castle. I was looking at it more as a true threat to the BoS though. Mainly the anti "With Our Powers Combined" where they are looking to take out the BoS via knocking out the Prydwen (which Preston is the one pressing this notion if you do the Minutemen ending taking out the Institute, and if you're no longer the general, it stands to reason he'd mobilize all settlements to attack). On top of that, many of the Minutemen are following the certain ideals behind it (and have a certain affinity to the Minutemen after saving their settlements), so they would most likely side with Preston over you. Factored in with at least 8 settlements containing artillery, and it would take more than an attack on The Castle to take them down. The Minutemen do seem largely autonomous per settlement, with the "leaders" at The Castle trying to coordinate any responses via the radio rather than giving direct orders. Its very "meeting of the minds" oriented versus a set leader. I could be wrong here.

 

As for choices, I do feel like Bethesda has greatly improved on writing in this game. I felt morally off on all the choices post-meeting Shaun. You've created relationships with all factions, and here you are killing friends in the name of the faction you've focused on. Hell, you practically kill your son (granted he's dying but whatever). I do feel the moves by the BoS are truly for the greater good, and the "voice of the people" between Publick Occurrences and Diamond City Radio seems to line up to the "well we may not agree fully with the BoS, but they came through, took out the Institute, and are cleaning up the area for us" whereas I can see doubt with the Minutemen (they've already fallen apart a few times), Institute (the boogiemen control the world now), and the Railroad (boogiemen are gone but synths still around).

 

Maxson spreads that story so that nobody pulls a vigilante move to take him out. Nobody is going to question Maxson, and this is a prime example of the Lyons doctrine still be in the back of his mind. Traditionally, there would never even be a possibility of this happening. But Maxson really does have humanity's best interest at heart, and is able to have some actual "humanity" involved in how the BoS is expressed to the public.

 

That Maxson log is in there immediately after Quinlan figures out Danse is M7-97 and before Ingram sends you to meet with Maxson. And as for the attacks, that's just the combat system at play without any sort of ability for disguises. As you said, I think having the ability to effectively have Danse in the full X-01, or at least full T60 so its impossible to determine the actual person if they don't talk would solve the problem. Would be something plugged into the overhaul.

 

No ideas is ever inappropriate. Even if an idea may not fit explicitly, it can fit in other areas. And frankly, I'm willing to try everything and see it express itself in the game. The best features tend to work that way. :smile:

 

Aaah, I haven't done that quest yet. I didn't know the Minutemen felt like that. They've just seemed... very NPC-ish in what I've done with them.

 

I really aught to finish everything first, but I'm holding back on playing EVERYTHING until I've got a new graphics card and survival mods come out. Then I can enjoy everything without feeling like I'm replaying it.

 

 

I cannot relate to the Minutemen at all. Like, at all. Almost as bad as Caesar's Legion. On the one hand, they talk about peace and stability in the Commonwealth, and yet they somehow have the power to A) Destroy the Institute and B) Destroy the BoS using cloth armor and basic weaponry. Immediately before the player arrives, they were completely wiped out by Gunners and everyone backed out. Its inconceivable that they'd have any ability to do either of those in the time frame you're around them. I get them from a standpoint of building up the settlements, but as far as a major faction within the area able to withstand these powers, it makes no sense. Same with the Railroad. To me, both of them are equivalent to the various guilds in Skyrim. Each had effectively a solid main quest, but largely wasn't connected to the main storyline because they did not really have a beef with it (nor could they possibly interact with the Imperial Legion or the Stormcloaks.

 

When I look at the Minutemen, I see their quest line ending after taking over the armory. They've got their HQ back, and can more efficiently coordinate all settlements while having the equipment and manpower required. That's it. From there its gaining all the settlements, patrolling the areas, and supporting any issues brought up by each location. They do not have the ability to build a teleporter, or assault an underground complex of extremely highly advanced technology, nor do they have the ability to take out the BoS (even if the artillery *may* be able to take down the Prydwen). The assault on The Castle and all other settlements would've wiped them out.

 

Now with the player's help, once they control all the settlements, what they have is numbers. That was the downfall of the West Coast Brotherhood. While each power armored soldier takes down 10 Minutemen, there are 100 more lining up. There's a finite amount of BoS members in the Commonwealth. Hence with the long term goal, once they own all settlements and have the numbers to truly assault the BoS, I can see them winning based on those numbers and why the BoS would then demand whether you side with them or us. And you'd need to take down those numbers by divide and conquer. While they may be mobilizing a force to directly attack Boston Airport, the BoS has air superiority and can attack settlements anywhere. They may take Sanctuary first and then work their ways downwards, thereby forcing the Minutemen to support those settlements (or risk everyone breaking off from the Minutemen). Once Sanctuary is held, it is turned into a heavy base and the main force assaults it. You successfully defend and the Minutemen have to retreat and regroup somewhere. It becomes very tactical as you whittle them down.

 

Couple that with using something like "We Are The Minutemen" where they wear proper equipment (including those using T-45 power armor since it supports the Minutemen paint jobs), and you'd have a solid war between both sides that would be very entertaining.

[Athanasa]

Glad you like the ideas, and I'm glad it could spark off ideas for you, too! I LOVE the idea of being at the 'wrong end' of the other factions' end quests.

 

 

1) When the generators go live in the Boston Airport (probably about the time Prime is being built but I've never actively looked yet), these make it difficult to get synths anywhere near the Prydwen. Ignoring companions (as you can bring X6-88 onto the Prydwen which makes absolutely no sense and is most likely for gameplay purposes), my understanding from the final Institute missions is that without the player able to take out the generators, they'd be unable to assault the area as the generators both impede the teleportation and are intentionally designed to mess up the synth components that control the synths. I could be wrong here though, and its just stopping them teleporting units in. Will need to investigate.

 

2) When the BoS starts becoming antagonistic towards the Institute, what's stopping this Courser from accomplishing the same goals as the Institute ending using Liberty Prime to destroy the Prydwen? The security in that area isn't exactly monstrous, and if he was another Prime Scribe, it'd be very simple to virus Prime and be done with it all. Which isn't a bad thing really when you think of it. Like the concepts in the overhaul where the Minutemen have the ability to artillery the Prydwen, perhaps giving the Institute a similar option that you must overcome for their end (and taking this a step further, the Railroad) as response missions before taking out that faction really flesh out the game. It would need to be accomplished while working within the voiced assets, so perhaps that special Paladin NPC plays a part in all of this content.

 

Honestly, I forgot ANTI COMMUNISM ROBOT was a thing. And I just built the damn thing in my game. Oh well.

 

1) In my idea, the Courser lacked the Courser Component, or whatever it was. The thing they use to teleport. This idea mainly came from... well, me not knowing there it actually IS in their body, and the idea that it might have been picked up by the BoS medics at the start of the infiltration operation. For this reason, no Courser Chip. I imagine Synth Components can slip past quite easily - Danse's synth components were never picked up before, and he seemed mostly alright aboard the Prydwen. Although... medical notes on Cade's computer suggest Danse sufferes headaches and insomnia, although it's attributed to PTSD with the whole Cutler thing. Maybe that was actually a result of proximity to generators aboard the Prydwen?

 

2) It may be that the possibility of Prime being rebuilt was never introduced to the Courser, so it has no available data on what to do with Prime. Maybe the return of Liberty Prime had not been something the Institute could have forseen - after all, they had Dr. Li with them. I haven't done the Institute ending, so I have no idea how strong the 'firewall' on Prime is. Although, if you're re-doing the Airport to make it an actual BASE, the security might get a little beefier.

 

[...]

 

Following on from your ideas of being at the "wrong end" of other faction's Final Quest, some post-MQ quests based on vengeful 'remnants' of those factions might work well. I doubt they'd go down quietly - don't Institute synths attack and infiltrate your Settlements if you side against them? I'm not sure if it would be possible to tweak the quests / endings for some of those factions to let certain Major Players survive to cause trouble further down the line (dialogue issues and whatnot), but if it were possible to end up with some "recurring villains" it might be interesting. At least for a few quests until you properly get rid of them.

... I can't think of anything except stuff from the Institute, though. It doesn't feel like there were enough Railroad agents to cause real issues. Actually, scrap that. Your idea: "Tinker Tom and Deacon dressed as BoS members". As they're pretty much limited to guerilla warfare, why not spend their time trying to discredit the BoS? Although, I have no idea if they would be the sort of people to do what would be able to take actions extreme enough - I haven't really touched the Railroad.